Southwest Missouri high school teacher accused of using critical race theory loses job

[stevil]

You're saying that every black farmer who quit lost out because of discrimination?

Did I say that? Did the article say that?

Right...but you did like the racial discrimination Biden's administration was enacting.

I'm no fan of any kind of discrimination. But, I do recognise the racial issues and disadvantages of today caused by discrimination of the past and that even if the rules are fair today, not everyone is playing on a level playing field. Certain demographics have much harder obstacles to overcome.

Turned out that a significant amount of the time, the player with the advantage thought he was playing the game better than the others. Fascinating stuff. He wanted to imagine it was fair.

Yip, so let's say whites dominate the power positions, president, SCOTUS, Judges, Board of directors, hiring positions, wealth etc and that blacks dominate (or at least over proportionate) in poverty, low paid jobs, unemployment, prison sentences etc.
White Republican supporters see no problem, think the game is fair.
Blacks think they are discriminated against, think the game is rigged.

How can the White Republican supporters justify their position? How do they reason that blacks fair poorly in a "fair" game? Are blacks not so smart, are they less law abiding, more lazy??? How do these white republican supporters reason what is going on here?

What nobody talks about is the other experiment run....the fair game experiment. In this one everyone plays a random guessing game, and is paid out at the end based in how well they did. Completely fair.

At the end, you're shown your score and payout compared to the "other 5 people who played". You get the choice of keeping what you earned....or sharing all earnings evenly. If you were shown to be near the top...you wanted to keep what you earned...

But players shown that they were at the bottom would claim the others must have cheated somehow and wanted an even split.

Are you trying to say that Black USA folk are collectively unlucky, that the game is fair but statistically the Blacks are just unlucky?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Did I say that? Did the article say that?

I didn't read the article....WaPo limits articles behind a pay wall.

You said...

The article brings up reasons why blacks have lost out, they were discriminated against.

Well? Are you talking about all of them?

I'm no fan of any kind of discrimination. But, I do recognise the racial issues and disadvantages of today caused by discrimination of the past and that even if the rules are fair today, not everyone is playing on a level playing field. Certain demographics have much harder obstacles to overcome.

Do you think this "level playing field" is attainable?

Yip, so let's say whites dominate the power positions, president, SCOTUS, Judges, Board of directors, hiring positions, wealth etc and that blacks dominate (or at least over proportionate) in poverty, low paid jobs, unemployment, prison sentences etc.
White Republican supporters see no problem, think the game is fair.
Blacks think they are discriminated against, think the game is rigged.

How can the White Republican supporters justify their position? How do they reason that blacks fair poorly in a "fair" game? Are blacks not so smart, are they less law abiding, more lazy??? How do these white republican supporters reason what is going on here?

I don't think they are unaware of advantage....they're extremely aware of it.

They simply have thought this through a little more than you have.

What "fair game" could we possibly create that results in equality over time? I'd argue there is none. The best we can do is procedural fairness.

Are you trying to say that Black USA folk are collectively unlucky, that the game is fair but statistically the Blacks are just unlucky?

No...I'm saying that we know to a fact that even if the game was completely fair, it would not change the fact that some win, some lose, and of those who lose... they will complain about the fairness of the game.

 

[rjs330]

If it was a monopoly game you would certainly restart the game for everyone. In reality it is much more difficult and complex, but certainly just giving everyone the same laws doesn't fix the disparity.

Real life isn't a monopoly game. As a society it's impossible to start over. So you are left with nothing but whining and complaining cause you actually have no solution.

That is the problem all you have is whining and complaining, moaning and groaning over something. All you have is finger pointing and blame gaming.

 

[rjs330]

A link to a picture of a spreadsheet made by some random person on the internet isn't what I'd call "plenty of evidence".



And yet that's the first thing that was posted in my response to my request for evidence. One wonders why something reliable wasn't posted instead.



It isn't my job to review threads looking for evidence to support your opinion.

It is if you access the videos. Go read the other threads. There is plenty of evidence there. But I don't suppose you will because you would rather remain ignorant.

I think it's you don't really want to admit it. I bet you were even involved in those threads and posted on them.

Are you telling me this is the first time you have discussed this on this forum?

Have you not read or seen any of the evidence presented on the other threads?

If so did you dismiss it? And what exactly would you accept as evidence if you dismissed it?

 

[stevil]

I didn't read the article....WaPo limits articles behind a pay wall.

I've quoted the relevant bits twice already.

The article brings up reasons why blacks have lost out, they were discriminated against.

Well? Are you talking about all of them?

I'm just discussing what the article said. Its not my research. But nowhere does it say ALL

Do you think this "level playing field" is attainable?

