WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[LoveGodsWord]

once a person says they dont believe in Eternal Security, its a wrap, they believe Salvation is conditioned on man.

Faith is the Gift of God and is dependent on Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Eph 2:8

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

No one "believes" Gods' Word if they do not obey what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures.

Matthew 7:21 21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If our faith does not have the fruit of obeying what Gods' Word says it is not genuine faith according to the scriptures. Anything else according to James is the dead faith of devils * James 2:16-26.

Take care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

you believe in salvation conditioned on man, thats works and denies Grace !

No I believe no such thing. I already told you directly what I believe from the scriptures in posted # 1398 linked so please stop pretending I believe things I told you I do not believe. As shown from the scriptures already, Gods' Grace and salvation is "conditional" on faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). According to the scriptures, whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God *Hebrews 11:6. So no one receives God's Grace and salvation if they do not "believe and obey" what Gods' Word says. This of course makes receiving Gods' Grace and salvation conditional to "believing" and "obeying" what Gods' Word says as shown in the scriptures already posted to you in post # 1416. According to the scriptures, our salvation and all of God's promises are conditional on believing and obeying what Gods' Word says. Anything else according to James is not genuine saving faith, but the dead faith of devils according James 2:16-26. There is no such thing as once saved always saved (OSAS) according to the scriptures as already shown through the scriptures (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked). I am still waiting for you to address and respond to the many scriptures in these linked posts above that disagree with you but all I hear is silence. If your not willing to enter into a discussion with the scripture that have been shared with you, then of course I will leave these scriptures that disagree with you between you and God to work through. Of course you are free to believe as you wish and we will agree to disagree, as we are all only held accountable to God come judgement day for the words of God we accept or reject according to Jesus in John 12:47-48. For me only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Take Care.

 

[Doug Brents]

Sure is

And according to Rom 10:9-10, does confession of Jesus name with the mouth lead to, or follow after, salvation?

 

[Doug Brents]

Its you who is not listening. Action does not give life to faith. Action simply demonstrates that faith is alive. I already throughly explained this in post #1406.

And when does faith have to be alive? Before or after salvation is received? According to Eph 2:8-9, a living faith must exist before salvation is received. Which means that the demonstration of it's life (actions) must precede our reception of grace.

There is nothing wrong with getting water baptized as soon as we possibly can after we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and are saved, yet the opportunity is not always there. In the examples in Scripture, the opportunity was there, so why not immediately? That doesn't mean it's an urgent 'do or die immediately or else' action.

You keep saying "after we place our faith in Jesus". That is meaningless if there is no action demonstrating (as you say) that our faith is alive. If there is no action, then there is no faith, and there is no salvation.

The word "repent" means to "change your mind." The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions. Acts 26:20 declares, "I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds."This is the fruit of repentance (Matthew 3:8), not the essence of repentance (change of mind).

I would agree. Yet that mind change, which results in action change, also precedes our reception of salvation, because our forgiveness depends on our repentance.

You are still confusing the picture with the reality. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we read that by one Spirit we are baptized into one body.. This is Spirit baptism, not water baptism. So in what sense would believers be water "baptized into Christ?" In the same sense that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" in 1 Corinthians 10:2. Involved in this is the idea of "imitation" and "identification." Paul says that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses" in the cloud and in the sea, but this does not mean they were literally water baptized into the body of Moses. Think about it.

Then why is it that 1 Pet 3, Eph 5 and several others include water as a key ingredient in the baptism that saves? Why was Saul commanded to get up and be baptized and wash away his sins? If it was Spirit baptism alone that saved, then he could have stayed seated and been washed by the Spirit right there. Why did the eunuch point out water and ask to be baptized? Why did he and Philip stop the chariot, go down into the water, and then come back out of it? Yes, it is the Spirit that is doing the work, just as Col 2:11-14 says it is, but He does the work during water baptism as the Scriptures say He does.

Again, water baptism is the picture and Spirit baptism is the reality. I already previously covered this, but you are not listening.

No, I don't listen to false teachers who pervert the Word of God. Spirit baptism takes place during water baptism just as Acts 2:38 pictures, and Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both say.

That's much easier to accomplish when you are already in church or at an Evangelistic event. Not everyone is able to receive water baptism immediately and it's not water baptism that saves our souls anyway.

