Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[Christopher0121]

Talking about individuals here,

Are you sure that's talking about individuals? He's speaking to his apostles as a group, is it possible he means the spirit will guide them as a group?

I myself am undecided on this. It can be seen as the major difference between the Catholic/Orthodox approach and the Protestant approach.

It relates to the thread topic in this way: who has the authority to say what laws ended at the cross, the church or the individual?

Very important question.

However, you're probably going to get many different answers to this question. More than would admit it actually leave such interpretations up to themselves if they're honest. Many more will most assuredly somehow put that authority with their given church or denomination. But God isn't the author of confusion. God not only provided us the Bible, but God also provided us a Church to assist with understanding and properly interpreting that Bible. While the Bible is infallible, without a final authority on interpretation and practice... the Bible can be made to say whatever any individual wants it to say... and no private or personal interpretation is infallible.

Here's my understanding...

Jesus said something very important to Peter that many try to gloss over or redefine. Let's take a look...

Matthew 16:18-19
New Catholic Bible
18 "And I say to you: You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld will not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”​

What does this phrase mean...?

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."?​

Obviously having the "keys of the kingdom of heaven" gives one authority to "bind and loose". But what does this, "binding and loosing" mean? Jesus refers to this when discussing the Pharisees...

Matthew 23:3-5
New Catholic Bible
3 Therefore, be careful to do whatever they tell you, but do not follow their example, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy burdens that are difficult to bear and lay them on the shoulders of others, but they will not lift a finger to be of assistance.
5 “Everything they do is meant to attract the attention of others. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels.​

To the first century Jewish mind "binding and loosing" was related to the authority to establish proper interpretation of Torah and Jewish practice. The Jewish Encyclopedia puts it this way...

Binding and loosing (Hebrew, asar ve-hittir) . . . Rabbinical term for ‘forbidding and permitting'. The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees. Under Queen Alexandra, the Pharisees, says Josephus (Wars of the Jews 1:5:2), “became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit whom they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind.” . . . The various schools had the power “to bind and to loose”; that is, to forbid and to permit (Talmud: Chagigah 3b); and they could also bind any day by declaring it a fast day (Talmud: Ta’anit 12a). . . . This power and authority, vested in the rabbinical body of each age of the Sanhedrin, received its ratification and final sanction from the celestial court of justice (Sifra, Emor, 9; Talmud: Makkot 23b).​

The personal pronouns and emphasis on "this Rock" and the changing of Simon's name to "Peter" meaning "rock" firmly means this authority was given specifically to Peter. So, essentially Jesus is appointing Peter the earthly authority to "bind and loose" to "asar ve-hittir", to establish Scriptural interpretation and Christian practice, to be head of the Church.

In the Second Epistles of Clement to James II it is recorded that Peter transferred this authority prior to his death...

“I communicate to him (St Linus) the power of binding and loosing so that, with respect to everything which he shall ordain in the earth, it shall be decreed in the heavens; for he shall bind what ought to be bound and loose what ought to be loosed as knowing the rule of the Church.” (3:215)​

What all this means is... Heaven follows the lead of the Bishop or Shepherd of the Church. And this office has been handed down in successive continuity from Peter, all the way down through history, to... Pope Francis. This doesn't mean that these men were always godly. It doesn't mean that they were always correct. However, it does mean that these men are the Christ appointed authorities. The office of Peter (aka Seat of Peter) is to be honored and respected for the authority that Christ invested in it. Even though many times the Magisterium has chosen to correct Papal error after a Pope's term has ended. It's kinda like the Office of President. We honor the office and authority, even if the character of the man is lacking or we disagree with his decisions. Someone has to be in authority, and that person for the Church is the one in Peter's Seat. And God raises up whomever He chooses rather it is to advance the Church, challenge the Church, or purify the Church. Each Pope serves Christ's purpose over His Church. And we're promised the, "gates of Hell shall not prevail" against her.

Many disagree with the Popes. Even many Catholics! LOL I'm not big on Pope Francis. I'm far more traditional in my Catholicism. But what I've encountered among non-Catholics is... instead of submitting to the authority of the Pope/Church... many elect themselves their own Pope and make up their religion as they go and blame every volley of goosebumps on the Holy Spirit! LOL Or they advocate that each individual pastor be sole authority over their individual churches... which makes thousands of little Popes. lol For me... I'm not qualified to be my own Pope (I've played that game). I'm also not big on each pastor having final authority over their own individual churches. In my opinion... one Pope is enough! lol So, I simply embrace the Papal office as it operates under the Authority of Peter as appointed by Christ.

