Did Christ at the cross end all the laws?

[expos4ever]

Are believers still under the authority of Pharisees?

I certainly do not think so. I think Paul is quite clear - all the Law of Moses has been "retired", including the 10. Again, in Romans 7, he clearly states we no longer serve according to the Law (and then cites one of the 10 as an example).

How much clearer need he be? The time of the Law is over.

Maybe I misunderstand your point. If you are asking whether believers still need to listen to Pharasaical declarations other than those related to keeping the Law, I would still say no.

 

[pescador]

I certainly do not think so. I think Paul is quite clear - all the Law of Moses has been "retired", including the 10. Again, in Romans 7, he clearly states we no longer serve according to the Law (and then cites one of the 10 as an example).

How much clearer need he be? The time of the Law is over.

Maybe I misunderstand your point. If you are asking whether believers still need to listen to Pharasaical declarations other than those related to keeping the Law, I would still say no.

Great post!

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

I certainly do not think so. I think Paul is quite clear - all the Law of Moses has been "retired", including the 10. Again, in Romans 7, he clearly states we no longer serve according to the Law (and then cites one of the 10 as an example).

How much clearer need he be? The time of the Law is over.

Maybe I misunderstand your point. If you are asking whether believers still need to listen to Pharasaical declarations other than those related to keeping the Law, I would still say no.

I agree with you and ask these questions to clear away any possible objections.

 

[Akita Suggagaki]

Of course not. Don't forget to whom Jesus was speaking -- Jews. There were no Christians at the time.

Exactly. There were gentiles but he was not speaking to them at the time. So everything he says (commands) must be seen in this context.

 

[Leaf473]

Also
Matthew 23:3
1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Are believers still under the authority of Pharisees?

That's another interesting passage.

The Pharisees would basically correspond to the Jewish rabbis of today, I think.

They often have interesting insights into the law, but no, we shouldn't do everything they say to do.

 

[pasifika]

Again, this is true, but it is not the whole story - it is clear that Paul believes that the law is both "holy" and that it serves a "darker" purpose:

But there are other indications in the same chapter that settle the matter. We have this:

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies……”

This makes things more clear. The Torah actually stimulates sinful passions – it arouses them. It does not merely reveal them.

And there’s more:

For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death

Again, Paul says that the Torah gave sin a means, a vehicle to deceive. This is not a statement that Torah reveals sin – it is the stronger claim that Torah empowers or energizes sin – gives it powers it would not otherwise have.

Paul really does hammer the point home. I do not see how one take Paul seriously and yet deny that he (Paul) is claiming that the Torah makes Israel more sinful, over and above the role of Torah in revealing sin.

I don't think the Law (Torah) has a "darker" purpose otherwise why would God give something like this to His own people...

But, I think the Law not only "revealed" our sinful nature but also "bring it out more" i.e. more "sinful" so we can see "Sin" as it is...

How? By living our lives according to the Law then, we will see how "sinful" we are more and more...

Romans 7:13..Did that which is good, then become death to Me. By No means! Nevertheless, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment "sin might become utterly sinful"..

 

[Guojing]

Well, it looks like we see that differently, then.

I think the body of Christ is composed of all believers, gentiles and Jews. (I'm assuming Jews is the same as The nation of Israel.)

Thanks for engaging, peace be with you!

The nation of Israel will inherit the Earth during the millennial kingdom, as promised to Abraham by God (Genesis 17:8, Matthew 5:5)

The Body of Christ will inherit the heavens during the same period (Ephesians 1:3)

They are two distinct groups.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

OK, lets keep it general.
First, Did Christ at the Cross change ANY Jewish laws?

It seems most agree that "ceremonial" laws were changed for Christian Jewish believers whom we can also call The Nation of Israel.

For gentle believers it is a little unclear to me since they were never under Jewish law.
This brings us to "grafting". onto the "olive root" and what that entails.

I Have always said we need to look at context.
Luke 17:14 Jesus says “Go and show yourselves to the priests.” When men were made clean. Are Christians commanded to do that today if cleansed of leprosy? I don't think so because that is Jewish Law. Does not apply to gentiles. Grafting is about faith in Jesus. Not Literal laws. And we must remember that everything Jesus said in the Gospels was in the context of speaking to Jews not gentiles.

God’s initial covenant was made with Israel. The covenant was not the problem, the problem was the people of Israel broke the covenant. The Israelites said: all the words the Lord has said we will do Exodus 24:3 but they broke the covenant. Jeremiah 11:10 The covenant was made with the Israelites but right in the Ten Commandments it states it is for everyone. Exodus 20:10 In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates.

