Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[SabbathBlessings]

Hi Aquila,

Nice to meet you and thanks for your thoughts.

I was taught this...
The Law of God (Ten Commandments) is eternal and expresses God's holiness. Christians do well to keep these laws.

I agree and think the Ten Commandments are the standard for everyday Christian living. That said, if I am not mistaken and you can correct me, the Catholic church has their own version of God's Ten Commandments, that is different than the Biblical version. My belief is that we should not change/add to scripture. Proverbs 30:5-6.

I was taught this...
The Law of Moses (containing the Ordinances given to Israel on top of the Ten Commandments) ended at the Cross.

Agreed

The Law of Christ (two commandments to love God and neighbor) is a supreme spiritual law which when truly lived out fulfills the Law of God through a spirit of loving devotion towards God and man.

Jesus was quoting from the law of Moses the two greatest commandments Deuteronomy 6:5 Leviticus 19:18 which can be summarized when we keep the Ten Commandments. The first 4 commandments how we love God and the last 6 how we love our neighbor.

God bless!

 

[Leaf473]

I think a person can keep the ten commandments and not love their neighbor.

I think that's the thrust of the parable of the Good Samaritan.

The priest and the levite could easily be keeping the ten commandments, they probably were. They were also very aware of possible defilement if the man dies.

The Samaritan goes beyond the ten and keeps the commandment to love his neighbor.

 

[Leaf473]

An observation about Jesus and the greatest commandment:

The Hebrew has heart, soul, and strength.

Matthew has heart, soul, and mind.

Mark and Luke both have heart, soul, mind, and strength, though in different order.

I agree that Jesus isn't changing the meaning. But he is making changes to the letters... or the gospel writers did.

 

[Christopher0121]

Hi Aquila,

Nice to meet you and thanks for your thoughts.

I agree and think the Ten Commandments are the standard for everyday Christian living. That said, if I am not mistaken and you can correct me, the Catholic church has their own version of God's Ten Commandments, that is different than the Biblical version. My belief is that we should not change/add to scripture. Proverbs 30:5-6.


Agreed


Jesus was quoting from the law of Moses the two greatest commandments Deuteronomy 6:5 Leviticus 19:18 which can be summarized when we keep the Ten Commandments. The first 4 commandments how we love God and the last 6 how we love our neighbor.

God bless!

God bless! Nice meeting you also! lol

We have very similar perspectives.

When it comes to the Ten Commandments, the Catholic Church didn't depart from the "biblical version". I know that's commonly said, but its all just fake news from the Protestant Reformation. Here's a link with a sound Catholic answer to the question. It's not as crazy as most Protestants might think. lol

Did the Catholic Church Change the Ten Commandments?

I was Protestant for over 30 years before becoming Catholic. And I always thought I understood Catholicism. But after engaging in some rather rigorous study of the historical Christian faith I realized that I really knew nothing about Catholicism, what Catholics really believe, or why. I was shocked. Here's an actual Christian Church that is 20 centuries old, was the Church of the Church Councils, was the Church of the Church Fathers, and is traceable back to Peter and Christ Himself... and the average Protestant knows nothing about them and what they really believe. It's almost like a deliberate blackout of information. All I knew were the straw man depictions of Catholicism. I really didn't know Catholicism in reality. Yep, I was clueless about what the oldest and largest Church on earth believes. As I began to study the historic Christian faith and began to realize what Catholics believe and why... something began to resonate within me regarding this ancient Christian tradition and so today I've become Catholic.

 

[Guojing]

Right, the true Israel and the body of Christ are not equivalent. At the same time, the true Israel is part of the body of Christ, yes?

They are separate groups so no.

 

[Christopher0121]

They are separate groups so no.

Dispensationalism views Israel and the Church as two distinct bodies.

Covenant Theology views Israel and the Church as both the covenant people of God, Israel was simply the Church in the wilderness prior to the Cross.

Acts 7:38
New Catholic Bible
38 It was he who was in the assembly (church) in the desert with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our ancestors, and who received words of life to hand on to us.​

 

[SabbathBlessings]

God bless! Nice meeting you also! lol

We have very similar perspectives.