Here is the list of Popes going all the way back to Peter...
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: List of Popes

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes. Following the train of thought that some laws ended at the cross, the immediate question becomes Which ones?

At best I've seen vague answers such as:
The ceremonial laws ended.
The civil laws ended.
The moral laws remain.
The ten commandments and related sublaws remain.

I've also been told that if a person keeps the ten commandments exactly as written, then God will be pleased and show that person the rest of the laws. I can see several reasons why this idea doesn't work. For one thing, we ought to be able to go to websites where lots of people are keeping the ten commandments and see them talking about the rest of the laws.

We would also expect to find lists of the remaining laws all over the internet, much the way the traditional Jewish 613 laws are found on many websites.
A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)

Why don’t you share what you think which laws God’s wrote in our hearts in the New Covenant unless you don’t think what God said is true. Hebrews 8:10. This was written in the heart before Jesus came. Jeremiah 31:33 Jesus came to magnify God’s laws- so which laws do you think? Is worshipping other god’s not one God included in the heart? Or vain God’s holy name? What about murder? Is that law not written on the heart? The laws inside the ark of the covenant that is placed in the Most Holy where God dwells and revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19. Not those laws? You have been asking these questions ever since I joined CF, so please share your thoughts on the law God writes in the heart and ones He did not, scripture would be most helpful as well that perhaps discredits the scriptures that shows each and every one of the Ten Commandments has been repeated in the New Covenant, since you seem to disagree with them. Thanks and God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

I believe God is in charge of His Word and we have the 66 books that God wanted us to have, There are some myths being taught about who gave us the Bible. The Bible was written by Prophets and Disciples though the Holy Spirit. God speaks to us though His Word, the Holy scriptures.

I didn’t see your other question about the lepers, but if I have time later I will try to circle back. Take care.

I agree that God is in charge of his word. How did he preserve it? He didn't use atheists or Hindus, he worked through Christians. But not Christians operating alone, Christians in institutions and groups, such as ecumenical councils.

If that's how God preserved his word, is it possible that he used the same process to preserve its interpretation? I would say it's possible, but I'm undecided.
______________

Take all the time you want to answer the leper and offering question. It could have big implications about what ended at the cross.

 

[Leaf473]

Why don’t you share what you think which laws God’s wrote in our hearts in the New Covenant unless you don’t think what God said is true. Hebrews 8:10. This was written in the heart before Jesus came. Jeremiah 31:33 Jesus came to magnify God’s laws- so which laws do you think? Is worshipping other god’s not one God included in the heart? Or vain God’s holy name? What about murder? Is that law not written on the heart? The laws inside the ark of the covenant that is placed in the Most Holy where God dwells and revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19. Not those laws? You have been asking these questions ever since I joined CF, so please share your thoughts on the law God writes in the heart and ones He did not, scripture would be most helpful as well that perhaps discredits the scriptures that shows each and every one of the Ten Commandments has been repeated in the New Covenant, since you seem to disagree with them. Thanks and God bless.

I think the deeper meaning of all of the laws are written on our hearts. And that is the sense in which Jesus magnified all of the laws.

I don't think God writes actual letters on our hearts. But if you do, please post those letters here. If it's too much to do all at once, please post three or four of the laws that remain in addition to the ten commandments.

I don't think there are any scriptures that discredit other scriptures. But definitely, scripture can help us interpret scripture, yes.

 

[Christopher0121]

I agree that God is in charge of his word. How did he preserve it? He didn't use atheists or Hindus, he worked through Christians. But not Christians operating alone, Christians in institutions and groups, such as ecumenical councils.

If that's how God preserved his word, is it possible that he used the same process to preserve its interpretation? I would say it's possible, but I'm undecided.

Amen.

As a Catholic (I'm always intrigued I guess I could say), how so many Christians enjoy the Bible... and yet it is our Councils who eventually compiled and established the Canon as we know it in the beginning of the 5th Century. Also, most Christians use theological terms our Church Fathers and Councils established and defined in various councils throughout the Church's history.

