IF THE LAW OF MOSES WAS SET ASIDE , WHY ROM 13:9?

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi SabbathBlessings,

I don't mean this to sound snarky in any way, but the direct answer is because language exists outside of the Bible. The writers of the scriptures made use of the common words that people at the time and place were using. We use things like dictionaries when people don't agree about the common meanings of words.

I believe you use the dictionary definition for "Sabbath rest" when discussing the passage in Hebrews. Am I remembering right?

That's my answer, but the writer of post 233 might give a different one.

I don't believe a "manmade" dictionary has authority over "God's made" Holy Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 The sad thing is many believe that or other man-made teachings over the bible.

Thats not to say the dictionary can't be right about some things, it is not the Authority- God's Word is. If it leads people away from the teachings of the Scripture- there is no light in them (which means it did not come from God). If it doesn't come from God, it is of the "other spirit" that we are warned about in the scriptures.


Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

 

[daq]

You have no right to continue to promote the falsehood that I believe in lawlessness.

This is not true, and you know it.

You are free to believe what you like about what the scriptures teach, but you are not free to intentionally misrepresent the views of others.

My application and use of the word lawlessness is applied to the meaning without law. You believe and teach that Gods' 10 commandments are abolished in the new covenant (without law) which is not biblical or supported in the scriptures. How is this a falsehood? - It isn't

I remember one time I used the word Torahlessness in a post and the person to whom I was responding immediately accused me of believing in salvation by works just because it was so obvious that I uphold the Torah. However that's a legitimate meaning of the word anomos, (nomos, law, with the negative alpha prefix, without law, used in this manner in 1 Corinthians 9:21 for gentiles in general, those without law or without Torah, also, yes, lawless and lawlessness or Torahlessness, (without Torah)).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You are correct that the two quotes of mine that you post are different. The particular Greek word for "law" does not appear in the passage, but the passage could apply to many different laws.

Even if (and it's a big if)
Romans says that breaking the ten commandments is sin, it doesn't mean that the writer of 1 John was using the word anomia the same way.

In addition to that, the word "law" doesn't refer to the same set of laws everywhere in the scriptures.

It does appear in the passage as I showed you translated from Greek

From 1 John 3:4

lawlessness
ἀνομίαν (anomian)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 458: Lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin. From anomos; illegality, i.e. Violation of law or wickedness.

 

[daq]

I don't believe a "manmade" dictionary has authority over "God's made" Holy Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 The sad thing is many believe that or other man-made teachings over the bible.

Thats not to say the dictionary can't be right about some things, it is not the Authority- God's Word is. If it leads people away from the teachings of the Scripture- there is no light in them (which means it did not come from God). If it doesn't come from God, it is of the "other spirit" that we are warned about in the scriptures.


Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

Amen, if the scripture interprets itself, and it does, then it is about context, and the context defines the meanings and usage of the words therein.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't believe a "manmade" dictionary has authority over "God's made" Holy Bible. 2 Timothy 3:16 The sad thing is many believe that or other man-made teachings over the bible.

Thats not to say the dictionary can't be right about some things, it is not the Authority- God's Word is. If it leads people away from the teachings of the Scripture- there is no light in them (which means it did not come from God). If it doesn't come from God, it is of the "other spirit" that we are warned about in the scriptures.


Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I agree with the thrust of what you're saying.

In addition, dictionaries can give us a better understanding of the scriptures.

I think we both want to avoid the situation of thinking that we already know everything the Bible has to say on a subject, and then if a dictionary disagrees with us, the dictionary must not be speaking "according to this word".

I'm not saying that you're doing that, just that it's something that we both want to avoid, I'm sure.

 

[Leaf473]

I remember one time I used the word Torahlessness in a post and the person to whom I was responding immediately accused me of believing in salvation by works just because it was so obvious that I uphold the Torah. However that's a legitimate meaning of the word anomos, (nomos, law, with the negative alpha prefix, without law, used in this manner in 1 Corinthians 9:21 for gentiles in general, those without law or without Torah, also, yes, lawless and lawlessness or Torahlessness, (without Torah)).

I agree that it is one possible meaning.

 

[Leaf473]

It does appear in the passage as I showed you translated from Greek

From 1 John 3:4

lawlessness
ἀνομίαν (anomian)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's 458: Lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin. From anomos; illegality, i.e. Violation of law or wickedness.

Well, it appears in the definition for the word that does appear in the Greek of that passage, yes.

 

[expos4ever]

Amen, if the scripture interprets itself, and it does, then it is about context, and the context defines the meanings and usage of the words therein.

How did the author's of scripture choose their words? Did they not use words of a language, like Hebrew or Greek? Do those words not have meanings given to them by human beings?

I cannot believe this needs to be explained.

