Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[expos4ever]

The Law of God is universal not Candian and sin is defined as breaking God's law, not what man chooses to keep or not keep, it's not multiple choice.

My point should have been clear - the fact that someone is not subject to the Law of Moses obviously does not mean they are necessarily "lawless". And please - no one is suggesting we can do whatever we want.

You keep saying "not by a written code" you mean God's written commandments that He wrote with His own finger? You will have to sort this out with God, but when God ask us to do something, I don't think that means we can disregard.

Why does having written the law with His finger mean the law cannot be set aside later?

James says you break one you break them all quoting directly from God's written law James 2:10-12

I have conceded that, yes, James appears to advocate keeping the Law. But Paul does not. And neither does Jesus, I suggest. I agree that we are in a pickle with such seeming contradictions. I am inclined to go with Jesus and Paul over James.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

My point should have been clear - the fact that someone is not subject to the Law of Moses obviously does not mean they are necessarily "lawless". And please - no one is suggesting we can do whatever we want.


Why does having written the law with His finger mean the law cannot be set aside later?


I have conceded that, yes, James appears to advocate keeping the Law. But Paul does not. And neither does Jesus, I suggest. I agree that we are in a pickle with such seeming contradictions. I am inclined to go with Jesus and Paul over James.

God writes His laws in our hearts and minds Hebrews 8:10, which reconciles with James, Jesus , Paul and all of the disciples.

Paul does not contradict himself when he says what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19 which is what God says Exodus 20:6, Jesus John 14:15 John 1 John 5:3.

You keep ignoring a simple fact that breaking the law is what sin is- 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7 so to say we are not subject to the law, means one is lawless. God defined His laws and therefore defined sin when one breaks these laws. You seem to have fallen in the trap that many have that Paul is contradicting Jesus, himself and the other disciples, he isn't There is more than one set of law in scripture and understanding these differences are crucial to doing the will of God.

When we follow the Spirit, we are obeying the commandments, not disobeying. Jesus gives us the Spirit so we can keep the commandments John 14:15-18 and the Spirit is given to those who obey. Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32. This is what Paul is promoting, not lawlessness.

 

[expos4ever]

God writes His laws in our hearts and minds Hebrews 8:10, which reconciles with James, Jesus , Paul and all of the disciples.

Again, I have argued in some detail in multiple posts that your take on what it means to have the law written on our hearts (a) really does not honour the metaphor; and (b) does not align with what Paul writes in Romans 2 where he clearly equates having the law written on the heart with an instinctual / conscience-driven response on our part.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Again, I have argued in some detail in multiple posts that your take on what it means to have the law written on our hearts (a) really does not honour the metaphor; and (b) does not align with what Paul writes in Romans 2 where he clearly equates having the law written on the heart with an instinctual / conscience-driven response on our part.

Weird you would think the law God wrote in our hearts and minds, it not the law God personally wrote with His own finger, the only law God kept in the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of His Temple, which is also revealed in heaven. Revelation 11:19 The one Jesus repeated on multiple occasions verbatim. Matthew 19:17-19, Matthew 5:17-30, John 14:15 The law God said out of His own mouth that He shows mercy to thousands who love Him and keep His commandments, which Jesus repeated as well as John. John 14:15, 1 John 5:3

We will have to agree to disagree, and I guess we will find out soon enough. God bless

 

[expos4ever]

God writes His laws in our hearts and minds Hebrews 8:10, which reconciles with James, Jesus , Paul and all of the disciples.

If Jesus is all for obeying the Law of Moses why:

1. Does he violate it when he sets the woman caught in adultery free (clear violation of the law).
2. declare all foods clean - clear violation of kosher food laws (part of the Law)
3. Declare that He was the place to get forgiveness - clear bypassing of the Temple system (part of the Law).

 

[expos4ever]

You keep ignoring a simple fact that breaking the law is what sin is- 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7

I suggest that it is you who is:

(a) ignoring context in the case of Romans 7:7 - Paul says "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law". Past tense. And earlier in Romans 7 (just a couple of verse back), Paul declares we have been released from the Law and no longer serve it. You are silent on this - do you not agree that looks suspect?

(b) ignoring the actual text in the case of 1 John 3:4 - there is no mention of the Law of Moses there.

 

[pasifika]

My point should have been clear - the fact that someone is not subject to the Law of Moses obviously does not mean they are necessarily "lawless". And please - no one is suggesting we can do whatever we want.


Why does having written the law with His finger mean the law cannot be set aside later?


I have conceded that, yes, James appears to advocate keeping the Law. But Paul does not. And neither does Jesus, I suggest. I agree that we are in a pickle with such seeming contradictions. I am inclined to go with Jesus and Paul over James.