That is why haste is pictured in all the cases in the NT. And yes, according to Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:26, and others, water baptism is the point at which our souls are saved.

Absolutely false! These Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE receiving water baptism. To teach otherwise is to be dishonest.

Not true at all. Read it again and harmonize it with Acts 11 and Rom 10:17. What is required for us to believe? Hearing the word. When did the Holy Spirit fall on Cornelius? "As I [Peter] began to speak". Could Cornelius have believed yet? NO! He had not yet heard the Gospel. The Spirit falling on him before his salvation was a message to the Apostles that God had accepted the Gentiles into the Church just like the Jews. This is spelled out in Acts 11:17.

Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith, not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated his faith and saved him and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17)

None of that is up for debate. Because it does not even begin to impact the meaning and relevance of 1 Pet 3 when it says that the water of the Flood is a foreshadowing of the water "that now saves you".

So you believe that His death, burial and resurrection was something that had to happen in order to make it possible for you to save yourself through water baptism + other works?

Absolutely not. We are not saved by ourselves, never have been, and never could be. But if we do not obey Him, He will not save us. He already paid the price for our salvation. But if we do not do what He says, we do not receive the benefit of that payment.

Who did Jesus say would be condemned in Mark 16:16(b) and John 3:18? Whoever is not baptized OR whoever does not BELIEVE?

John 3:18 clears up the error you have here. Those who do not believe are already condemned. Why? Because they have not believed in Jesus. But also because they have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. But you are doing what you accuse me of doing. You take a part of the passage that seems to say what you want Scripture to say, and you hone in on that section. Mark 16:16(a) is very clear. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". This is very clear, unambiguous, and straight forward. When reading Scripture, unless there is compelling reason in the context, it is ALWAYS best to stick with the most clear, simple interpretation of a passage. This is very clear. He who believes AND is baptized will be saved. If you don't believe, you are already condemned because you didn't beleive in the first place. It is not that baptism isn't necessary, but that belief is the prerequisite to baptism having meaning.

If someone truly believes then I see no reason why they would refuse to get water baptized, but a death bed conversion can happen. Just look at the thief on the cross. He believed, but was unable to receive water baptism but was still saved.

He was forgiven by the Lord, who had the power to forgive sin on Earth while He lived, before the Lord's death. Jesus' "last will and testament" was sealed in His blood upon His death. But He could make any changes to His will up to the point of His death. This has absolutely no bearing on our salvation today.

The problem is there have been many people who have received water baptism (in various false religions and cults) but don't truly believe in Christ unto salvation.

I absolutely agree. It is not just the getting wet that saves. It is the heart condition of the person who gets wet. He who BELIEVES AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved.

Choosing to believe the gospel is the act of obedience that saves (Romans 1:16; 10:16) not to be confused with multiple acts of obedience/works which follow choosing to believe the gospel.

Wrong again. As Rom 10:9-10 says, confession with the mouth that Jesus is Lord precedes our reception of salvation. And as you said in an earlier post, confession with the mouth is a physical act. That right there absolutely destroys the concept of "belief only" salvation. It eliminates the argument against "works based" salvation, because there can be no disagreement that this is a physical act, and that it MUST precede our reception of salvation.

 

[Danthemailman]

And according to Rom 10:9-10, does confession of Jesus name with the mouth lead to, or follow after, salvation?

The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith (vs. 8) which we are preaching. *Notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10 - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation -- confess/believe; believe/confess. *Chronologically together lead to salvation BEFORE water baptism.

 

[Danthemailman]

And when does faith have to be alive? Before or after salvation is received? According to Eph 2:8-9, a living faith must exist before salvation is received. Which means that the demonstration of it's life (actions) must precede our reception of grace.

Faith is alive in Christ before the demonstration of it's life (actions/works). Salvation is received by grace through faith, not works. We are made alive in Christ by grace through faith..created in Christ Jesus (FIRST) unto good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

You keep saying "after we place our faith in Jesus". That is meaningless if there is no action demonstrating (as you say) that our faith is alive. If there is no action, then there is no faith, and there is no salvation.

Placing our faith in Jesus for salvation is not meaningless because He is the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 3:24-28) Merely "claiming" to have faith, but no action "follows" is useless and demonstrates that you haver an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14) Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit.