I wasn't always a Catholic. I was a Pentecostal for over 30 years, even served in ministry. After my heart attack I felt this call to deeper spiritual reflection and a hunger for an increased and solid "practice" of my faith. I prayed and told God that I just wanted to walk in the fullness of truth... even if it seemed alien to me. The deeper I studied things the more and more I began to find myself and my studies becoming entrenched in the Roman Catholic Church. To be honest... I hated Catholicism. HATED IT. I felt it was the enemy of Christianity... although I was hard pressed to even adequately define pure Christianity. I began to realize... if Christ promised the "gates of hell would not prevail" against the Church He founded upon Peter and the Apostles... that Church would be 2,000 years old. And that means it would have interpretations, traditions, and a history I'd be totally ignorant of. It would even have an original language dating back into antiquity. So, I promised God I'd give it an honest look. And... I began to become amazed. Everything from the liturgy to various beliefs I always thought were "unbiblical" suddenly began to make sense. I also began to realize that the Bible is a product of the Church, the Church isn't a product of some man's interpretation of the Bible. The Church is supported by Scripture (which teaches us about Jesus and the early Church), Sacred Tradition (which is how the Church has developed and expressed its faith down through the ages), and the teachings of the Magisterium (the Popes, Bishops, and Priests who have preached down through the ages). These three things are like the three legs of a stool. Each contributing to the platform of a single divine deposit of truth.

I've stepped back from my Catholic studies a few times. And it feels so... uneasy. With only having the Bible to lean on it's anyone's guess on what a passage means. I can get on the internet and ask Christians what something means and get hundreds of different answers, continual debate, much condemnation is thrown around like crazy. And I realize... the Bible says nothing at all when one can make it say anything. Without the Church Fathers, without the Councils, without the Popes (even the bad Popes lol), and without Sacred Tradition the Church I realized my faith isn't grounded solidly in literal history. As a Pentecostal we always claimed our faith is represented historically in the heresies the Catholic Church "persecuted". However, the more I began to study the more I realized these heresies were NOTHING like us. And in fact, I also learned that many denominations, sects, schisms, and cults try to claim their spiritual heritage in the heresies condemned by the RCC. For example, the JWs and the Pentecostals... we each claim to have our beliefs preserved by the same heretical sects... and we have radically different theologies! LOL

Upon these realizations, that's when I had to be honest with myself. My Pentecostal church... as familiar and idealistic it was...and don't get me wrong it is a great church... it originated from a phenomena that primarily began in the early 1900's (speaking in tongues) and our "church" officially formed in 1945. Far cry from being the 2,000 year old church Jesus founded that was to prevail against the very gates of Hell throughout its existence. And only Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy can lay claim to such antiquity. However, Orthodoxy denies the authority of the Seat of Peter, and so with that it broke away causing the Great Schism.

I began to realize that essentially my Christian faith was a protest against Catholicism. No matter what non-Catholic denomination I might choose... my act was a rejection of the Catholic Church. It was me "shopping" for a church that met MY expectations. So, I buckled. I surrendered. I began attending a Catholic Church down the road from my house. I get it now. The Mary thing, the Saints, Sacred Tradition, Popes, the Rosary (which I've fallen in love with), the turbulence of over 20 centuries of history... which includes some of the greatest Saints and most evil tyrants who have ever lived. I get it now.

But that's my journey. lol

P.S.
Ever notice how the classical Protestant churches who broke away from the Catholic Church 500 years ago are steeped in so much tradition? I found myself sitting in a church not yet even 100 years old criticizing Catholics and others for "traditions of man". Think about that with me for a moment. If my Pentecostal denomination were 2,000 years old... you'd bet it would have some ANCIENT eastern and medieval traditions. lol My God, we still preach that we should have hair styles from the 1950's! LOL Any religious body who endures a couple centuries... or especially a thousand years... will have "traditions" that seem antiquated. After coming to grips with this... I've fallen in love with not only Scripture, but also Sacred Tradition. The study of icons and statues was really an eye opener when you realize how they originated and how frankly they were the "Bible"... before the Canon was established. The Councils opened my eyes to why they are a part of Sacred Tradition. Yes, Christians painted these things on catacomb walls, eventually church walls, and then finally icons, to teach the Sacred stories and teach theology. And yes, they are venerated with as much reverence offered to the Bible. Took me a while to digest that. But now I get it.

Here's one of my favorite icons. I want to share it because it means a lot to me and I often use it to help people understand what I've discovered with this ancient Christian path...