Hello, I think James does not advocating of keeping the Law (OC) but he is demonstrated the impossibility of following the law (old covenant) to be just or righteous, as in James 2,.. If you break one you break all commandments and deemed a law breaker

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I suggest that it is you who is:

(a) ignoring context in the case of Romans 7:7 - Paul says "I would not have come to know sin except through the Law". Past tense. And earlier in Romans 7 (just a couple of verse back), Paul declares we have been released from the Law and no longer serve it. You are silent on this - do you not agree that looks suspect?

(b) ignoring the actual text in the case of 1 John 3:4 - there is no mention of the Law of Moses there.

a. Its a statement of fact. It's past tense in the fact the law was given a long time ago, but not past tense that it isn't a sin to break this law as Paul clearly points out. You are only released from the law if you're obeying it completely through the Spirit, which is given only when we obey the law. Acts 5:32, John 14:15-18

b. Romans 7:7 helps define 1 John 3:4 as it quotes verbatim that is sin breaking the law of God and quoted one of the commandments. James confirms this in James 2:10-12 and Jesus Matthew 19:17, Matthew 5:17-30

So if you think the law of God is "deleted" does this mean you think you are free to worship other gods, vain God's holy name, commit adultery, or covet?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Hello, I think James does not advocating of keeping the Law (OC) but he is demonstrated the impossibility of following the law (old covenant) to be just or righteous, as in James 2,.. If you break one you break all commandments and deemed a law breaker

No one keeps the law to be just or righteous, the law is kept because of a changed heart and for the love of God, which is obedience to Him. John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6

Maybe you believe we have a God that asks us to do things that it is impossible or that our sin is greater than our God, but it's not what I believe. We can gain victory over sin because Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to help us obey the commandments John 14:15-18 and the Spirit is given when we obey. Acts 5:32. All things, is possible through Christ. Philippians 4:13

Which is why the saints keep both the faith in Jesus and the commandments of God. Revelation 14:12

 

[pasifika]

No one keeps the law to be just or righteous, the law is kept because of a changed heart and for the love of God, which is obedience to Him. John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, Exodus 20:6

Maybe you believe we have a God that asks us to do things that it is impossible or that our sin is greater than our God, but it's not what I believe. We can gain victory over sin because Jesus gives us the Holy Spirit to help us obey the commandments John 14:15-18 and the Spirit is given when we obey. Acts 5:32. All things, is possible through Christ. Philippians 4:13

Which is why the saints keep both the faith in Jesus and the commandments of God. Revelation 14:12

If you can keep the Law then you'll declared righteous before God.."a Righteousness that comes from the Law"..Philippians 3:9

Or,
you can believe in Jesus Christ, then you'll have a "Righteousness, that comes from God on the basis of your Faith".. Philippians 3

Also, God knew we cannot do anything that is pleasing to Him or follow His commandments, Romans 3...we are sinners by nature and it goes against God..."we are God's enemies by nature"..Romans 5:10

But, we reconciled to Him because of His Mercy towards Us through His Son..

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If you can keep the Law then you'll declared righteous before God.."a Righteousness that comes from the Law"..Philippians 3:9

Or,
you can believe in Jesus Christ, then you'll have a "Righteousness, that comes from God on the basis of your Faith".. Philippians 3

Also, God knew we cannot do anything that is pleasing to Him or follow His commandments, Romans 3...we are sinners by nature and it goes against God..."we are God's enemies by nature"..Romans 5:10

But, we reconciled to Him because of His Mercy towards Us through His Son..

Obedience is righteous by faith, not disobedience. Faith is not separated from obedience. Revelation 14:12, Romans 3:31. How can you have faith, but not enough faith to do what our Savior asks?

Many people get hung up on Paul writings and have a hard time understanding him, even in Paul's day. Paul does not teach lawlessness.

 

[pasifika]

Obedience is righteous by faith, not disobedience. Faith is not separated from obedience. Revelation 14:12, Romans 3:31. How can you have faith, but not enough faith to do what our Savior asks?

Many people get hung up on Paul writings and have a hard time understanding him, even in Paul's day. Paul does not teach lawlessness.

The law is Not based on Faith but works Galatians 3...

Where does your Faith comes from? How can you have enough Faith to do what God asked you to do?

You do lawlessness because you follow a law which separate you from Christ..

Galatians 5:4.." You" who are trying to be justified by the Law, have been "alienated from Christ, "YOU" have "fallen away" from Grace...

Hope you seek more of Christ..I am also keep seeking more of Him..

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The law is Not based on Faith but works Galatians 3...

Where does your Faith comes from? How can you have enough Faith to do what God asked you to do?

You do lawlessness because you follow a law which separate you from Christ..

Galatians 5:4.." You" who are trying to be justified by the Law, have been "alienated from Christ, "YOU" have "fallen away" from Grace...

