How did demons get so evil?

[trophy33]

Before the demons were cast I to the swine they stated "have you come to torment us before the appointed time?"

Why would they say that if there was no enmity between them? They expect to go into eternal punishment.

Yes, thats a good point. But it still does not mean they live in some constant hatred towards God. Or that they do it because of hatred towards humans instead of something like addiction or nature. Is a wolf killing sheep because of hatred?

Just a technical note - torment does not have to mean eternal punishment. For an addicted, torment can be to be without his drugs. For them - to be without body to live in, possibly.

Why do you think they could not stop to do it, when they were so afraid of punishment?

 

[The Liturgist]

@The Liturgist

Sorry, but your style of argumentation is not for me. I need more effective arguments that do not require tons of various traditions, presuppositions, specific translations etc.

So I will leave your posts at that.

Forgive me, but the majority of my arguments did not employ and do not require specific translations, presuppositions, or various traditions.

I did supplement my arguments with additional material based on tradition and reason, and I did make an argument from the Septuagint text, but the core of my argument is in the Gospel text that you will find in any Bible.

 

[The Liturgist]

To reiterate @myst33, my central argument, from Sola Scriptura, is as follows:

In addition to Matthew 25:41 , which clearly refers to demons, because by virtue of their evil acts they are messengers of Satan, to claim the demons are not enemies of God is disproven by the canonical Gospels, because our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, His Apostles, and at least one unidentified follower (see Mark 9:38-41 and Luke 9:49-50) repeatedly worked one specific type of miracle, not exclusively, but very frequently, to the extent that this and physical healing seem to categorize the vast majority of their miraculous deeds.

And the words of our Lord to the demons make clear that He was their enemy, even if they tried to pretend such enmity did not work. Indeed, how could “Our name is Legion, for we are many” be interpreted as anything other than a threat?

An additional case that further demonstrates the enmity between God and the demons, his Apostles were unable to perform an exorcism due to the difficult manner in which the demon was entrenched, requiring our Lord to directly intervene, in at least one occasion, depicted in Luke 9:37-42, and I think what was quite possibly a separate occasion, depicted in Matthew 17:14-21 Mark 9:14-29 because of the added statement of our Lord, “This kind does not come out but through fasting and prayer.”

All of my other arguments were rebuttals to your apparent reliance on 1 Enoch, which you have now backtracked from. But this central argument, from the Gospels themselves, you have not responded to nor refuted, your implausible claims about Matthew 25:41 (which is itself not central to the argument) notwithstanding. The verses I rely upon rather are those cited above and all others which depict our Lord and His disciples casting out demons, which clearly establishes Him as their enemy.

Now, maybe, hypothetically, some demons could be stupid or deluded enough to not realize that our Lord is their enemy, but this seems unlikely, as the demons described in scripture are consistently cunning. And this indicates willful and malicious sin against God, and such sin is misotheism per se.

So there you go: verses that prove God is the enemy of demons, and that they hate him (otherwise why threaten him with intimidating remarks like “our name is legion?” Pure sola scriptura exegesis.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Why do you think they could not stop to do it, when they were so afraid of punishment?

Angels can't change who they are. That's why their named. Eternity is their home.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

@myst33, We discussed demons briefly at last Sunday's Bible Study. Truly we don't know a lot about them; what we do know from Scripture is that they do mean to do mankind harm, and they are intelligent, and they torment and harm us in various ways. We are working our way through Luke, and we looked Christ in the temple casting out a demon that knew exactly who he was.

Pastor shared some information regarding what the Jewish people in the Synagogue would have believed regarding demons. @The Liturgist mentioned the Book of Enoch (which is not part of the Bible in the vast majority of Churches, and likely should not be either IMO), worth the read for perspective. The Jews at that time generally held that demons were the ghosts/souls of the unrighteous who perished in the the flood, and who are separated from God and condemned to walk the earth for eternity. The Jews did try to exercise demons using rituals and incantations; we do not know if any of these processes were successful. We do know that Jesus was able to do it immediately with His Word, which is why Christian Exorcism rites use the Word of God in general, and the words of our Lord in specific.