I think it is possible to bridge the gap, to take action and bring things closer together.
I'm not a defeatist.

I don't think they are unaware of advantage....they're extremely aware of it.

And yet they often get offended at the suggestion of "white privilege" of "systemic racism" and I know of at least one of them that claims there is no problem.

They simply have thought this through a little more than you have.

Nice little adhom there. well done. Great way to discuss topics.
My perception is that some of those White Republican supporters are stuck in idealistic views, and struggle with pragmatism and get all defensive and offended and like to consider themselves (white America) to be persecuted. For them the persecution of whites seems to be the single biggest issue facing White America. LOL

What "fair game" could we possibly create that results in equality over time? I'd argue there is none. The best we can do is procedural fairness.

America can do much better than that. Letting the blacks join in the monopoly game late in the game when the whites already have all the land, all the jobs, all the money, all the power just sets up the blacks to continue on this path of poverty, and imprisonment. Nice if your white, not so if your not.

No...I'm saying that we know to a fact that even if the game was completely fair, it would not change the fact that some win, some lose, and of those who lose... they will complain about the fairness of the game.

Why in your opinion are the blacks losing this game? What is special about this demographic which distinguishes them from the whites?

 

[rjs330]

just discussing what the article said. Its not my research. But nowhere does it say ALL

Okay, how many then? What the percentage?

I'm no fan of any kind of discrimination. But, I do recognise the racial issues and disadvantages of today caused by discrimination of the past and that even if the rules are fair today, not everyone is playing on a level playing field. Certain demographics have much harder obstacles to overcome.

That is true. Can the playing field be made level? We all have obstacles. Can they all be removed?

 

[stevil]

Real life isn't a monopoly game. As a society it's impossible to start over. So you are left with nothing but whining and complaining cause you actually have no solution.

Oh, I do wish you would bother to catch up with the conversation, your remarks are so off base and out of context it isn't funny.

Ana asked me (implied question) if the Biden admin relief package for farmers was extreme. Ana said it was a relief package for black farmers, I'm unsure if the package said farmers need to be black to qualify.

Ana is suggesting that there is no problem and hence nothing more needs to be done and so he thinks a relief package for black farmers is unwarranted.
I have pulled up an article stating that there is a massive problem today facing black farmers and the article gives historical context about how this problem came about.

I'm saying that it makes sense to try to correct the race based issues caused by governments of the past. That it is not extreme at all to try to correct this shame on USA history towards blacks which has caused enduring problems into today's USA.

 

[stevil]

Okay, how many then? What the percentage?

Read the article. I didn't write it.

That is true. Can the playing field be made level? We all have obstacles. Can they all be removed?

Things can be done to improve the balance.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I've quoted the relevant bits twice already.

And I've read your quotes. I don't recall any saying that black farmers lost land or income or jobs to discrimination. They were occasionally denied loans and subsidies.

I'm just discussing what the article said. Its not my research. But nowhere does it say ALL

How about most? Is there a part that says "most"?

I think it is possible to bridge the gap, to take action and bring things closer together.
I'm not a defeatist.

And yet they often get offended at the suggestion of "white privilege" of "systemic racism" and I know of at least one of them that claims there is no problem.

That's pretty reasonable. White privilege is a racist concept. Systemic racism isn't even a tenable concept. It's rooted in some very suspect accusations. The idea that somehow the 3/5ths compromise, for example, has led to discrimination today is ridiculous. Nobody is walking around thinking black people are 3/5ths a person...and the law was repeal or amended or whatever long ago.

White privilege is actually a possible concept as long as it remains abstract and never applied to anyone in real life. It's not simply possible to know what privileges a person has. No one should ever be accused of being privileged because of their skin color.

If we take some white kid out of rural nowhere, whose parents smoke meth and bounce in and out of prison, who is sexually abused and has a learning disability....

The argument goes that if he were black, he would have it worse. And the counter argument is... what about all the black kids who have stable homes, aren't sexually abused, and have no learning disabilities?

Aren't they more privileged than this white kid? Of course they are.

White privilege is fine as a theoretical abstract with no real application. When applied to real people though? It's just racist.

Nice little adhom there. well done. Great way to discuss topics.
My perception is that some of those White Republican supporters are stuck in idealistic views, and struggle with pragmatism and get all defensive and offended and like to consider themselves (white America) to be persecuted. For them the persecution of whites seems to be the single biggest issue facing White America. LOL

You laugh while advocating for racial discrimination against whites. Seems like am issue to me.