When it comes to the Ten Commandments, the Catholic Church didn't depart from the "biblical version". I know that's commonly said, but its all just fake news from the Protestant Reformation. Here's a link with a sound Catholic answer to the question. It's not as crazy as most Protestants might think. lol

Did the Catholic Church Change the Ten Commandments?

I was Protestant for over 30 years before becoming Catholic. And I always thought I understood Catholicism. But after engaging in some rather rigorous study of the historical Christian faith I realized that I really knew nothing about Catholicism, what Catholics really believe, or why. I was shocked. Here's an actual Christian Church that is 20 centuries old, was the Church of the Church Councils, was the Church of the Church Fathers, and is traceable back to Peter and Christ Himself... and the average Protestant knows nothing about them and what they really believe. It's almost like a deliberate blackout of information. All I knew were the straw man depictions of Catholicism. I really didn't know Catholicism in reality. Yep, I was clueless about what the oldest and largest Church on earth believes. As I began to study the historic Christian faith and began to realize what Catholics believe and why... something began to resonate within me regarding this ancient Christian tradition and so today I've become Catholic.

Thanks for the information and the response back!

I did have to stop at this sentence:

4. We believe the Catholic Church alone has the authority to give to God’s people an authoritative list of the Ten Commandments.

Which I have a hard time with because scripture tells Jesus is our Mediator in the New Covenant Hebrews 9:15, 1 Timothy 2:5 and the Holy Spirit will teach us (individuals) all things John 14:26 and will remind us what He (God) says through scripture and the Spirit is given to those who obey these commandments John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, not what the Catholic Church tells us. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree there.

Also, it seems to me from the link the CC is trying to explain why some changes were made. In my view, the commandments God wrote with His own finger, placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where Jesus dwells and is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 should not be tinkered with at all. Proverbs 30:5-6 The commandments God wrote are perfect Psalms 19:7 and His law is His Authority alone. There were some people in the OT who were killed for touching the ark of the Covenant (when they weren’t supposed to) I just don’t see how in any form man can change one dot to His law. Luke 16:17

This is the biblical Ten Commandments- spoken and written by God alone. Is this the same version the Catholic Church teaches? I saw something different online, but I am not Catholic and don’t want to assume what is shown online is correct. I can show you what I’m talking about if your want. . .

The Ten Commandments

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that isin the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In ityou shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who iswithin your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lordblessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


For me, I try to search for biblical Truth, God’s Truth where ever that leads. . because we are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24

God bless!

 

[Guojing]

Dispensationalism views Israel and the Church as two distinct bodies.

Covenant Theology views Israel and the Church as both the covenant people of God, Israel was simply the Church in the wilderness prior to the Cross.

Acts 7:38
New Catholic Bible
38 It was he who was in the assembly (church) in the desert with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai and with our ancestors, and who received words of life to hand on to us.​

Yes, that is true. But to be clear, we use the term Body of Christ instead of the church, as you can see, called out assemblies existed even during Moses time, but they are not the Body of Christ.

Interestingly, do you think Catholic churches, most of them interpret scripture using the Covenant Theology lens too?

 

[Christopher0121]

Yes, that is true. But to be clear, we use the term Body of Christ instead of the church, as you can see, called out assemblies existed even during Moses time, but they are not the Body of Christ.

I believe that is an opinion trapped in time. Remember, Christ is the transcendent God, God from God, true light from true light, from all eternity.

I Corinthians 10:1-4​

New Catholic Bible
1 Brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, 2 and they were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 All ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink—for they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them, and that rock was Christ.

Here Paul himself explains that ancient Israel were all technically baptized, just as we are. However, their baptism was under the cloud and as they passed through the sea. We are reminded that they all ate the same spiritual food, and drank the same spiritual drink (a eucharistic reference), for they drank from the rock that followed them, and that rock was... Christ. Just as we Christians within the Christian Church look back to the work of Christ's cross for our salvation... Israel looked forward to the same fulfillment for their salvation. And being the "church in the wilderness" they were baptized and even partook in the same spiritual food and drink (eucharist) we partake in.

There is only one people of God... and ALL are in Christ Jesus.

Interestingly, do you think Catholic churches, most of them interpret scripture using the Covenant Theology lens too?