Fallen Angles; maybe.

Bottom line is the Bible tells us what God wants us to know and what we need to know but does not always tell us what we want to know.

 

[trophy33]

Angels can't change who they are. That's why their named. Eternity is their home.

I am not sure what you wanted to say.

 

[Buzzard3]

Indeed, I saw a documentary on Fr. Amorth. He was a gentleman and a very pious presbyter in the highest ecclesiastical tradition of service, who had the utmost respect for the dignity of those he was exorcising and no respect at all for the devil and his minions.

It's been ages since I read Fr. Amoth's books, but I recall the story of him exorcising a young Italian girl who was only about eight or nine years-old at the time. She lived in a small rural village and had had very little education - she couldn't even speak Italian, but only her local dialect.

To cut a long story short, this girl suddenly began speaking a strange language that no one understood, including Fr. Amorth. The priest recorded the girl speaking in this strange tongue and sent the tape to a friend of his, who was a professor of linguists in Rome.

Turns out that what the girls was speaking was ancient Greek! There was no possible way she could have learnt that lanuage naturally, so Fr. Amorth considered it proof that she demonically possessed (a person suddenly speaking a strange language is one possible sign of possession).

I don't know how that poor young girl came to be possessed, but my guess is that it was the result of some ancient pagan (occult) custom that sometimes persist in backwaters of civilization.

 

[The Liturgist]

It's been ages since I read Fr. Amoth's books, but I recall the story of him exorcising a young Italian girl who was only about eight or nine years-old at the time. She lived in a small rural village and had had very little education - she couldn't even speak Italian, but only her local dialect.

To cut a long story short, this girl suddenly began speaking a strange language that no one understood, including Fr. Amorth. The priest recorded the girl speaking in this strange tongue and sent the tape to a friend of his, who was a professor of linguists in Rome.

Turns out that what the girls was speaking was ancient Greek! There was no possible way she could have learnt that lanuage naturally, so Fr. Amorth considered it proof that she demonically possessed (a person suddenly speaking a strange language is one possible sign of possession).

Indeed. Now some monastics have been blessed with something akin to the Gift of Tongues recorded in the early Church, in that I have encountered one, Elder Ephrem, memory eternal, who was able to communicate with me despite us not sharing any common language, but this is obviously a very different case.

If a mere child suddenly starts speaking in different languages or voices, that is one of those things strongly indicative of demonic possession versus a mental illness.

I don't know a girl that poor young girl came to be possessed, but my guess is that it was the result of some ancient pagan (occult) custom that sometimes persists in backwaters of civilization.

Most likely. There are some Pagan superstitions even now in some parts of Southern Italy from what I understand, places like Brindisi, or Calabria, or Naples, or Sicily, which have regional languages (so does Sardinia for that matter, but I haven’t heard of anything amiss in Sardinian spiritual life). Also Sardinia unlike the other places I have mentioned is not the homeland of an organized criminal gang, and I have heard those based in the other places I mention use disturbing rituals (for example, La Cosa Nostra’s perverse iconoclastic practice of burning images of saints).

Although it is alao for this reason I am a strong supporter of the Byzantine Rite / Eastern Catholic / Eastern and Oriental Orthodox practice of Chrismation (confirmation) and Communion of infants, which are a further defense against the demonic. I believe both the Orthodox and Catholic churches exorcise the water and salt used in the Holy Water before baptism as well as the infants themselves, because Satan in his cruelty does not spare innocent children.

 

[Clare73]

The explanation from the book of Enoch:
Giants from Gen 6 were children of Watchers - a race of powerful spiritual beings - and of human females. The giants were destroyed by the flood, but because they were immortal after their fathers, they only lost their bodies and wandered the earth to find another body to live in.
The "classic" mainstream explanation in traditional Christianity:
Demons are fallen angels who followed Lucifer in his rebellion against God.
I do not think this gives any reasons why demons tried to live in people, maybe just some general "because they want to harm them".
If the book of Enoch was not lost for millenias, then maybe the church would not invent this second explanation.
The "modern", more allegorical explanation:
Demons are just personifications of mental/physiological problems and satan is a personification of our personal evil inclinations and temptations.