This has become one of my favorite icons of Sacred Christian Tradition. It is titled "The First Steps of Christ". This icon has spoken to me many times as I learn to walk the Catholic path. It depicts the Virgin Mother (Theotokos) teaching Jesus to walk when He is but a young child. The original icon dates to the 16th century and can be found at Limonos Monastery in Lesvos. According to Sacred Tradition this event took place outside of a cave during the time the Holy Family was hiding in Egypt. Here we see Jesus, learning to take his very first steps. Jesus is depicted as a child stumbling about as all toddlers do. No doubt falling a few times a long the way.

Ever feel like that?

Ever feel like you’re stumbling around and constantly falling down in your Christian walk?

Jesus knows what that is like. He too had to fall down, get up, fall down, get up, over and over until He gained footing and the balance to walk on His own.

We see the Theotokos, Mary the Mother of God, lovingly encouraging Him, lovingly watching for His safety, picking Him up and consoling Him if He hurt Himself. Likewise our Holy Mother (and all the Saints of Heaven) prays for us, encourages us, cheers for us, prays blessings upon us, prays for our healing, and rejoices with every successful step we take. We are surrounded by such a great and loving cloud of witnesses!

But here, the Holy Family is in hiding from forces that desire to kill the Christ Child. And so it also foreshadows the day when after Christ’s violent scourging He is forced to carry the cross down the Via Dolorosa. The great and terrible day when Mary will watch helplessly as her precious Son collapses under the weight of the cross He carries, but only on that day…there is nothing this shattered and grieving Mother will be able to do. She cannot rush to His aid as she did when He was a child. And so this icon also foreshadows Mary's broken heart and Christ’s Passion.

The divine Mysteries of this icon are many. The icon brings joy, love, and encouragement to those who have contemplated the depths of its Mysteries. There is no specific prayer before this icon. But mothers who are worried about the development of their babies or the safety of their children often pray before her. This icon is also beloved and highly respected in the Holy Land. It represents so much to so many. I cannot contemplate the Mysteries of this icon without weeping.

Think of it as a great sermon, only it is written with paint on canvas instead of ink on pages. These icons are spiritual treasures, windows into heavenly realities.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. But Holy Icons can preach ten thousand thousand words to those Christians who can see with their heart and hear with their souls. Those Christians who still keep the holy traditions of the ancient faith will understand.

God bless.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I think the deeper meaning of all of the laws are written on our hearts. And that is the sense in which Jesus magnified all of the laws.

What this involves is a development of conscience. Like developing virtue, at first it takes programed structure until it becomes habit and intuitive.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I think the deeper meaning of all of the laws are written on our hearts. And that is the sense in which Jesus magnified all of the laws.

I don't think God writes actual letters on our hearts. But if you do, please post those letters here. If it's too much to do all at once, please post three or four of the laws that remain in addition to the ten commandments.

I don't think there are any scriptures that discredit other scriptures. But definitely, scripture can help us interpret scripture, yes.

You didn’t really answer the question, but thats okay. I think scripture addresses this “deeper meaning” which I posted previously Did Christ at the Cross end all the laws?

I appreciate the response. God bless.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I would like to get this thread back on topic! What laws ended when Christ died, if any and please post scripture to support your view.

Thanks!

 

[Guojing]

I don't follow how this all fits together.

This makes it sound like all believers are in the body of Christ.

Then I hear you talking about three classes of people:

The nation of Israel, which is unbelieving Jews.

The true Israel, which is believing Jews.

The body of Christ, which is all believers, Jew or gentile. And for these people, all laws ended at the cross.

But then the true Israel is not part of the body of Christ.

Are you saying all of these things? Or just some of them? How do they fit together?

If a Jew believed in the gospel of the kingdom, during Jesus's first coming and early Acts, he would be considered as true Israel, which as you stated, refers to believing Jews.

Once the nation of Israel fell sometime in the period of Acts, any unbelieving Jews are considered uncircumcised and like any other gentile, in the eyes of God.

If these Jews still want to be saved, they have to be like us, believe in the gospel of the grace of God, which is summarized by 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. They then join the Body of Christ, like us.

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile, as you said.

But true Israel remains only of the circumcised, again, those who believed in the gospel of the kingdom, BEFORE the fall of Israel.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree that God is in charge of his word. How did he preserve it? He didn't use atheists or Hindus, he worked through Christians. But not Christians operating alone, Christians in institutions and groups, such as ecumenical councils.

If that's how God preserved his word, is it possible that he used the same process to preserve its interpretation? I would say it's possible, but I'm undecided.
______________

Take all the time you want to answer the leper and offering question. It could have big implications about what ended at the cross.