Note: I am not denying that context plays a role in pinning down the meaning of a word that otherwise has a range of different permissible meanings.

But that is decidedly not what is going on here. If sin were really equally to only violation of the 10 as is being claimed here, then all people pre-Moses were not sinners!

 

[Clare73]

I don't believe a "manmade" dictionary has authority over "God's made" Holy Bible.

It's not about having authority over the Bible.

It's about God choosing the language in which it was written, the words of which language having specific meanings which are, therefore, the meanings of Scripture, and no other meaning.

Amen, if the scripture interprets itself, and it does, then it is about context, and
the context defines the meanings and usage of the words therein.

ONLY when the word has more than one meaning.
Otherwise, it is the meaning of the word in the Greek.

 

[expos4ever]

In addition, dictionaries can give us a better understanding of the scriptures.

I am generally with you but you are being far too restrained here.

Words have meanings given to them by, yes, human beings. So when you hear people objecting that we are using "man's" reasoning just because we interpret words according to their actual meanings, you need to belabour such people about the cheeks and jowls.

 

[expos4ever]

It's about God choosing the language in which it was written, the words of which language having specific meanings which are, therefore, the meanings of Scripture, and no other meaning.

Thank goodness at least one other persons sees this - I thought I might have been losing my mind.

 

[expos4ever]

I'm not saying that you're doing that, just that it's something that we both want to avoid, I'm sure.

Well, I will say it then .

 

[SabbathBlessings]

It's not about having authority over the Bible.

It's about God choosing the language in which it was written, the words of which language having specific meanings which are, therefore, the meanings of Scripture, and no other meaning.

You're making an argument that I am not making, perhaps you weren't following the conversation. I was referring to dictionaries (man-made), not the original language scripture was written in.

 

[daq]

I agree that it is one possible meaning.

Yes, one possible meaning, which I am sure is why LGW always tries to make clear which meaning is intended when using lawless or lawlessness.

 

[daq]

How did the author's of scripture choose their words? Did they not use words of a language, like Hebrew or Greek? Do those words not have meanings given to them by human beings?

I cannot believe this needs to be explained.

Note: I am not denying that context plays a role in pinning down the meaning of a word that otherwise has a range of different permissible meanings.

But that is decidedly not what is going on here. If sin were really equally to only violation of the 10 as is being claimed here, then all people pre-Moses were not sinners!

That isn't quite how it works: the authors of scripture are taking words from whatever language is being used and using them according to the meanings already defined in the scripture, (especially the apostolic writings which quote heavily from the LXX).

This may indeed sometimes be a problem even with scholars and their lexicons in cases where they rely too heavily on ancient Greek writings such as the classics, (a different form of Greek). For example, there are at least four or five Greek words for seeing, to see, and the way in which they are employed in the Gospel accounts is not the same way they are used in the classics or even common Greek: they have their own meanings defined in the scripture by the Testimony of the Messiah, and especially in the Gospel of John.

 

[Clare73]

You're making an argument that I am not making,
perhaps you weren't following the conversation.

And perhaps I was.

I was referring to dictionaries (man-made), not the original language scripture was written in.

So was I. . .

Every literate language has a dictionary, and whichever language God chose for his word written is the dictionary which governs the meaning of each word of the Biblical text, based on grammatical structure and definitions of that language.

 

[daq]

But that is decidedly not what is going on here.

If LGW has already explained the meaning of the term being used, knowing that the term can be taken multiple ways, and you still insist that it is meant in a different way than what has been stated, then is it not true that your complaint also lays an accusation?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

And perhaps I was.
So was I. . .

Every literate language has a dictionary, and whichever language God chose for his word written is the dictionary which governs the meaning of each word of the Biblical text, based on grammatical structure and definitions of that language.

And dictionaries are not above biblical definitions so my original statement stands. I am not referring to the language the scripture was originally written in.

I won't respond further on this so we will have to agree to disagree.

Take care

 

[Clare73]

That isn't quite how it works: the authors of scripture are taking words from whatever language is being used and using them according to the meanings already defined in the scripture, (especially the apostolic writings which quote heavily from the LXX) .

And what about words that were not already defined in Scripture before the NT; e.g., regeneration, foreknowledge, propitiation, forerunner, etc., so where were those definitions going to come from other than the Greek language?

This may indeed sometimes be a problem even with scholars and their lexicons in cases where they rely too heavily on ancient Greek writings such as the classics, (a different form of Greek). For example, there are at least four or five Greek words for seeing,

And whichever one in the Greek which the NT writer used is the meaning of "seeing" in that NT text.

 

[Leaf473]

...belabour such people about the cheeks and jowls.

that's one way of putting it!
Nehemiah 13:25 comes to mind:
I contended with them, and cursed them, and struck certain of them, and pulled out their hair.