I would agree. Yet that mind change, which results in action change, also precedes our reception of salvation, because our forgiveness depends on our repentance.

Reception of salvation depends on a change of mind which results in faith in Christ for salvation as the new direction of that change of mind. The change in action "follows" our reception of salvation through faith. You continue to put the cart before the horse.

Then why is it that 1 Pet 3, Eph 5 and several others include water as a key ingredient in the baptism that saves? Why was Saul commanded to get up and be baptized and wash away his sins? If it was Spirit baptism alone that saved, then he could have stayed seated and been washed by the Spirit right there. Why did the eunuch point out water and ask to be baptized? Why did he and Philip stop the chariot, go down into the water, and then come back out of it? Yes, it is the Spirit that is doing the work, just as Col 2:11-14 says it is, but He does the work during water baptism as the Scriptures say He does.

These passages of scripture do not include water baptism as a key ingredient that saves. Those verses "on the surface" only appear to teach that at first glance if one ignore the context and the rest of scripture.

In what sense were Paul's sins washed away when he was water baptized? Not literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the blood of Christ by which sins are actually washed away. (1 John 1:7; Revelation 1:5) Here is an excellent article on Acts 22:16 - WHAT IS TRUTH: Acts 22:16--Baptism Essential for Salvation?

Why wouldn't the eunuch point out water and ask to be baptized? We are commanded to receive water baptism after conversion. The eunuch's confession of faith in verse 37 - "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" preceded his baptism in verse 38. In John 20:31, we read - but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name. *No mention of water baptism.

In Colossians 2:12, we read - buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by baptizing the new believer.

No, I don't listen to false teachers who pervert the Word of God. Spirit baptism takes place during water baptism just as Acts 2:38 pictures, and Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both say.

Salvation by water baptism is a false teaching. Spirit baptism took place BEFORE water baptism for these Gentiles in Acts 10:43-48. Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” (DID YOU SEE THAT?!) 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they asked him to stay a few days. *These Gentile believers clearly received Spirit baptism BEFORE water baptism. So Spirit baptism does not take place during water baptism as you teach.

That is why haste is pictured in all the cases in the NT. And yes, according to Acts 2:38, 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:26, and others, water baptism is the point at which our souls are saved.

It's not about haste but availability. Water baptism is not the point as which our souls are saved. More EISEGESIS on your part. Faith in Christ is the point as which our souls are saved. (Acts 26:18; Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8 etc..). Ephesians 5:26 says "washing of water by the word." This is not water baptism as I already thoroughly explained to you in post #1401. Go back and read my post again.

Not true at all.

It's absolutely true. Read it again. These Gentiles in Acts 10 believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues (which is a spiritual gift that is ONLY for the body of Christ - 1 Corinthians 12) and were saved BEFORE receiving water baptism. This is irrefutable.

Read it again and harmonize it with Acts 11 and Rom 10:17.

No problem.

What is required for us to believe? Hearing the word.

Yes, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:17)

When did the Holy Spirit fall on Cornelius? "As I [Peter] began to speak". Could Cornelius have believed yet? NO! He had not yet heard the Gospel. The Spirit falling on him before his salvation was a message to the Apostles that God had accepted the Gentiles into the Church just like the Jews. This is spelled out in Acts 11:17.

In Acts 11, Peter is explaining the events that took place in chapter 10. If you would finish reading through verse 17, you would see they received the Holy Spirit WHEN they BELIEVED ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, not before they heard nothing at all. *Compare this with Acts 16:31, "BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND YOU WILL BE SAVED." Acts 10:44 says, "THE HOLY SPIRIT CAME ON ALL WHO HEARD THE MESSAGE," not on all who heard nothing.

Acts 10:44 - While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. "Began to speak" (Acts 11:15) and "still speaking" (Acts 10:44) are not in contradiction. Acts 10:44 says, while he was "still speaking," which means, he already started talking and said, "WHOSOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS" (Acts 10:43). So obviously, began to speak can't mean, said nothing at all yet, because that would contradict, "still speaking." There is a difference between "as" I began to speak and "before" I began to speak.

None of that is up for debate. Because it does not even begin to impact the meaning and relevance of 1 Pet 3 when it says that the water of the Flood is a foreshadowing of the water "that now saves you".