I don’t see the question regarding the lepers. Are you referring to the ten lepers? Luke 17:11-19 If so, maybe you can explain why and what you think it means and the implications you think it means that ended at the cross and then I will comment on what I think this scriptures means.

 

[Leaf473]

Amen.

As a Catholic (I'm always intrigued I guess I could say), how so many Christians enjoy the Bible... and yet it is our Councils who eventually compiled and established the Canon as we know it in the beginning of the 5th Century. Also, most Christians use theological terms our Church Fathers and Councils established and defined in various councils throughout the Church's history.

I wasn't always a Catholic. I was a Pentecostal for over 30 years, even served in ministry. After my heart attack I felt this call to deeper spiritual reflection and a hunger for an increased and solid "practice" of my faith. I prayed and told God that I just wanted to walk in the fullness of truth... even if it seemed alien to me. The deeper I studied things the more and more I began to find myself and my studies becoming entrenched in the Roman Catholic Church. To be honest... I hated Catholicism. HATED IT. I felt it was the enemy of Christianity... although I was hard pressed to even adequately define pure Christianity. I began to realize... if Christ promised the "gates of hell would not prevail" against the Church He founded upon Peter and the Apostles... that Church would be 2,000 years old. And that means it would have interpretations, traditions, and a history I'd be totally ignorant of. It would even have an original language dating back into antiquity. So, I promised God I'd give it an honest look. And... I began to become amazed. Everything from the liturgy to various beliefs I always thought were "unbiblical" suddenly began to make sense. I also began to realize that the Bible is a product of the Church, the Church isn't a product of some man's interpretation of the Bible. The Church is supported by Scripture (which teaches us about Jesus and the early Church), Sacred Tradition (which is how the Church has developed and expressed its faith down through the ages), and the teachings of the Magisterium (the Popes, Bishops, and Priests who have preached down through the ages). These three things are like the three legs of a stool. Each contributing to the platform of a single divine deposit of truth.

I've stepped back from my Catholic studies a few times. And it feels so... uneasy. With only having the Bible to lean on it's anyone's guess on what a passage means. I can get on the internet and ask Christians what something means and get hundreds of different answers, continual debate, much condemnation is thrown around like crazy. And I realize... the Bible says nothing at all when one can make it say anything. Without the Church Fathers, without the Councils, without the Popes (even the bad Popes lol), and without Sacred Tradition the Church I realized my faith isn't grounded solidly in literal history. As a Pentecostal we always claimed our faith is represented historically in the heresies the Catholic Church "persecuted". However, the more I began to study the more I realized these heresies were NOTHING like us. And in fact, I also learned that many denominations, sects, schisms, and cults try to claim their spiritual heritage in the heresies condemned by the RCC. For example, the JWs and the Pentecostals... we each claim to have our beliefs preserved by the same heretical sects... and we have radically different theologies! LOL

Upon these realizations, that's when I had to be honest with myself. My Pentecostal church... as familiar and idealistic it was...and don't get me wrong it is a great church... it originated from a phenomena that primarily began in the early 1900's (speaking in tongues) and our "church" officially formed in 1945. Far cry from being the 2,000 year old church Jesus founded that was to prevail against the very gates of Hell throughout its existence. And only Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy can lay claim to such antiquity. However, Orthodoxy denies the authority of the Seat of Peter, and so with that it broke away causing the Great Schism.

I began to realize that essentially my Christian faith was a protest against Catholicism. No matter what non-Catholic denomination I might choose... my act was a rejection of the Catholic Church. It was me "shopping" for a church that met MY expectations. So, I buckled. I surrendered. I began attending a Catholic Church down the road from my house. I get it now. The Mary thing, the Saints, Sacred Tradition, Popes, the Rosary (which I've fallen in love with), the turbulence of over 20 centuries of history... which includes some of the greatest Saints and most evil tyrants who have ever lived. I get it now.