I cannot speak for all Catholic Churches. However, I do believe most would lean more covenantal in their theology than dispensational. Even the Catholic liturgy traces back through the Divine Liturgy to the Jewish liturgy reflected in synagogues (and even in the book of Revelation). The Catholic Church's ecclesiastical structure from the Holy Father down to Cardinals, Bishops, and the Deacons of the Church is modeled after the Priesthood of ancient Israel, including various vestments. It would make sense if most were more covenantal in theology.

 

[Christopher0121]

Thanks for the information and the response back!

I did have to stop at this sentence:

4. We believe the Catholic Church alone has the authority to give to God’s people an authoritative list of the Ten Commandments.

Which I have a hard time with because scripture tells Jesus is our Mediator in the New Covenant Hebrews 9:15, 1 Timothy 2:5 and the Holy Spirit will teach us (individuals) all things John 14:26 and will remind us what He (God) says through scripture and the Spirit is given to those who obey these commandments John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, not what the Catholic Church tells us. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree there.

Also, it seems to me from the link the CC is trying to explain why some changes were made. In my view, the commandments God wrote with His own finger, placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where Jesus dwells and is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 should not be tinkered with at all. Proverbs 30:5-6 The commandments God wrote are perfect Psalms 19:7 and His law is His Authority alone. There were some people in the OT who were killed for touching the ark of the Covenant (when they weren’t supposed to) I just don’t see how in any form man can change one dot to His law. Luke 16:17

This is the biblical Ten Commandments- spoken and written by God alone. Is this the same version the Catholic Church teaches? I saw something different online, but I am not Catholic and don’t want to assume what is shown online is correct. I can show you what I’m talking about if your want. . .

The Ten Commandments

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that isin the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In ityou shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who iswithin your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lordblessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


For me, I try to search for biblical Truth, God’s Truth where ever that leads. . because we are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24

God bless!

Eh, the Jews have a version of the 10 Commandments that differs from both of us Catholics and Protestants! LOL

Remember, originally there were no verse numbers or chapters in the text. In fact, there were no spaces and little grammatical annotations in the oldest texts. I'm really not a fundamentalist on how one breaks down the commandments... as long as they honor them biblically.

P.S.
Never sell yourself short when reading something over a single line you disagree with. Christ did die to found a CHURCH. Not a book. Not a book club. In fact, the canon wasn't even fully compiled and canonized as a whole until the late 4th, early 5th century... by our Catholic Councils. Many act like the Bible fell out of the sky and we should be trying to build a Church based on what we read in it. lol But the truth is... the Church existed before the NT was even penned. In fact, the NT letters were written for the Church's benefit. The Church was in full swing and advancing as the NT was being written, after it was written and the letters were simply in circulation, and up until we compiled the texts for canonization. It's THAT Church most know nothing about. As a Catholic I believe in three levels of authority. First, there is Scripture. It primarily teaches us about Jesus and the early Church. Then there is the office of Peter, to whom Jesus gave the keys to Heaven. This is the Magisterium. Jesus also promised the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against His Church. So, the Councils of said Church establish Holy Tradition. So, we have Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, and Holy Office of the Magisterium. Wanna learn about Jesus and the early days of the Church? Read Sacred Scripture. Wanna know how the Church has managed tradition and heresies? Study Sacred Tradition. Wanna know what the standard teaching of the Bishops of the Church has been over 20 centuries on various topics? Study the Magisterium.

Many say the Bible alone is all one needs. Well... there are 40,000 different denominations believing different interpretations without any arbitrator. All they can do is divide to form a different church startup. lol Catholicism is grounded in over 20 centuries of continuity from that very moment that Jesus renamed Simon, Peter, and gave him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Eh, the Jews have a version of the 10 Commandments that differs from both of us Catholics and Protestants! LOL

Remember, originally there were no verse numbers or chapters in the text. In fact, there were no spaces and little grammatical annotations in the oldest texts. I'm really not a fundamentalist on how one breaks down the commandments... as long as they honor them biblically.