I already throughly explained 1 Peter 3:21 to you in posts #1359 and #1400. Be sure to go back and read them again.

Absolutely not. We are not saved by ourselves, never have been, and never could be. But if we do not obey Him, He will not save us. He already paid the price for our salvation. But if we do not do what He says, we do not receive the benefit of that payment.

You confuse obey Christ in order to become saved with obey Christ after we have been saved. The end result is works salvation.

J

ohn 3:18 clears up the error you have here. Those who do not believe are already condemned. Why? Because they have not believed in Jesus. But also because they have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. But you are doing what you accuse me of doing. You take a part of the passage that seems to say what you want Scripture to say, and you hone in on that section. Mark 16:16(a) is very clear. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". This is very clear, unambiguous, and straight forward. When reading Scripture, unless there is compelling reason in the context, it is ALWAYS best to stick with the most clear, simple interpretation of a passage. This is very clear. He who believes AND is baptized will be saved. If you don't believe, you are already condemned because you didn't beleive in the first place. It is not that baptism isn't necessary, but that belief is the prerequisite to baptism having meaning.

Once again, there are many people throughout history who may have believed "mental assent" in the existence and in historical facts about Christ, but do not believe in Him unto salvation, yet receive water baptism anyway so your argument is moot and once again:

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Case closed.

He was forgiven by the Lord, who had the power to forgive sin on Earth while He lived, before the Lord's death. Jesus' "last will and testament" was sealed in His blood upon His death. But He could make any changes to His will up to the point of His death. This has absolutely no bearing on our salvation today.

Are you saying that before the Lord's death, water baptism was not necessary for salvation, but after the Lord's death it is necessary for salvation? In Mark 1:4, we read - John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. Now was this baptism of repentance for "in order to obtain" the forgiveness of sins or was it for "in regards to/on the basis of" the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance? *Be careful! John's baptism took place BEFORE the Lord's death.

I absolutely agree. It is not just the getting wet that saves. It is the heart condition of the person who gets wet. He who BELIEVES AND IS BAPTIZED will be saved.

Again, general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) BUT HE WHO DOES NOT BELIEVE WILL BE CONDEMNED. *John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. *Hermeneutics.*

There are a number of alleged prooftexts which are often cited to prove that the Bible makes baptism mandatory for salvation. Some of the most common such prooftexts are Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, John 3:5, Acts 22:16; Romans 6:4, and 1 Peter 3:21. A careful examination of each of these texts in context will show that none of them prove that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, though they do prove that baptism was an assumed initiatory response to the gospel of salvation. In other words, these texts prove only that baptism is regularly associated with conversion and salvation, rather than absolutely required for salvation.

Wrong again. As Rom 10:9-10 says, confession with the mouth that Jesus is Lord precedes our reception of salvation. And as you said in an earlier post, confession with the mouth is a physical act.

It's not believes unto righteousness (still lost) then finally round up a group of people at Walmart next week and physically confess Christ to them then finally saved next week. That is not what Paul is teaching. You continue to miss the point.

That right there absolutely destroys the concept of "belief only" salvation.

What is the only thing mentioned in these numerous passages of scripture in connection with receiving salvation? (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 1 John 5:13 etc..). Only belief. That destroys your concept of belief + works salvation.

It eliminates the argument against "works based" salvation, because there can be no disagreement that this is a physical act, and that it MUST precede our reception of salvation.

Paul is talking about the word of faith in our mouth and in our heart TOGETHER in Romans 10:8-10 and not a specific physical act that takes place a week after we believe unto righteousness then we are finally saved next week. Also belief/confession here precedes water baptism. You just don't get it.

 

[Doug Brents]

The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (together) that is, the word of faith (vs. 8) which we are preaching. *Notice the reverse order from verse 9 to verse 10 - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation -- confess/believe; believe/confess. *Chronologically together lead to salvation BEFORE water baptism.

All of that is meaningless in this conversation. Confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth is a physical act that is required to receive salvation. There can be no argument that salvation can be received without physical action on our actions art. That argument is dead.

Now we simply need to read the rest of Scripture to see if it says that anything else is required to receive salvation. It does, as a matter of fact. Water baptism is commanded, or referenced, in relation to salvation in Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Ephesians 5:26, Romans 6:1–11, and Colossians 2:11-14.