The first thing to be clarified is the source of spiritual truth.
Spiritual truth can be neither proven nor disproven, it is a matter of faith.
I have chosen the Judeo-Christian Scriptures as my source of truth.
It is the judge of all spiritual truth and authority for me, by which I measure all spiritual truth, and will be the source of my responses; i.e., agreement or disagreement with the "Bible."

The book of Enoch is not part of the "Bible" and, therefore, is not an authoritative source for me.
Satan as a personification of anything is not in the "Bible."
Therefore, I do not view those assumptions as spiritual truth.

The Christian view of Satan is taken from Revelation 12:7-9 and, along with Jesus' encounter of him, is pretty much all we have on Satan in the NT.
The OT includes a controversy between Satan and God which Satan loses.

 

[Clare73]

Where do you get your info that demons hate God or us from?

Bible describes a diferent image of demons - they feared God, they feared judgement and Jesus even demonstrated a pity over them, allowing them to enter at least into animals.

Hardly. . .in Jewish land, banishing anything to a herd of pigs is not pity, it is punishment.
Nor do I see pity in, "Depart from me, Satan!" (Matthew 4:10), nor in
"Get behind me, Satan!" (Matthew 16:23).
I see serious aversion.

Seems more as a desperation than hatred, from their side. Like a drug addicted does evil things because he "has to".

They are desperate in their attempt to defy the God they hate and rebelled against.

 

[Eloy Craft]

I am not sure what you wanted to say.

You asked why he didn't stop being so afraid of hell

 

[Clare73]

To fear God is even a commandment, though.

So I am afraid Yoda was wrong.

Don't think so. . .

There is an appropriate place for fear, as in "fear of the law" which has unpleasant consequences when disobeyed.

 

[Clare73]

I do not think there is a causality that when you fear something, you must also hate it.

Do you have a verse saying that demons hate God or hate people? At least one.

Even though there is no evidence for it?

Rebellion is all the evidence you need to know their hatred.

 

[Clare73]

Not sure what verse you have in mind...

From what I recall, it seems that they are our enemies in the similar way like parasites or wild beasts are. Wolf is an enemy of a shepherd, but not because wolf is evil and full of hatred.

Satan tried to get Jesus not to follow God's will, but his will, which would have resulted in no redemption for mankind.
That's not about parasites or beasts, that's about eternal destruction.

How much more evidence do you need for Satan's hatred for both God and his redeemed?

 

[Clare73]

You wrote many philosophical ideas and connections between dots you personally find in it, but my point the whole time is that from Bible alone, there is not something like "all demons hate God".

I am not saying its not true, I am just saying its not explicitly said in the Bible.

Nor is it "explicitly said in the Bible" that:
God is three in one.
God is sovereign.

Nevertheless, though "not explicitly said in the Bible," the Biblical testimony presented on this thread demonstrates the existence and reality of Satan as not just a "personification," but as evil, demonstrating the nature of Satan, the purpose of Satan, and the future of Satan.

That should just about do it for those whom the Bible is the authority for spiritual truth.

 

[Buzzard3]

Now some monastics have been blessed with something akin to the Gift of Tongues recorded in the early Church, in that I have encountered one, Elder Ephrem, memory eternal, who was able to communicate with me despite us not sharing any common language

Fascinating.

If a mere child suddenly starts speaking in different languages or voices, that is one of those things strongly indicative of demonic possession versus a mental illness.

... especially if it's a "dead" language like ancient Greek!

Most likely. There are some Pagan superstitions even now in some parts of Southern Italy from what I understand, places like Brindisi, or Calabria, or Naples, or Sicily, which have regional languages (so does Sardinia for that matter, but I haven’t heard of anything amiss in Sardinian spiritual life).