America can do much better than that. Letting the blacks join in the monopoly game late in the game when the whites already have all the land, all the jobs, all the money, all the power just sets up the blacks to continue on this path of poverty, and imprisonment. Nice if your white, not so if your not.

People come here illegally from 3rd world nations...and they aren't white...and their children on average do better than the average US citizen.

How is this even possible if the game is so rigged that there's no hope of success?

Why in your opinion are the blacks losing this game? What is special about this demographic which distinguishes them from the whites?

There's a bunch of factors. I think black people have basically had 2 cultural narratives and it's hard to break away from them and accept a new one. One narrative is born out of oppression and slavery, Jim Crow, and discrimination. The other is a celebration of blackness and righteous struggle for equality.

The modern day shows empirically, race means nothing. Any meaning projected onto it is false. I'd say the trouble is that they need to abandon this notion of blackness because it limits what they believe is possible for them. That's difficult, because it's central to everything they've known.

That's really the only way I can explain why these black immigrants from Nigeria and other places do so well. It's not that they don't notice any racism....it just doesn't stop them.

 

[stevil]

And I've read your quotes. I don't recall any saying that black farmers lost land or income or jobs to discrimination. They were occasionally denied loans and subsidies.

For the third time

Looking up this topic I find this article
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/03/08/reparations-black-farmers-stimulus/
Discrimination started a century ago with a series of federal Homestead Acts that offered mainly White settlers deeply subsidized land. Since then, local U.S. Department of Agriculture offices charged with distributing loans have frequently been found to deny Black farmers access to credit and to ignore or delay loan applications. Many Black farmers don’t have clear title to their land, which makes them ineligible for certain USDA loans to purchase livestock or cover the cost of planting, and they have seldom benefited from subsidy payments or trade mitigation compensation — almost all of President Donald Trump’s $28 billion bailout for those affected by the China trade war went to White farmers.

That's pretty reasonable. White privilege is a racist concept. Systemic racism isn't even a tenable concept. It's rooted in some very suspect accusations.

Yip, people getting defensive and denying there is any problem. And yet, blacks have been driven out of farming due to a racist system, where as whites had the privilege to get loans and subsidies and to support their farm ownership.

White privilege is actually a possible concept as long as it remains abstract and never applied to anyone in real life. It's not simply possible to know what privileges a person has. No one should ever be accused of being privileged because of their skin color.

And yet I've discussed with you that managers and execs get lots of their jobs through referals and that referals are offered by whites of whites because they are more likely to associate with whites, and so the whites get the jobs (certainly have more opportunities to get those jobs).
But it seems this concept was not understandable by you.

If we take some white kid out of rural nowhere, whose parents smoke meth and bounce in and out of prison, who is sexually abused and has a learning disability....

The argument goes that if he were black, he would have it worse.

This isn't how the argument goes. This is what would be considered as a strawman argument.

How is this even possible if the game is so rigged that there's no hope of success?

This is a strawman too. Noone has said there is no hope for success.

There's a bunch of factors. I think black people have basically had 2 cultural narratives and it's hard to break away from them and accept a new one. One narrative is born out of oppression and slavery, Jim Crow, and discrimination. The other is a celebration of blackness and righteous struggle for equality.

The modern day shows empirically, race means nothing. Any meaning projected onto it is false. I'd say the trouble is that they need to abandon this notion of blackness because it limits what they believe is possible for them. That's difficult, because it's central to everything they've known.

OK, so I take it that you consider the core problem to be only within the minds of the African Americans. That they are letting themselves down.

So those that have come to the monopoly game late, that are now complaining that the earlier players are refusing to start from scratch, the problem is only in the minds of the late comers, it's not at all due to them coming late and seeing that the established players have already bought most of the properties and already have accumulated wealth.

 

[rjs330]

think it is possible to bridge the gap, to take action and bring things closer together.
I'm not a defeatist.

If you are so positive then you must some have actions that could be taken. So far all you said you you don't have any answers.

And yet they often get offended at the suggestion of "white privilege" of "systemic racism" and I know of at least one of them that claims there is no problem.

What problem is there? What is the current problem?

 

[Ana the Ist]

For the third time

And think about what that says in regards to the other parts of your post. A century ago there were millions more black farmers. Did the Homestead Act remove them? No...that's the time black farmers numerically peaked.

All it says afterwards is they were discriminated against....which is exactly what they were paid for.

Yip, people getting defensive and denying there is any problem.

You seem to think that there needs to be some ratio of each race in each industry.

And yet, blacks have been driven out of farming due to a racist system, where as whites had the privilege to get loans and subsidies and to support their farm ownership.

Not according to your article.