 

[Danthemailman]

All of that is meaningless in this conversation. Confession of Jesus as Lord with the mouth is a physical act that is required to receive salvation. There can be no argument that salvation can be received without physical action on our actions art. That argument is dead.

So those who are MOOT (unable to physically/verbally speak with their mouth) will remain lost according to your interpretation of Romans 10:9,10. Got it.

Question: If someone believes with the heart “unto righteousness” (Romans 10:10) are they saved or still lost?

Now we simply need to read the rest of Scripture to see if it says that anything else is required to receive salvation. It does, as a matter of fact. Water baptism is commanded, or referenced, in relation to salvation in Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3:21, Ephesians 5:26, Romans 6:1–11, and Colossians 2:11-14.

I have already thoroughly explained each of those passages of scripture to you and I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Be sure to go back and read through my previous posts to you again and allow some time for the Holy Spirit to convict you and open your heart to the truth.

 

[Doug Brents]

Question: If someone believes with the heart “unto righteousness” (Romans 10:10) are they saved or still lost?

Belief in the heart leads toward righteousness. It does not grant righteousness. Just as confession of Jesus' name leads toward righteousness; it does not grant it. Salvation occurs when we are washed in the Blood of Christ during baptism as the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Christ.

I have already thoroughly explained each of those passages of scripture to you and I properly harmonized scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine. Be sure to go back and read through my previous posts to you again and allow some time for the Holy Spirit to convict you and open your heart to the truth.

I have read your comments several times. The problem with them is that they do not take into account other passages of Scripture that put the lie to your interpretation as I have explained several times as well. You are not "harmonizing scripture with scripture" because Scripture does not say what you are forcing it to say. We have established that saying something with the mouth is a physical act, and it leads toward salvation (it does not cause salvation, nor does it follow after salvation). That fact alone completely destroys your "no works salvation" argument. Now we consider other passages as mentioned in post 1427 that COMMAND baptism, and reference water baptism as the point at which salvation does occur, and you cannot help but see that baptism is essential because it is the point at which the Holy Spirit removes our sins, unites us with Christ' death and resurrection, and adds us to the Church (the body of Christ). Unless, that is, you are so committed to your personal interpretation and doctrine, you cannot see what Scripture says.

 

[Danthemailman]

Belief in the heart leads toward righteousness. It does not grant righteousness. Just as confession of Jesus' name leads toward righteousness; it does not grant it. Salvation occurs when we are washed in the Blood of Christ during baptism as the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Christ.

Belief in the heart does grant righteousness. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputed righteousness apart from works. All BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) *Now allow that to sink in.

I have read your comments several times. The problem with them is that they do not take into account other passages of Scripture that put the lie to your interpretation as I have explained several times as well. You are not "harmonizing scripture with scripture" because Scripture does not say what you are forcing it to say. We have established that saying something with the mouth is a physical act, and it leads toward salvation (it does not cause salvation, nor does it follow after salvation). That fact alone completely destroys your "no works salvation" argument. Now we consider other passages as mentioned in post 1427 that COMMAND baptism, and reference water baptism as the point at which salvation does occur, and you cannot help but see that baptism is essential because it is the point at which the Holy Spirit removes our sins, unites us with Christ' death and resurrection, and adds us to the Church (the body of Christ). Unless, that is, you are so committed to your personal interpretation and doctrine, you cannot see what Scripture says.

It’s you who is so committed to your personal interpretation and doctrine that you cannot hear what the Scriptures say.

 

[Doug Brents]

Belief in the heart does grant righteousness. Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputed righteousness apart from works. All BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:43-47) *Now allow that to sink in.

As it says, his FAITH is accounted for righteousness. Faith is not real unless it has action. As James says, you say you have faith? Prove it. Show your faith without action (you can't do it). I will show faith in my action (it is the only way to show faith). Without that real, alive, active, evidence producing faith you cannot please God. You say faith can be alive before action is taken, so you are saying that the body that God made was alive before He breathed into it the spirit? That cannot be, because you already said that it is the spirit which gives life to the body. This is exactly the analogy that James gives. "
And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

 

[Danthemailman]

As it says, his FAITH is accounted for righteousness.

Yes, FAITH is accounted for righteousness and not faith and works. (Romans 4:5-6)

Faith is not real unless it has action.