I heard that "The Exorcist" book/film was based on a real-life Catholic exorcism and it all started with the child's grandmother fooling around with a Ouija board.

I don't know what it's like now, but about 30 years ago, all the spiritualsts (tarot readers, clairvoyants, fortune tellers, etc) I spoke to were terrified of the Ouija board. They sternly advised me to never ever get involved with it.

Also Sardinia unlike the other places I have mentioned is not the homeland of an organized criminal gang, and I have heard those based in the other places I mention use disturbing rituals (for example, La Cosa Nostra’s perverse iconoclastic practice of burning images of saints).

I read a book once by an ex-Mafia (LCN) member and he said the ritual of becoming a "made-man" involves taking an oath, the very first words of which are, "There is no God".

Satan-worshippers have been known to steal consecrated (Catholic) hosts which they desecrate during their "Black Mass".

Although it is also for this reason I am a strong supporter of the Byzantine Rite / Eastern Catholic / Eastern and Oriental Orthodox practice of Chrismation (confirmation) and Communion of infants, which are a further defense against the demonic. I believe both the Orthodox and Catholic churches exorcise the water and salt used in the Holy Water before baptism as well as the infants themselves, because Satan in his cruelty does not spare innocent children.

The Catholic Church holds that the Sacrament of Baptism removes the stain of Original Sin ... and that it is also an exorcism.

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"1237 Since Baptism signifies liberation from sin and from its instigator the devil, one or more exorcisms are pronounced over the candidate. The celebrant then anoints him with the oil of catechumens, or lays his hands on him, and he explicitly renounces Satan ..."

My understanding is that the CC calls baptism a "minor" exorcism, whereas an authorized Church exorcist formally delivering someone from a recognized demonic possession is a "major" exorcism.

 

[The Liturgist]

Fascinating.

... especially if it's a "dead" language like ancient Greek!

I heard that "The Exorcist" book/film was based on a real-life Catholic exorcism and it all started with the child's grandmother fooling around with a Ouija board.

I have heard that too, but the story was also obviously at a minimum sensationalized to a great extent, and I did not like the ending. There is no way a demon would give up control of a child to possess a priest and then kill the new host. They are known in the literature of the church to work together, and there are plenty of other demons working on possessing clergy of weak faith, who fall into what the Russian Orthodox call Prelest (spiritual delusion). Given that the younger priest in that film was so weak in his faith, he would have been a prime target. Also, Max von Sydow’s character I doubt would have been felled by a demon-induced heart attack; I have never heard of a pious priest succumbing to a demonic attack, although Fr. Lazarus el Antony, a Coptic Orthodox hermit who lives near the Cave of St. Anthony, in the hills above St. Anthony’s Monastery in Egypt, and celebrates the Divine Liturgy there nightly, once saw a demonic apparition and, forgetting to pray, allowed himself to be startled, falling down a rock face and seriously injured himself.

I don't know what it's like now, but about 30 years ago, all the spiritualsts (tarot readers, clairvoyants, fortune tellers, etc) I spoke to were terrified of the Ouija board. They sternly advised me to never ever get involved with it.

Well I would avoid spiritualists like the plague because the other things they do, like Tarot, and so on, are also pathways to spiritual delusion, demonic deception, and possession (demons are the real source any actual clairvoyants among them are likely getting their information from). All of these practices, including the Ouija Board and forms of divination, even reading ones horoscope, can be dangerous. I myself had an extremely dark experience after being convinced by a girlfriend in my impassioned youth to read about the meanings of the astrological signs. So all of that stuff is toxic. If I owned a newspaper, I would refuse to print horoscopes, but alas journalistic integrity seems to have always been an oxymoron in more cases than one could regard with any measure of equanymity.

I read a book once by an ex-Mafia (LCN) member and he said the ritual of becoming a "made-man" involves taking an oath, the very first words of which are, "There is no God".

That’s interesting - I hadn’t heard that, but it seems possible. I don’t really trust much of what former Mafiosos have to say one way or the other as a rule of thumb.

Satan-worshippers have been known to steal consecrated (Catholic) hosts which they desecrate during their "Black Mass".