Hope you seek more of Christ..I am also keep seeking more of Him..

Who said anything about trying to be justified by the law? The law just points out sin. 1 John 3:3, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7

We do good works, because this is the fruit of a saved person- one who loves their neighbor, one who loves God with all their heart. When you love God with all your heart, obedience is a fruit of love. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, 1 John 5:3, John 15:10, Hebrews 8:10. You shall know them by their fruits. Matthew 17:15-20 and grace is not a license to sin. Romans 6:1-4. The whole point of the Bible is to be converted in the heart, sin separates us from God, Jesus is calling us to walk in obedience with Him and gives us the Holy Spirit to do so. John 14:15-18, Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32

You need to keep reading in Galatians. . .

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Similar to Revelation 22:14-15 Matthew 7:21-23 1 John 2:3-5 Matthew 19:17-19 Matthew 5:19

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

What is love according to scripture?

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. 1 John 5:3

Same as Jesus said:

If you love Me, keep My commandments John 14:15

Same as God:

Showing mercy to thousands, who love Me and keep My commandments. Exodus 20:6

And the Spirit is given to obey these commandments. John 14:15-18

If one is lead by the Spirit, the law will be kept by default and Jesus shows us an example of this by one of the Ten Commandment. Murder begins in the heart, if you change your thoughts from anger to love towards your neighbor, you will not want to literally murder your neighbor so the commandment is fulfilled both literal and in spirit. This is what Jesus wants a true heart transformation and we keep the commandments out of love. This is what Paul teaches, same as Jesus and the other disciples. One Gospel one Truth one Nation Galatians 1:6-8, Galatians 3:26-29 John 16:13 Psalms 145:18

 

[Leaf473]

Is James saying that no laws ended at the cross?

Well, let's assume it's the same James who had a congregation of believers who were also zealous for the law. This is at a time when the temple is still standing. It's possible that many in his congregation saw themselves as keeping the entire law.

James also sees that sometimes rich people are given special places to sit for the fellowship gatherings.

So maybe what he's saying is that if you think you're keeping the whole law, and you also treat rich people special, then you are actually breaking the whole law, every part of it.

 

[Christopher0121]

I was taught this...

The Law of God (Ten Commandments) is eternal and expresses God's holiness. Christians do well to keep these laws.

The Law of Moses (containing the Ordinances given to Israel on top of the Ten Commandments) ended at the Cross.

The Law of Christ (two commandments to love God and neighbor) is a supreme spiritual law which when truly lived out fulfills the Law of God through a spirit of loving devotion towards God and man.

In brief, that was what I was taught.

 

[Guojing]

Then it sounds like the body of Christ is composed of all believers, regardless of physical ancestors.

And the nation of Israel is made up of unbelieving Jews.

Does that fit with what you're saying?

Remember who Paul described as "True Israel" in Romans 9? It refers to the little flock, those from the nation of Israel who believed that Christ is their Messiah.

They are the ones, from the nation, that God deemed as true Israel.

But True Israel and the Body of Christ are not equivalent.

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile. True Israel consists only of the circumcision.

 

[expos4ever]

Paul does not teach lawlessness.

He certainly did teach that we are to no longer follow the Law of Moses:

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

 

[expos4ever]

I was taught this...

The Law of God (Ten Commandments) is eternal and expresses God's holiness. Christians do well to keep these laws.

The Law of Moses (containing the Ordinances given to Israel on top of the Ten Commandments) ended at the Cross.

That may indeed have been what you were taught. But I cannot find any scriptural basis for considering the 10 commandments to be in a separate category from the Law of Moses.

Can you provide a scriptural basis for drawing such a distinction?

 

[Leaf473]

I was taught this...

The Law of God (Ten Commandments) is eternal and expresses God's holiness. Christians do well to keep these laws.

The Law of Moses (containing the Ordinances given to Israel on top of the Ten Commandments) ended at the Cross.

The Law of Christ (two commandments to love God and neighbor) is a supreme spiritual law which when truly lived out fulfills the Law of God through a spirit of loving devotion towards God and man.

In brief, that was what I was taught.

I don't disagree with what you're saying
if we continue on and incorporate the idea that the Church has the authority
to say how we put the ten commandments into practice.

Like for example, the Church has the authority to define what an idol is.

 

[Leaf473]

Remember who Paul described as "True Israel" in Romans 9? It refers to the little flock, those from the nation of Israel who believed that Christ is their Messiah.

They are the ones, from the nation, that God deemed as true Israel.

But True Israel and the Body of Christ are not equivalent.

In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor gentile. True Israel consists only of the circumcision.

Right, the true Israel and the body of Christ are not equivalent. At the same time, the true Israel is part of the body of Christ, yes?