Faith demonstrates that it’s real through action. Faith does not produce action in order to become real but BECAUSE it’s real. You have this backwards because you teach salvation by works.

As James says, you say you have faith? Prove it. Show your faith without action (you can't do it). I will show faith in my action (it is the only way to show faith).

Yes, we show our faith by our works, but we do not establish faith by our works. Big difference. Works are the fruit, by product and demonstrative evidence of faith.

Without that real, alive, active, evidence producing faith you cannot please God.

Without faith it’s impossible to please God no matter how much action that you try to conjure up through the flesh in a vain effort to obtain salvation by works.

You say faith can be alive before action is taken, so you are saying that the body that God made was alive before He breathed into it the spirit?

Straw man argument. You say dead faith produces works in order to become a living faith and the works are the source of life in faith which is the same thing as saying that a dead tree produces fruit in order to become a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. Of course this is completely illogical and ridiculous.

That cannot be, because you already said that it is the spirit which gives life to the body. This is exactly the analogy that James gives.

The Spirit does give life to the body but you keep missing the big picture. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) This is not hard to understand. It’s just hard for you to ACCEPT.

And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. Once again, James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.."The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified,." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

 

[Brightfame52]

No one "believes" Gods' Word if they do not obey what Gods' Word says according to the scriptures.

Matthew 7:21 21, Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If our faith does not have the fruit of obeying what Gods' Word says it is not genuine faith according to the scriptures. Anything else according to James is the dead faith of devils * James 2:16-26.

Take care.

Like I said, once a person rejects the eternal security of the saint, or for anyone Christ died for, it reveals they are trusting in themselves, their works.

 

[Brightfame52]

No I believe no such thing. I already told you directly what I believe from the scriptures in posted # 1398 linked so please stop pretending I believe things I told you I do not believe. As shown from the scriptures already, Gods' Grace and salvation is "conditional" on faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). According to the scriptures, whatsoever is not of faith is sin *Romans 14:23 and without faith it is impossible to please God *Hebrews 11:6. So no one receives God's Grace and salvation if they do not "believe and obey" what Gods' Word says. This of course makes receiving Gods' Grace and salvation conditional to "believing" and "obeying" what Gods' Word says as shown in the scriptures already posted to you in post # 1416. According to the scriptures, our salvation and all of God's promises are conditional on believing and obeying what Gods' Word says. Anything else according to James is not genuine saving faith, but the dead faith of devils according James 2:16-26. There is no such thing as once saved always saved (OSAS) according to the scriptures as already shown through the scriptures (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked). I am still waiting for you to address and respond to the many scriptures in these linked posts above that disagree with you but all I hear is silence. If your not willing to enter into a discussion with the scripture that have been shared with you, then of course I will leave these scriptures that disagree with you between you and God to work through. Of course you are free to believe as you wish and we will agree to disagree, as we are all only held accountable to God come judgement day for the words of God we accept or reject according to Jesus in John 12:47-48. For me only Gods' Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Take Care.

You do believe salvation is conditioned on man, you dont believe in eternal security. You admit that

 

[Danthemailman]

Like I said, once a person rejects the eternal security of the saint, or for anyone Christ died for, it reveals they are trusting in themselves, their works.

Anyone who trusts in their works for salvation will automatically reject eternal security of the saint because they are trusting in their works/performance/law keeping efforts etc.. for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9)

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You do believe salvation is conditioned on man, you dont believe in eternal security. You admit that

Edit

No not really. According to the scriptures, Gods' Grace and salvation are a free gift given by God that we receive through faith and there is nothing we can do to earn it (Ephesians 2:8-9). The condition for receiving Gods' free gift of Grace and eternal life however is "faith". Therefore receiving Gods' Grace and salvation are conditional to believing and obeying what God's Word says as shown in James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21. Further scriptures support is provided to you in post # 1398 linked. The fruit of genuine faith is obeying what Gods 'Word says. As shown from the scriptures already, Gods' Grace and salvation are "conditional" on faith (Ephesians 2:8-9) and genuine faith obeys what Gods' Word says *James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21 see also Hebrews 11. If you believe that you can believe God's Word but not do what God's what says then that is a faith that has no fruit and one that James calls the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. That is a false teaching that is not biblical.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Like I said, once a person rejects the eternal security of the saint, or for anyone Christ died for, it reveals they are trusting in themselves, their works.