And yet I've discussed with you that managers and execs get lots of their jobs through referals and that referals are offered by whites of whites because they are more likely to associate with whites, and so the whites get the jobs (certainly have more opportunities to get those jobs).
But it seems this concept was not understandable by you.

Well you are talking to someone who never got a job off a referral.

What you don't seem to understand is that doesn't benefit white people. It only benefits one person....the one getting the referral.

This isn't how the argument goes. This is what would be considered as a strawman argument.

Feel free to correct me.

This is a strawman too. Noone has said there is no hope for success.

Then why promote racial discrimination?

OK, so I take it that you consider the core problem to be only within the minds of the African Americans. That they are letting themselves down.

It's more complicated than that...but I think the way they see themselves, generally speaking, is part of it.

So those that have come to the monopoly game late, that are now complaining that the earlier players are refusing to start from scratch, the problem is only in the minds of the late comers, it's not at all due to them coming late and seeing that the established players have already bought most of the properties and already have accumulated wealth.

Refusing to start from scratch?

Let's do a little thought experiment...

Imagine everyone was unemployed, all wealth equally redistributed, and no bias involved in any opportunities. We somehow wave a magic wand and the playing field is level. Everyone is free to pursue what they want.

What would the nation look like a year later? Would it still be level? How about 5 years later?

 

[rjs330]

For the third time

How many times have you been advised they have received over a billion dollars? Is that not enough? What is enough?

And yet I've discussed with you that managers and execs get lots of their jobs through referals and that referals are offered by whites of whites because they are more likely to associate with whites, and so the whites get the jobs (certainly have more opportunities to get those jobs).
But it seems this concept was not understandable by you.

Let's say we just assume this is true. What can actually be done about it? And do t tell me you don't know.

those that have come to the monopoly game late, that are now complaining that the earlier players are refusing to start from scratch, the problem is only in the minds of the late comers, it's not at all due to them coming late and seeing that the established players have already bought most of the properties and already have accumulated wealth

So what do we do about that?

 

[rjs330]

OK, so I take it that you consider the core problem to be only within the minds of the African Americans. That they are letting themselves down.

I think a lot of the problem is arguments like yours telling them they have far too many obstacles.to overcome. When you bombard a group of people and tell them it is so difficult to get a head in life because of:

White privilege
White referrals,
Whites own all the property
White Fragility
White supremacy
Systemic Racism
Slavery
J Crow
Redlining
On an on etc etc. You are telling them all the obstacle they have to overcome, all the problems that stand in their way all the unfairness they have to overcome. It's almost like people.are actually trying to hold them back.

Or like in the case of democrats they are doing their dead level best to keep them dependent. Servants.

 

[stevil]

If you are so positive then you must some have actions that could be taken. So far all you said you you don't have any answers.

As I have already said, I haven't got a team of economists, sociologists, etc. I am not here to present the perfect answer to this problem.

What problem is there? What is the current problem?

And exactly my point. Many on the USA right (in particular White Republican supporters), refuse to even acknowledge that there is a problem.

 

[KCfromNC]

It is if you access the videos. Go read the other threads. There is plenty of evidence there. But I don't suppose you will because you would rather remain ignorant.

It looks like posts blaming the people asking for evidence are spreading.

 

[ottawak]

It's almost like people.are actually trying to hold them back.

It is eerily similar. You don't supppose...?

 

[ottawak]

I think a lot of the problem is arguments like yours telling them they have far too many obstacles.to overcome. When you bombard a group of people and tell them it is so difficult to get a head in life because of:

White privilege
White referrals,
Whites own all the property
White Fragility
White supremacy
Systemic Racism
Slavery
J Crow
Redlining
On an on etc etc. You are telling them all the obstacle they have to overcome, all the problems that stand in their way all the unfairness they have to overcome. It's almost like people.are actually trying to hold them back.

It seems to me that would morivate people even mire to help them find out the truth about the obstacles they have to overcome. If you lie to them and tell them that there are no obstacles they'll feel even worse about themselves when they fail, and less likely to try again.

 

[rjs330]

As I have already said, I haven't got a team of economists, sociologists, etc. I am not here to present the perfect answer to this problem.

So all you have is mindless complaints. Nothing but whining and moaning.

Do you really have to be an economist or sociologist? If you ask me if that what you have to be in order to consider solutions then you also have to be one to cogently consider the problems. Since you are not one then you don't really have any grasp on any problems. You are just quoting facts without context.

It's what leftists do in order to push forward an agenda.

 

[rjs330]

And exactly my point. Many on the USA right (in particular White Republican supporters), refuse to even acknowledge that there is a problem.

What is the problem?