But that's my journey. lol

P.S.
Ever notice how the classical Protestant churches who broke away from the Catholic Church 500 years ago are steeped in so much tradition? I found myself sitting in a church not yet even 100 years old criticizing Catholics and others for "traditions of man". Think about that with me for a moment. If my Pentecostal denomination were 2,000 years old... you'd bet it would have some ANCIENT eastern and medieval traditions. lol My God, we still preach that we should have hair styles from the 1950's! LOL Any religious body who endures a couple centuries... or especially a thousand years... will have "traditions" that seem antiquated. After coming to grips with this... I've fallen in love with not only Scripture, but also Sacred Tradition. The study of icons and statues was really an eye opener when you realize how they originated and how frankly they were the "Bible"... before the Canon was established. The Councils opened my eyes to why they are a part of Sacred Tradition. Yes, Christians painted these things on catacomb walls, eventually church walls, and then finally icons, to teach the Sacred stories and teach theology. And yes, they are venerated with as much reverence offered to the Bible. Took me a while to digest that. But now I get it.

Here's one of my favorite icons. I want to share it because it means a lot to me and I often use it to help people understand what I've discovered with this ancient Christian path...

This has become one of my favorite icons of Sacred Christian Tradition. It is titled "The First Steps of Christ". This icon has spoken to me many times as I learn to walk the Catholic path. It depicts the Virgin Mother (Theotokos) teaching Jesus to walk when He is but a young child. The original icon dates to the 16th century and can be found at Limonos Monastery in Lesvos. According to Sacred Tradition this event took place outside of a cave during the time the Holy Family was hiding in Egypt. Here we see Jesus, learning to take his very first steps. Jesus is depicted as a child stumbling about as all toddlers do. No doubt falling a few times a long the way.

Ever feel like that?

Ever feel like you’re stumbling around and constantly falling down in your Christian walk?

Jesus knows what that is like. He too had to fall down, get up, fall down, get up, over and over until He gained footing and the balance to walk on His own.

We see the Theotokos, Mary the Mother of God, lovingly encouraging Him, lovingly watching for His safety, picking Him up and consoling Him if He hurt Himself. Likewise our Holy Mother (and all the Saints of Heaven) prays for us, encourages us, cheers for us, prays blessings upon us, prays for our healing, and rejoices with every successful step we take. We are surrounded by such a great and loving cloud of witnesses!

But here, the Holy Family is in hiding from forces that desire to kill the Christ Child. And so it also foreshadows the day when after Christ’s violent scourging He is forced to carry the cross down the Via Dolorosa. The great and terrible day when Mary will watch helplessly as her precious Son collapses under the weight of the cross He carries, but only on that day…there is nothing this shattered and grieving Mother will be able to do. She cannot rush to His aid as she did when He was a child. And so this icon also foreshadows Mary's broken heart and Christ’s Passion.

The divine Mysteries of this icon are many. The icon brings joy, love, and encouragement to those who have contemplated the depths of its Mysteries. There is no specific prayer before this icon. But mothers who are worried about the development of their babies or the safety of their children often pray before her. This icon is also beloved and highly respected in the Holy Land. It represents so much to so many. I cannot contemplate the Mysteries of this icon without weeping.

Think of it as a great sermon, only it is written with paint on canvas instead of ink on pages. These icons are spiritual treasures, windows into heavenly realities.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words. But Holy Icons can preach ten thousand thousand words to those Christians who can see with their heart and hear with their souls. Those Christians who still keep the holy traditions of the ancient faith will understand.

God bless.

Lots of interesting ideas in your post, there!

One way to talk about those ideas in relation to the thread title is this question:
Who gets to decide whether the Bible has 66 books or 73 books?

If each person gets to decide for themselves, then it seems reasonable that each person would also get to interpret the Bible for themselves,
which laws ended at the cross.

But if a person follows the decision of a group of Christians, if that group of Christians gets to decide, then it seems reasonable that the same group of Christians would also get to interpret the Bible,
again about which laws ended at the cross.

And may the peace of the Lord be always with you!

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Lots of interesting ideas in your post, there!

One way to talk about those ideas in relation to the thread title is this question:
Who gets to decide whether the Bible has 66 books or 73 books?

If each person gets to decide for themselves, then it seems reasonable that each person would also get to interpret the Bible for themselves,
which laws ended at the cross.

But if a person follows the decision of a group of Christians, if that group of Christians gets to decide, then it seems reasonable that the same group of Christians would also get to interpret the Bible,
again about which laws ended at the cross.

And may the peace of the Lord be always with you!

Or we could follow God’s Word as the scriptures tells us, including which set of laws ended and pointed to Christ. Hebrews 10, 1 Cor 7:19, Colossians 2:14 We have free will though and can choose Option B. Follow yourself which scriptures warns us. Proverbs 3:5-6 Option C Follow the church which most have replaced God’s commandments with traditions, that Jesus warned us Matthew 15:3-9. I choose Option A. Follow God’s Word as it is a lamp to our feet. Psalms 119:105

 

[Leaf473]

What this involves is a development of conscience. Like developing virtue, at first it takes programed structure until it becomes habit and intuitive.