There is no such thing as eternal security. It is a false teaching that is not biblical as shown in the scriptures, that you refuse to discuss with me (here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked). All you have provided is your words unsupported by scripture bearing false witness to what I believe so we will agree to disagree.

Take Care

 

[Gregory Thompson]

No, I believe no such thing. I already told you directly what I believe from the scriptures in posted # 1398 linked. As shown from the scriptures already, Gods' Grace and salvation is "conditional" on faith (Ephesians 2:8-9). If you believe that you can believe God's Word but not do what God's what says then your promoting what James calls the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. That is a false teaching that is not biblical.

There is no such thing as eternal security. It is a false teaching that is not biblical as shown in the scriptures, that you refuse to discuss with me (see here; here; here; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked).

This is confusing, you emphatically say you do not believe in conditional salvation, and then state quoting yourself that it is the only scriptural teachings.

If people are saved by works, then it is conditioned on man saving himself instead of God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

This is confusing, you emphatically say you do not believe in conditional salvation, and then state quoting yourself that it is the only scriptural teachings. If people are saved by works, then it is conditioned on man saving himself instead of God.

No, I have said no such thing. I have said no where that I do not believe in conditional salvation. If you read the linked posts inside the post you are quoting from you would know this. I have said I do not believe in OSAS which is what your friends are promoting, because according to the scriptures, Gods' Grace and salvation are all conditional on believing and following what Gods' Word says. Your probably best to read the linked posts to follow what the conversation was about earlier if you are interested. For example what I believe from the scriptures and Gods' Grace and faith was posted in post # 1398 linked. Why I believe OSAS is not biblical is shown from the scriptures here; here; here linked; with scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked (and elsewhere). I can see how my earlier post you quoted as a response to someone else might be confusing if you were not following the conversation through though. So please forgive me as it is late my time. I will make some edits to the earlier post for clarity. Thanks.

Take Care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Anyone who trusts in their works for salvation will automatically reject eternal security of the saint because they are trusting in their works/performance/law keeping efforts etc.. for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone. (Romans 4:5-6; Philippians 3:9)

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

According to you if anyone does not believe in once saved always saved (OSAS) then they are automatically according to you trusting in "their works/performance/law keeping efforts etc.. for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone."? I would put it to you that according to the scriptures, your statement is not truthful and furthermore, if our faith does not have the fruit of obedience to what Gods' Word says (works) then it is not genuine faith but as James calls it the dead faith of devils in James 2:16-26. Genuine faith therefore has the fruit of obeying what God's Word says and what it really means to trust in Christ (the Word of God) alone. *see Matthew 7:21 and Hebrews 11. According to the scriptures, if someone is really trusting and believing Gods Word alone and in Christ alone it is Gods' Spirit that works through them as they have faith in God's Word and believe what God's Word says as God's Spirit works through His Word as we believe and seek to follow what it says in John 6:63. Genuine faith therefore leads us to action to walk in Gods' Spirit *Galatians 5:16 which produces the fruit of faith (obedience). According to the scriptures, "it is God who works in those who believe both to will and to do of His own good pleasure *Philippians 2:13; see also Galatians 5:16 as we have faith Romans 3:31; see also 1 John 5:2-4 and without Jesus and His Spirit working through us we can do nothing *John 15:1-5. I would also put it to you that if OSAS was true no believer would be warned against sin and unbelief and further warned against departing the faith into sin and unbelief as shown in the scriptures already shared in this OP from Hebrews 6:4-8 and Hebrews 10:26-39 and in more scripture detail here; here; here linked; with further scriptures provided for conditional salvation here linked (and elsewhere). According to the scriptures already provided we can indeed depart the faith as believer and become unbelievers by our own free choice and throw away our God's gift of everlasting life. Even the very scripture you quote in the post from Psalms 37:28 is in disagreement with you here as the wicked according to the scriptures are those who do not believe and obey what Gods' Word says *see Proverbs 28:9; 1 John 2:3-4; James 2:16-26; Matthew 7:21; Hebrews 11 while even John says how we know that we know God is by being obedient to what God's Word says in 1 John 2:3-4.

Take Care.