Help with John 10:37-38

[Carl Emerson]

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

Jesus speaking to the Jews.

My take on this is that many Jews had faith in the Father, knew the Scriptures in detail but struggled with Jesus.

Jesus then was saying to them - if you know that only the Father can do what I do, then believe that He is in Me.

Some members seem to believe that Jesus was encouraging the Jews to walk by sight rather than by faith.
I don't believe this to be the case.

Comments welcome.

 

[ewq1938]

This is basically, "Seeing is believing."

 

[Carl Emerson]

This is basically, "Seeing is believing."

Not an appeal to walk by sight rather than faith?

 

[ewq1938]

Not an appeal to walk by sight rather than faith?

No. He is trying to get them to recognize that he is there on behalf of the Father, the God the Jews worshiped. Seeing him do the works of the Father should have made them believe what he was saying.

 

[Carl Emerson]

No. He is trying to get them to recognize that he is there on behalf of the Father, the God the Jews worshiped. Seeing him do the works of the Father should have made them believe what he was saying.

Exactly - that was my take also...

 

[Guojing]

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

Jesus speaking to the Jews.

My take on this is that many Jews had faith in the Father, knew the Scriptures in detail but struggled with Jesus.

Jesus then was saying to them - if you know that only the Father can do what I do, then believe that He is in Me.

Some members seem to believe that Jesus was encouraging the Jews to walk by sight rather than by faith.
I don't believe this to be the case.

Comments welcome.

Jesus is not "encouraging them to walk by sight instead of faith", "encouraging" is the wrong perspective to take to understand signs and the nation of Israel.

The topic of Signs began at Exodus 4. So by the law of first mention, you can use that as a guide to understand later use of the same term.

Notice in Exodus 4, when Moses ask God why should the Jews believe that he was sent by God, God never tell him to tell them to believe that "in faith"?

No, God gave signs to Moses to authenticate to the nation that he was indeed sent by God to them. (Similar to "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me")

Notice the final 2 verses of that chapter

30 And Aaron spake all the words which the Lord had spoken unto Moses, and did the signs in the sight of the people.

31 And the people believed: and when they heard that the Lord had visited the children of Israel, and that he had looked upon their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped.

Right from the very beginning, the 12 tribes of Jacob only believed after they see signs. 1 Corinthians 1:22

It was the same reason why Gideon ask the angel of the Lord for signs in Judges 6.

It was also the same reason why Jesus performed signs to prove to the disciples of John the Baptist when they ask him for proof he is indeed the one to come (Luke 7:20-23)

Based on this, you can understand what Jesus was trying to teach Israel in John 10:37-38.

If they still reject Jesus as the Messiah, even after he performed so many signs, that is a major sin for the nation (John 20:30-31, Acts 2:22, Hebrews 2:4)

Indeed they stumbled at the cross. (Romans 11:11)

 

[Guojing]

No. He is trying to get them to recognize that he is there on behalf of the Father, the God the Jews worshiped. Seeing him do the works of the Father should have made them believe what he was saying.

Like when it first happened to Moses in Exodus 4.

 

[com7fy8]

Blessed are those who have not seen but believe.

But God did prove Himself by means of signs and wonders . . . but not that they would depend only on sight to believe, but that they would go on to believing by faith . . . in my opinion.

They could start with the help of outward proof, though. And we enjoy how at times He proves Himself in outward things; but what really works is how our Father proves Himself in our character, correcting us to become more how Jesus is and loves > He loves us by correcting us like this > Hebrews 12:4-14 < proving Himself to us, within us.

Therefore, faith is not only about believing because of what you have seen >

We need "faith working through love" > in Galatians 5:6. Even God's own works of proof alone can not change a person to love the way God's word means for us to love.

Also >

"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." (Hebrews 11:6)

So, having Biblical faith, I see from this, includes diligently seeking God. And this works by having spiritual connection with Him, instead of separation in sin >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

And this spiritual oneness with God has us experiencing Him . . . we are seeking and therefore actually experiencing . . . "through love" (Galatians 5:6) >

"Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us." (Romans 5:5)

So, faith has us with God in His own love so beautifully wonderful in Heaven's quality of pleasant rest and tender family caring and sharing with our Father and one another. His grace has us growing in this, in Jesus. And the "faith working" (Galatians 5:6) this "through" God's "love" is our "substance of things hoped for" (in Hebrews 11:1) > of our hope to be with God like this for eternity . . . because already we have started in this. And this connection of our sharing with God in His own love is our "evidence of things not seen" (in Hebrews 11:1) . . . how God proves Himself in us, by means of our connection of being one with God in His own love.

And this works by means of God's grace . . . of how He in His love effects us, like this.

So, faith is not limited to what we can get ourselves to will to do and believe. But faith works through God in His love.

Diligently seeking Him includes growing in Jesus so we are more and more with God by being the way Jesus is so pleasing to our Father. And so we please God. Seeking can be like how light reaches a plant and then the plant is effected by the light so the plant seeks the light, by receiving the effect and energy of the sunlight and growing in the direction of the light.