This came to my mind after reading your post, from Hebrews 5:
"But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil." ESV

Hebrews 5 ESV

 

[Leaf473]

You didn’t really answer the question, but thats okay. I think scripture addresses this “deeper meaning” which I posted previously Did Christ at the Cross end all the laws?

I appreciate the response. God bless.

I believe I did answer your question. This is the question that I saw:

Why don’t you share what you think which laws God’s wrote in our hearts in the New Covenant unless you don’t think what God said is true.

I did say which laws: God writes the entire law on our hearts.

But not in letters. He writes the deeper meaning or principles.

I don't think you and I really disagree about the deeper meaning or principles of the law. It's in the letters where I think we, well, see things differently.

Discussions about the theory of law keeping can easily go on indefinitely. It's when the actual practices are talked about that things usually resolve pretty quick.

That's why I'm asking you to post some of the scriptures where the remaining laws are found.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I don’t see the question regarding the lepers. Are you referring to the ten lepers? Luke 17:11-19 If so, maybe you can explain why and what you think it means and the implications you think it means that ended at the cross and then I will comment on what I think this scriptures means.

Matthew 8:4 has the parallel with the addition of
"and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to the people."

After healing one should show themselves to a priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I believe I did answer your question. This is the question that I saw:

I did say which laws: God writes the entire law on our hearts.

But not in letters. He writes the deeper meaning or principles.

I don't think you and I really disagree about the deeper meaning or principles of the law. It's in the letters where I think we, well, see things differently.

Discussions about the theory of law keeping can easily go on indefinitely. It's when the actual practices are talked about that things usually resolve pretty quick.

That's why I'm asking you to post some of the scriptures where the remaining laws are found.

Letters from which laws? Are you referring from the Ten? If so, does that mean we can worship other gods, bow to idols, murder, steal, lie etc. Are you referring to these letters that we don’t have to keep from the Ten or others. Maybe you can clarify.

Thanks

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Matthew 8:4 has the parallel with the addition of
"and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a proof to the people."

After healing one should show themselves to a priest and offer the gift that Moses commanded

Is the power in the priest or is the power in the lepers obeying what Jesus told them to do?

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Is the power in the priest or is the power in the lepers obeying what Jesus told them to do?

Don't know about the power, only the command.

 

[Leaf473]

I would like to get this thread back on topic! What laws ended when Christ died, if any and please post scripture to support your view.

Thanks!

If a Jew believed in the gospel of the kingdom, during Jesus's first coming and early Acts, he would be considered as true Israel, which as you stated, refers to believing Jews.

Once the nation of Israel fell sometime in the period of Acts, any unbelieving Jews are considered uncircumcised and like any other gentile, in the eyes of God.

If these Jews still want to be saved, they have to be like us, believe in the gospel of the grace of God, which is summarized by 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. They then join the Body of Christ, like us.

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile, as you said.

But true Israel remains only of the circumcised, again, those who believed in the gospel of the kingdom, BEFORE the fall of Israel.

So, relating this subject to the thread topic, I believe you (Guojing) and I already agreed that the body of Christ is free from the law. That is, all laws ended at the cross for the body of Christ.

I think we probably also agree that for the nation of Israel, all the laws continue.

That leaves the true Israel, which I think relates to how we interpret the scriptures as to what laws ended at the cross for whom.

The true Israel, if I understand what you're saying, is those Jews who believed in Jesus between the resurrection and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. And are you also saying that for the true Israel, no laws ended at the cross?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So, relating this subject to the thread topic, I believe you (Guojing) and I already agreed that the body of Christ is free from the law. That is, all laws ended at the cross for the body of Christ.

I think we probably also agree that for the nation of Israel, all the laws continue.

That leaves the true Israel, which I think relates to how we interpret the scriptures as to what laws ended at the cross for whom.

The true Israel, if I understand what you're saying, is those Jews who believed in Jesus between the resurrection and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. And are you also saying that for the true Israel, no laws ended at the cross?

So in your view who is Jeremiah 31:33 Hebrews 8:10 written to? Doesn’t sound like these scriptures fit in either category that you have created. Are you saying there is a third category?