P.S.
Never sell yourself short when reading something over a single line you disagree with. Christ did die to found a CHURCH. Not a book. Not a book club. In fact, the canon wasn't even fully compiled and canonized as a whole until the late 4th, early 5th century... by our Catholic Councils. Many act like the Bible fell out of the sky and we should be trying to build a Church based on what we read in it. lol But the truth is... the Church existed before the NT was even penned. In fact, the NT letters were written for the Church's benefit. The Church was in full swing and advancing as the NT was being written, after it was written and the letters were simply in circulation, and up until we compiled the texts for canonization. It's THAT Church most know nothing about. As a Catholic I believe in three levels of authority. First, there is Scripture. It primarily teaches us about Jesus and the early Church. Then there is the office of Peter, to whom Jesus gave the keys to Heaven. This is the Magisterium. Jesus also promised the gates of hell wouldn't prevail against His Church. So, the Councils of said Church establish Holy Tradition. So, we have Holy Scripture, Holy Tradition, and Holy Office of the Magisterium. Wanna learn about Jesus and the early days of the Church? Read Sacred Scripture. Wanna know how the Church has managed tradition and heresies? Study Sacred Tradition. Wanna know what the standard teaching of the Bishops of the Church has been over 20 centuries on various topics? Study the Magisterium.

Many say the Bible alone is all one needs. Well... there are 40,000 different denominations believing different interpretations without any arbitrator. All they can do is divide to form a different church startup. lol Catholicism is grounded in over 20 centuries of continuity from that very moment that Jesus renamed Simon, Peter, and gave him the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes, there are a lot of denominations and that's just the devil trying to confuse the masses, which is why we should only follow scripture. The church that is being referenced to in scripture is not the Catholic church, Christ's church are made up of those who follow His Word and His teachings, not mans. He is the Rock the church was built on, not man. Jesus is the key to the kingdom and commissioned the apostles to teach the world His teachings. The power is in Christ and Christ alone. He is the way John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. Jesus is our Mediator, not a church.

I think the CC has rewritten a lot of history, but that's probably for a whole other thread.

Anyway, I truly appreciate your thoughts and we sort of sidetracked, and we will probably have to agree to disagree on this topic. Perhaps we can discuss further in another thread if you're up to it. I think we should all search for Truth in the scriptures, doing God's will, wherever that leads.

God bless!

 

[Leaf473]

They are separate groups so no.

I don't follow how this all fits together.

So if you are one of those Jews from Israel, and you want to be saved, you will need to be like us gentiles and believe in the gospel that Paul preached, which is the gospel of the uncircumcision, summarized in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

If you do that, you become part of the Body of Christ, where yes, there is neither Jew nor gentile.

This makes it sound like all believers are in the body of Christ.

Then I hear you talking about three classes of people:

The nation of Israel, which is unbelieving Jews.

The true Israel, which is believing Jews.

The body of Christ, which is all believers, Jew or gentile. And for these people, all laws ended at the cross.

But then the true Israel is not part of the body of Christ.

Are you saying all of these things? Or just some of them? How do they fit together?

 

[Leaf473]

Thanks for the information and the response back!

I did have to stop at this sentence:

4. We believe the Catholic Church alone has the authority to give to God’s people an authoritative list of the Ten Commandments.

Which I have a hard time with because scripture tells Jesus is our Mediator in the New Covenant Hebrews 9:15, 1 Timothy 2:5 and the Holy Spirit will teach us (individuals) all things John 14:26 and will remind us what He (God) says through scripture and the Spirit is given to those who obey these commandments John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, not what the Catholic Church tells us. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree there.

Also, it seems to me from the link the CC is trying to explain why some changes were made. In my view, the commandments God wrote with His own finger, placed in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of God’s Temple where Jesus dwells and is revealed in heaven Revelation 11:19 should not be tinkered with at all. Proverbs 30:5-6 The commandments God wrote are perfect Psalms 19:7 and His law is His Authority alone. There were some people in the OT who were killed for touching the ark of the Covenant (when they weren’t supposed to) I just don’t see how in any form man can change one dot to His law. Luke 16:17

This is the biblical Ten Commandments- spoken and written by God alone. Is this the same version the Catholic Church teaches? I saw something different online, but I am not Catholic and don’t want to assume what is shown online is correct. I can show you what I’m talking about if your want. . .

The Ten Commandments

20 And God spoke all these words, saying:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that isin the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In ityou shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who iswithin your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lordblessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”


For me, I try to search for biblical Truth, God’s Truth where ever that leads. . because we are called to worship Him in Truth and Spirit. John 4:23-24

God bless!

Talking about individuals here,

...and the Holy Spirit will teach us (individuals) all things John 14:26...