God did not break His covenant, the Israelites did. God made a new covenant, which is more of a renewed covenant, based on better promises, but the laws never ended, God wrote them in the heart and in the mind. Hebrews 8:10. God never made a covenant with the Gentiles, the only covenant God made is with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. God’s Ten Commandments did not change in the New Covenant, its still a sin to worship other gods, vain God’s name, steal, commit adultery or break any of the commandments. James says you break one commandment you break them all quoting from the Ten Commandments. James 2:10-12

What did change in the New Covenant is the ceremonial laws and the sacrificial system which all pointed to Jesus. The old law could make nothing perfect, as it was using blood of animals, the new covenant is the blood of Christ who can cleanse us of all our sins when we ask for forgiveness and repent. Acts 2:38 The old covenant one would go to the Levitical priests for the forgiveness of sins, the new covenant Jesus is our High Priest for the forgiveness of sins. The old covenant there was a mediator between God and His people, the New Covenant Jesus is our Mediator. I hope you can see all the great things about the New Covenant, that you do not want to write yourself out of, that was made the house of Judah and house of Israel. There is no more Jew or Gentile if one is in Christ and we become part of the covenant promise Galatians 3:26-29 Colossians 3:11 Romans 11:11-24.

I think there is real danger in thinking “this doesn’t apply to me or that doesn’t”. The Bible is God’s Word to us. All scripture is written by God. 2 Timothy 3:16 and the Bible is how God’s speaks to us. We are heading into a time of trouble that we have not seen and if we are not grounded in His Word, we are going to be deceived, because the Bible promises us the devil deceives the whole world, and even the elect, if they allow. The only thing we can trust and can prepare us for what’s ahead is God’s Word, that was written to every generation including ours. There are lessons to us on every page of scripture. God cannot lie, and the law that is written by the finger of God allows us to stay on track by pointing out what sin is. The disciples tell us to test ourselves to see if we are in the faith. If we see sin in your life, its a good way to tell which direction we are going there are two choices:

Romans 6:16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

We can gain victory over sin through Jesus Philippians 4:13. Jesus provides us the Spirit so we can obey the commandments John 14:15-18 and the Spirit is given when we obey Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38. This is what the new covenant is about, having a changed heart and walking with Christ in obedience and love.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The nation of Israel will inherit the Earth during the millennial kingdom, as promised to Abraham by God (Genesis 17:8, Matthew 5:5)

The Body of Christ will inherit the heavens during the same period (Ephesians 1:3)

They are two distinct groups.

There are two groups- lost and saved. There will be Jew and Gentiles in both groups.

The lost will face judgment and eternal condemnation (death) and the saved will reign with Jesus for eternity, including the millennium.


Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The saints reign with Christ for the millennium, those who are in Christ and are saved.

The rest of the dead who are not saved did not live again until the thousand years were finished Revelation 20:5

“All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28-29)

Only those in Christ will be saved, those who are living and not saved at the time of Christ Second Coming will all perish.

With the breath of His lips He shall slay the wicked” (Isaiah 11:4).
“When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God” (2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8).
“Let the wicked perish at the presence of God” (Psalm 68:2).
“The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:5)

Satan and his angels at this time will be bound on the earth with no one to tempt.

“I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit.
He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit ... till the thousand years were finished” (Revelation 20:1–3).

Bottomless pit means abyss. The earth will be void and desolate at this time. Jeremiah 4:23,25, 28

Isaiah 24:22 They will be gathered together,
As prisoners are gathered in the pit,
And will be shut up in the prison;
After many days they will be punished.

After the 1000 years of peace for the saints, Jesus will come again for the wicked
To be judged and destroyed along with satan and His angles and there will be sin no more.

“Fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. The devil, who deceived them, was cast into ... the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 20:9, 10; 21:8).
“ ‘The wicked ... shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:3).

 

[Leaf473]

The nation of Israel will inherit the Earth during the millennial kingdom, as promised to Abraham by God (Genesis 17:8, Matthew 5:5)

The Body of Christ will inherit the heavens during the same period (Ephesians 1:3)

They are two distinct groups.

Okay... In your view, how does 1 Corinthians 12 fit with what you're saying?

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks.

 

[Guojing]

Okay... In your view, how does 1 Corinthians 12 fit with what you're saying?

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks.

After Israel fell, as Paul declared in Romans 11:11, all unbelieving Jews from the nation are uncircumcised in the eyes of God.

So if you are one of those Jews from Israel, and you want to be saved, you will need to be like us gentiles and believe in the gospel that Paul preached, which is the gospel of the uncircumcision, summarized in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

If you do that, you become part of the Body of Christ, where yes, there is neither Jew nor gentile.

 

[Leaf473]

After Israel fell, as Paul declared in Romans 11:11, all unbelieving Jews from the nation are uncircumcised in the eyes of God.

So if you are one of those Jews from Israel, and you want to be saved, you will need to be like us gentiles and believe in the gospel that Paul preached, which is the gospel of the uncircumcision, summarized in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4

If you do that, you become part of the Body of Christ, where yes, there is neither Jew nor gentile.