I might be in some nasty stupid stuff of conceit, self-righteously criticizing and rejecting people, but then the light of God's love effects me and I see how I am wrong. And then I see things the way the light of love has me seeing, in gentle pure kind humble light of love. And I do well to grow and go the way the light of God's love takes me.

And works even of God don't get me to do this . . . to go where I grow in love.

So this is not only a theoretical thing.

 

[com7fy8]

And faith comes by the word of God > I think this works > a practical message about living in faith of God's love >

 

[Guojing]

Blessed are those who have not seen but believe.

Have you ever wondered why God did not tell Moses to tell the Jews that in Exodus 4?

 

[Tolworth John]

Some members seem to believe that Jesus was encouraging the Jews to walk by sight rather than by faith.
I don't believe this to be the case.

He was challenging them to recognise that if someone does the work of God, what are they?

Only God can raise the dead, calm storms instantly, forgive sins, these are all things Jesus did as signs.

A sign points the way or identifies something.

They all identified Jesus as God.

 

[dqhall]

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

Jesus speaking to the Jews.

My take on this is that many Jews had faith in the Father, knew the Scriptures in detail but struggled with Jesus.

Jesus then was saying to them - if you know that only the Father can do what I do, then believe that He is in Me.

Some members seem to believe that Jesus was encouraging the Jews to walk by sight rather than by faith.
I don't believe this to be the case.

Comments welcome.

Jesus is the light of the world. Walk by faith and by light.

John 8:12 Again, therefore, Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the light of life.”
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&version=WEB
John 11:9 Jesus answered, “Aren’t there twelve hours of daylight? If a man walks in the day, he doesn’t stumble, because he sees the light of this world. 10 But if a man walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light isn’t in him.” 11 He said these things, and after that, he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”

 

[pdudgeon]

Not an appeal to walk by sight rather than faith?

No. An invitation to use their brains.
They were familiar with God and the Creation story. What Jesus was saying is that they should use what they knew about God the Father, to become familiar with God, the Son, and in so doing to also note the similarities between the two, just as they were already familiar with the things that the prophets of old had said would happen. What Jesus is saying is basically "Here I am in the flesh, just like your fathers were told would happen."

 

[A_Thinker]

37 If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38 but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

Jesus speaking to the Jews.

My take on this is that many Jews had faith in the Father, knew the Scriptures in detail but struggled with Jesus.

Jesus then was saying to them - if you know that only the Father can do what I do, then believe that He is in Me.

Some members seem to believe that Jesus was encouraging the Jews to walk by sight rather than by faith.
I don't believe this to be the case.

Comments welcome.

Jesus is speaking to the hearts of unbelievers (in this case, Jews), ... offering evidence to encourage FAITH. What He was doing is similar to modern-day apologetics.

He did this at varying points in His ministry.

 

[com7fy8]

Blessed are those who have not seen but believe.

Have you ever wondered why God did not tell Moses to tell the Jews that in Exodus 4?

no

Why do you think God did not tell Moses to tell them that?

My opinion is that Jesus came to do more than Moses came to do. So, Jesus has told us much more than it was meant for Moses to tell people.

Plus . . . in my opinion . . . about those Jews with Moses, in general . . . God knew they were not capable of the belief which ones with Jesus would become capable of.

So - - how about you?

 

[pdudgeon]

One more thought...perhaps God did not tell Moses to explain Him, because 1.Jesus knows God better than any one.
2. It was a mercy God showed to Moses, not to lay that expectation upon him.
3. Moses' job was to lead His people in the way that God showed him, and he did that.

 

[Guojing]

no

Why do you think God did not tell Moses to tell them that?

My opinion is that Jesus came to do more than Moses came to do. So, Jesus has told us much more than it was meant for Moses to tell people.

Plus . . . in my opinion . . . about those Jews with Moses, in general . . . God knew they were not capable of the belief which ones with Jesus would become capable of.

So - - how about you?

Simple answer from me, as I have quoted from Paul already in 1 Corinthians 1:22

For the Jews require a sign

 

[Guojing]

Jesus is speaking to the hearts of unbelievers (in this case, Jews), ... offering evidence to encourage FAITH. What He was doing is similar to modern-day apologetics.

He did this at varying points in His ministry.

Would you accept the definition of Faith found in Hebrews 11:1?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Based on this definition, would you agree that offering signs to encourage faith is an oxymoronic statement?

 

[A_Thinker]

Would you accept the definition of Faith found in Hebrews 11:1?

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Based on this definition, would you agree that offering signs to encourage faith is an oxymoronic statement?

No ... the signs are not the faith ... they are, rather, the seeds of faith.

Our faith is still in what we have not seen. We have only seen signs ...

 

[Guojing]

No ... the signs are not the faith ... they are, rather, the seeds of faith.

Our faith is still in what we have not seen. We have only seen signs ...

I didn't say signs are faith.

I am saying signs means you see the evidence, then you believe, as Exodus 4 first mentioned.

So if your believing comes from seeing the signs, will that qualify as faith under the definition given in Hebrews 11:1?

I am fine if you believe it will still qualify, I am just curious what your stand is.