Are you sure that's talking about individuals? He's speaking to his apostles as a group, is it possible he means the spirit will guide them as a group?

I myself am undecided on this. It can be seen as the major difference between the Catholic/Orthodox approach and the Protestant approach.

It relates to the thread topic in this way: who has the authority to say what laws ended at the cross, the church or the individual?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Talking about individuals here,

Are you sure that's talking about individuals? He's speaking to his apostles as a group, is it possible he means the spirit will guide them as a group?

We are all judged individually, not as a group or on a sliding scale. 2 Corinthians 5:10. So its up to us to search the scriptures to ensure it is so (from God) Acts 17:11. If your church or institution is teaching you something that is not biblical, its up to us to seek the Truth. We are called to worship in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24. The devil deceives the whole world, that means the majority, only God's Word we can trust and is a shield to those who put their trust in Him (not the church). God's asks us to seek Him with our whole heart and doing so when we obey, we are given the Spirit of Truth who will teach us all things. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, John 14:26. I am not saying to never trust your church, but I would not put a church above God's Word. We are warned there will be many false prophets. Matthew 24:11 If ones church is not teaching from scripture, I would be very careful. Isaiah 8:20, Proverbs 30:6

It relates to the thread topic in this way: who has the authority to say what laws ended at the cross, the church or the individual?

Only Christ has authority to end His laws and the only laws that ended are the ones pointing to Jesus when He became our Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Which I already went into details with scriptures here. . .Did Christ at the Cross end all the laws?

 

[Leaf473]

We are all judged individually, not as a group or on a sliding scale. 2 Corinthians 5:10. So its up to us to search the scriptures to ensure it is so (from God) Acts 17:11. If your church or institution is teaching you something that is not biblical, its up to us to seek the Truth. We are called to worship in Truth and Spirit John 4:23-24. The devil deceives the whole world, that means the majority, only God's Word we can trust and is a shield to those who put their trust in Him (not the church). God's asks us to seek Him with our whole heart and doing so when we obey, we are given the Spirit of Truth who will teach us all things. John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32, John 14:26. I am not saying to never trust your church, but I would not put a church above God's Word. We are warned there will be many false prophets. Matthew 24:11 If ones church is not teaching from scripture, I would be very careful. Isaiah 8:20, Proverbs 30:6

Only Christ has authority to end His laws and the only laws that ended are the ones pointing to Jesus when He became our Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Which I already went into details with scriptures here. . .Did Christ at the Cross end all the laws?

_______________________

We are all judged individually, not as a group or on a sliding scale. 2 Corinthians 5:10.

I agree that we are all judged individually. Are you sure that this means that God does not lead the church as a group?

To me, the passages that talk about the spirit guiding us into truth could be taken either way.

I agree that the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if these things were so. At the same time, when there was a question about what laws the gentiles were to keep after the cross, they don't say, Everyone get your scrolls and decide for yourself. The leaders of the church gathered and decided for everyone.

We know that Jesus told his apostles that whatever they bound on Earth would be bound in heaven, and the same for loosing.

It seems possible to me that this gave the apostles the authority to bind and loose laws as well.

Only Christ has authority to end His laws and the only laws that ended are the ones pointing to Jesus when He became our Sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Which I already went into details with scriptures here. . .Did Christ at the Cross end all the laws?

It looks to me that getting into the specifics of which laws ended is where the difficulty with the teaching that you present is most easily seen.

As we talked about above, Jesus told a leper to go to the priest and present an offering. Does the offering for a cleansed leper also point to Jesus' sacrifice for sin?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

_______________________


I agree that we are all judged individually. Are you sure that this means that God does not lead the church as a group?

To me, the passages that talk about the spirit guiding us into truth could be taken either way.

I agree that the Bereans searched the scriptures to see if these things were so. At the same time, when there was a question about what laws the gentiles were to keep after the cross, they don't say, Everyone get your scrolls and decide for yourself. The leaders of the church gathered and decided for everyone.

We know that Jesus told his apostles that whatever they bound on Earth would be bound in heaven, and the same for loosing.

It seems possible to me that this gave the apostles the authority to bind and loose laws as well.

It looks to me that getting into the specifics of which laws ended is where the difficulty with the teaching that you present is most easily seen.