Indeed, this is true. It also results in automatic excommunication, like procuring an abortion, or breaking the seal of the confessional, and absolution for it is reserved to the Pope (who does not of course deal with it personally; the Apostolic Penitentiary, which is also in charge of matters such as indulgences, absolves penitents in that case, with the confessor corresponding with them about the particulars of the case using a psuedonym to refer to the penitent, so as to preserve the confessional seal from the risks inherent in correspondence, although in the modern age, I regard this as itself inadequate and feel that these cases should be delegated to diocesan bishops, who would be responsible for them in the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches.

The Catholic Church holds that the Sacrament of Baptism removes the stain of Original Sin ... and that it is also an exorcism.

from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"1237 Since Baptism signifies liberation from sin and from its instigator the devil, one or more exorcisms are pronounced over the candidate. The celebrant then anoints him with the oil of catechumens, or lays his hands on him, and he explicitly renounces Satan ..."

My understanding is that the CC calls baptism a "minor" exorcism, whereas an authorized Church exorcist formally delivering someone from a recognized demonic possession is a "major" exorcism.

Indeed, Baptism is an exorcism. I believe the traditional liturgy among other things requiring holy water, requires the exorcism and blessing of “these creatures of water and salt” and the priest then would make the sign of the cross in salt in the font.

 

[Der Alte]

Yes, thats a good point. But it still does not mean they live in some constant hatred towards God. Or that they do it because of hatred towards humans instead of something like addiction or nature. Is a wolf killing sheep because of hatred?
Just a technical note - torment does not have to mean eternal punishment. For an addicted, torment can be to be without his drugs. For them - to be without body to live in, possibly.
Why do you think they could not stop to do it, when they were so afraid of punishment?

Jesus treated the demons as something evil. Would Jesus destroy anything/anyone that had even the slightest possibility/ability to reform? Jesus healed all manner of disease and infirmity. If there was the slightest possibility of demons etc. willing to be healed/changed of their own free will, the Jesus I know would have moved heaven and earth to redeem them.

Matthew 8:30-32
(30) And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
(31) So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
(32) And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.​

None of the demons chose to repent. They chose destruction over repentance.
Of course, "torment" is not necessarily "eternal" but in Matt 25:46 it definitely is.

Matthew 25:46
(46) And these shall go away into everlasting punishment:[kolasis] but the righteous into life eternal.​

The Greek word "kolasis" translated "punishment" in this vs. occurs one other time in the N.T. , I jn 4:18.

1 John 4:18
(18) There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment[kolasis]. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

He that fears has kolasis/torment is not made perfect. The "torment" is NOT corrective as some folks argue.
According to Jesus "aionios" the Greek word correctly translated "eternal" does in the fact mean "eternal."
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated 'world' only 5 times in the N.T.
“ainios” is translated eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary or mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In the following verses aionios is defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or descriptive phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aionios” never means eternity/eternal because it sometimes refer to something which is not eternal.
However, “aionios” is never defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as it is defined/described as "eternal" in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything common, ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”

[1] Luke 1:33
(33) And he shall reign [basileusei][Vb] over the house of Jacob for ever; [aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias][Nn] there shall be no end.[telos]​

In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternity.

[2] John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios]​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[3] John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[4]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
[5] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life.​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[6]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [aionios] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[7]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[8]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never [ου μη/ou mé] thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [aionios] life.​

In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.

[9]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.​

In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios [eternal] meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.

[10]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ou mé eis ton aiona][fn] see death."​

In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.

 

[TedT]

So they are born innocent? With no sin nature?

Is their birth their creation as in the creationism of the soul theory?

I said they are created innocent with a free will.

 

[Clare73]

Is their birth their creation as in the creationism of the soul theory?

I said they are created innocent

Now all you have to do is convince Paul (Romans 5:18; Ephesians 2:3).

with a free will.

Do we have the moral power to be sinless?
Why are we not free to execute that choice?

Has anyone except Jesus executed that choice?