Then it sounds like the body of Christ is composed of all believers, regardless of physical ancestors.

And the nation of Israel is made up of unbelieving Jews.

Does that fit with what you're saying?

 

[expos4ever]

Back to the image of the Law being "written on the heart". This potent image loses all its force if we interpret is an instruction to keep referring to written law, just as you have you always done. And it appears to me that this is exactly what some here promoting.

To me, for the law to be "written on the heart" evokes images of not needing to be "told" that we are, for example, not to commit murder.

Look at what Paul writes in Romans 2:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

I think this is pretty clear - the source of informing guidance is now innate, instinctive, springing from within, not from instructions written on stone tablets. Yes, written on the heart.

To say that we need to do what we have always done - look to a written code for guidance - totally undermines this picture that Paul paints in Romans 2.

 

[Leaf473]

Back to the image of the Law being "written on the heart". This potent image loses all its force if we interpret is an instruction to keep referring to written law, just as you have you always done. And it appears to me that this is exactly what some here promoting.

To me, for the law to be "written on the heart" evokes images of not needing to be "told" that we are, for example, not to commit murder.

Look at what Paul writes in Romans 2:

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,

I think this is pretty clear - the source of informing guidance is now innate, instinctive, springing from within, not from instructions written on stone tablets. Yes, written on the heart.

To say that we need to do what we have always done - look to a written code for guidance - totally undermines this picture that Paul paints in Romans 2.

Yes... instinctively, intuitively.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

But then we have this to deal with....

Matthew 7:21 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Psalms 40:8 I delight to do Your will, O my God, And Your law is within my heart.”

We do not get to determine what sin is, God determined sin is defined by breaking the law. God's law!

1 John 3:4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

So to say its up to each individual to determine what sin is, what you seem to be saying is I delight to do my will, O my God and not Yours. God personally wrote His will for us with His own finger. We can't say we have not been warned when Jesus comes as many who think they are saved will be saying Lord Lord. . .according to scripture


1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

 

[expos4ever]

But then we have this to deal with....

Matthew 7:21 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Effectively a strawman - no one, I believe, is suggesting that we practice lawlessness, we are suggesting that we no longer need to follow a particular law - the Law of Moses.

I am a Canadian and do not follow American law. Do I therefore practice lawlessness? Of course not! I obey Canadian law.

Now this analogy is not perfect inasmuch as I still have to follow a written code of some sort (Canadian law). But Paul and the OT writers are clear - the Christian follows a law that is written on the heart in the Pauline sense - instinctively, not by reference to a written code.

 

[Leaf473]

Absolutely! Sin is determined by what is written on our hearts. We know intuitively, instinctively, when we are not following God's law, his ways.

 

[expos4ever]

We do not get to determine what sin is,...

You continue to repeat this strawman argument - no one is saying this. Please stop misrepresenting what we are saying.

.....God determined sin is defined by breaking the law. God's law!

Oversimplification. Yes, for the Jew pre-cross, the Law told the Jew what sin was. As has been shown in this thread: (a) Paul says we have been released from serving according to the Law; and (b) Jesus in many instances challenged the Law of Moses.

Now it certainly seems to be the case that James endorses obedience to the Law. And I am surprised you do not stress this more as I think it is only real argument you have. Nevertheless, I think the overall weight of textual evidence supports the assertion that the Law is behind us.

 

[expos4ever]

Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

All true, but it certainly does not follow that since the Law told the Jew what sin was at one time, that this applies eternally. In Romans 7 through 8 we see an evolution of Paul the Jew under the Law to Paul the Christian set free from the Law. I can make this case in more detail.

So to say its up to each individual to determine what sin is,...

Once more, no one is saying this. Directly or indirectly.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Effectively a strawman - no one, I believe, is suggesting that we practice lawlessness, we are suggesting that we no longer need to follow a particular law - the Law of Moses.

I am a Canadian and do not follow American law. Do I therefore practice lawlessness? Of course not! I obey Canadian law.

Now this analogy is not perfect inasmuch as I still have to follow a written code of some sort (Canadian law). But Paul and the OT writers are clear - the Christian follows a law that is written on the heart in the Pauline sense - instinctively, not by reference to a written code.

The Law of God is universal not Candian and sin is defined as breaking God's law, not what man chooses to keep or not keep, it's not multiple choice.

You keep saying "not by a written code" you mean God's written commandments that He wrote with His own finger? You will have to sort this out with God, but when God ask us to do something, I don't think that means we can disregard. James says you break one you break them all quoting directly from God's written law James 2:10-12

The Israelites did not enter into the promise land because of their disobedience Hebrews 4:6 I don't think lawlessness (defined by God as breaking His law) and disobedience from us will give us a different result into our promise land. I guess one is welcome to give it a try though since we have free will.