As we talked about above, Jesus told a leper to go to the priest and present an offering. Does the offering for a cleansed leper also point to Jesus' sacrifice for sin?

This is where we usually end up-agree to disagree. The head of the Church is Christ. Christ commissioned to teach the apostles His teaching, not whatever the apostles wanted to teach not a new or different gospel. Jesus is the way, the ONLY way. The church is built on Christ, not on man.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

 

[expos4ever]

It looks to me that getting into the specifics of which laws ended is where the difficulty with the teaching that you present is most easily seen.

Agree - I think the arguments presented in favour of keeping some and not others are very weak indeed. The 10 were written on stone? That is the reason why they persist past the cross?

I do not find this, or related, arguments convincing at all. Again, Paul never, I believe, talks about components of the law - he always simply writes about "the law".

And I will not tire in reminding readers that in Romans 7 Pauls says we no longer serve according to letter of the law. To rescue their position, those who insist the 10 commandments live on effectively argue that he really meant to write something else - that we are no longer judged by the law.

How does the concept of "serve according to" become so plastic that it can be morphed into the concept of "be judged by"?

Not to mention the argument that the otherwise powerful metaphor of laws being written on our hearts is gutted of all its impact when it is seen as simply "memorizing" or regurgitating the same old code. No - to be written on the heart carries implications of instinctive awareness, without need for the written code.

Am I pushing this line too far? Certainly not according to Paul:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

 

[Leaf473]

This is where we usually end up-agree to disagree. The head of the Church is Christ. Christ commissioned to teach the apostles His teaching, not whatever the apostles wanted to teach not a new or different gospel. Jesus is the way, the ONLY way. The church is built on Christ, not on man.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

I agree with everything you say there!

Now... Did God tell you directly, personally, which books should be in the Bible? Or were you told my other Christians?

If most Christians are deceived and on the path to destruction, why would we believe that the Bible that most Christians use is the right one?
_____________

Did you want to answer the question about the leper and the offering? It's something Jesus told someone to do. Should we do it, too?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I agree with everything you say there!

Now... Did God tell you directly, personally, which books should be in the Bible? Or were you told my other Christians?

If most Christians are deceived and on the path to destruction, why would we believe that the Bible that most Christians use is the right one?
_____________

Did you want to answer the question about the leper and the offering? It's something Jesus told someone to do. Should we do it, too?

I believe God is in charge of His Word and we have the 66 books that God wanted us to have, There are some myths being taught about who gave us the Bible. The Bible was written by Prophets and Disciples though the Holy Spirit. God speaks to us though His Word, the Holy scriptures.

I didn’t see your other question about the lepers, but if I have time later I will try to circle back. Take care.

 

[Leaf473]

Agree - I think the arguments presented in favour of keeping some and not others are very weak indeed. The 10 were written on stone? That is the reason why they persist past the cross?

I do not find this, or related, arguments convincing at all. Again, Paul never, I believe, talks about components of the law - he always simply writes about "the law".

And I will not tire in reminding readers that in Romans 7 Pauls says we no longer serve according to letter of the law. To rescue their position, those who insist the 10 commandments live on effectively argue that he really meant to write something else - that we are no longer judged by the law.

How does the concept of "serve according to" become so plastic that it can be morphed into the concept of "be judged by"?

Not to mention the argument that the otherwise powerful metaphor of laws being written on our hearts is gutted of all its impact when it is seen as simply "memorizing" or regurgitating the same old code. No - to be written on the heart carries implications of instinctive awareness, without need for the written code.

Am I pushing this line too far? Certainly not according to Paul:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

Yes. Following the train of thought that some laws ended at the cross, the immediate question becomes Which ones?

At best I've seen vague answers such as:
The ceremonial laws ended.
The civil laws ended.
The moral laws remain.
The ten commandments and related sublaws remain.

I've also been told that if a person keeps the ten commandments exactly as written, then God will be pleased and show that person the rest of the laws. I can see several reasons why this idea doesn't work. For one thing, we ought to be able to go to websites where lots of people are keeping the ten commandments and see them talking about the rest of the laws.

We would also expect to find lists of the remaining laws all over the internet, much the way the traditional Jewish 613 laws are found on many websites.
A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) - Judaism 101 (JewFAQ)