How did demons get so evil?

[trophy33]

That is true, but inapplicable to demons.

Ergo, further to my reply to @myst33 , the enmity of demons to God can be positively asserted by the Septuagint reading of Psalm 95:5 “The gods of the gentiles are demons,” which I think it clearly the correct reading, and @myst33 , I feel that if you want to include 1 Enoch in this discussion, I can cite the Septuagint Psalter, for like 1 Enoch, Septuagint lessons are also attest to in the Qumran Caves (the Dead Sea Scrolls), and I would not that hitherto you have not objected to my use of that reading (you did object to the Douai Rheims translation of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Septuagint Psalter, which is a translation thrice removed, reading Psalm 95:5 as “ the gods of the gentiles are devils,” which is fine, since you are specifically talking about what you argue are demons, and your perspective on them which is chiefly informed by 1 Enoch.

Be that at it may, the Coptic Bible, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Churches were historically part of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, uses the Septuagint Psalter (in Coptic translation).

So, in conclusion, I would argue that one of the clearest ways of declaring oneself an enemy of God is to assert yourself to be a deity and demand worship. And I think most Christians would agree with me, and I am willing to put that to the test with a poll. For indeed, how can asserting yourself to be a God, or indeed a false prophet, or for a demon to impersonate an angel?

As an example of the latter @myst33 I would ask you to consider the case of the case of Muhammed and Islam, for either he was tricked by a demon posing as Gabriel, “Jibreel”, which is indicated by the extreme physical discomfort and terror Muhammed alleged, and Muhammed’s repeated alleged attempts at suicide before he apparently capitulated and began to “reveal” the Quran, ergo he was either posessed, deceived or a deceiver, or all three, (most likely at a minimum both deceived and a deceiver, for certain Quranic verses are completely self serving, for example the verse instructing his followers not to bother him when invited to his house for dinner by appearing before it was ready, or lingering after it was finished, or communicating with his wives except through a partition, or daring to wed one after Muhammed’s death).

And given the millions and millions of Christians martyred by Islam over the centuries, for instance, all the North African Christians, all the Christians killed by Tamerlane in the 12th century including all the members of the Church of the East outside Mesopotamia or India, how could Muhammed, free of demonic influence, in directing people to worship a false god, or Jibreel, if in fact such a demon deceived Muhammed, be regarded as anything other than enemies of Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior, who is also blasphemed in the Quran and other essential Islamic texts?

Can you present your ideas more shortly? I really do not see a need to read long posts beginning with Septuagint, going through your orthodox tradition and ending with Islam just to see if you have an explicit verse saying that all demons hate God.

 

[trophy33]

I do not see a logical fallacy in @Mark Quayle ’s argument. I do see a logical fallacy however of appeal to false or questionable authority in your posts, in which you are using 1 Enoch, which most Christians reject as apocrypha, and which the only two major churches who accept it accept it using Alsxandrian non-literal interpretation, as a means of overriding 1 Matthew 25:41, which does establish a clear and unambiguous connection between the demons and Satan.

But furthermore, even that aside, your arguments don’t stand, because the demons are enemies of God, and to claim otherwise disproves all of the canonical Gospels and Acts:

Consider - Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is God Incarnate (John 1:1-17). As God Incarnate, the only begotten Son and Word of God having assumed our humanity of the Blessed Virgin Mary according to the Scriptures through miraculous conception by the Holy Spirit, what is the one miracle our Lord, and the Apostles, both before and after being indwelt by the Holy Spirit on Pentecost in Acts, and also at least one other (see Mark 9:38-41 and Luke 9:49-50) consistently worked?

Why, the exorcism of demons, of course, which our Lord and His apostles, and at least one, possibly two (if the incidents in Luke and Mark were different, which they perhaps were, perhaps not) did repeatedly. And the words of our Lord to the demons make clear that He was their enemy, even if they tried to pretend such enmity did not work. Indeed, how could “Our name is Legion, for we are many” be interpreted as anything other than a threat? And insofar as the

in one case that further demonstrates the enmity between God and the demons, his Apostles were unable to perform an exorcism due to the difficult manner in which the demon was entrenched, requiring our Lord to directly intervene, in at least one occasion, depicted in Luke 9:37-42, and I think what was quite possibly a separate occasion, depicted in Matthew 17:14-21 Mark 9:14-29 and Matthew because of the added statement of our Lord, “This kind does not come out but through prayer” in Mark, attested across all text types, and in Matthew, following the Byzantine or Majority Text/Textus Receptus which the KJV, Vulgate, Peshitta and the Greek Bibles in use in the Greek churches use, historically the main translation, “through fasting and prayer.”

Many words, but I do not see much to the point. Not sure why you talk about unrelated things like that Christ is God incarnate, about Mary etc.

Also, I am not sure what usage of 1 Enoch "in my posts" you are talking about. I only mentioned the book of Enoch generally as one of explanation of the origin of demons. I do not claim its inspired or in the bible.

 

[friend of]

Many words, but I do not see much to the point. Not sure why you talk about unrelated things like that Christ is God incarnate, about Mary etc.

Also, I am not sure what usage of 1 Enoch "in my posts" you are talking about. I only mentioned the book of Enoch generally as one of explanation of the origin of demons. I do not claim its inspired or in the bible.

Before the demons were cast I to the swine they stated "have you come to torment us before the appointed time?"

Why would they say that if there was no enmity between them? They expect to go into eternal punishment.

 

[rockytopva]

If I were given a way to survive the environment on Mars I could do very little with the iron-based compositions save make sandcastles. My options are two....

1. Chemically - Find a way to chemically react with the environment to produce elements.
2. Nuclear Reactions - Turn the mass to plasma and reform it into another form of mass...

And how would I do that nuclearly? Well, if E = MC2 I can divide and conclude that mass can turn into plasma and plasma back into mass...

M <--- E / C2 = Fusion (energy to mass)

Energy and light are released as the matter is bonded and produces the most intense energy as seen in the Hydrogen Bomb. As of yet we have not figured out how to make fusion useful for the generation of our energy needs.

M ---> E / C2 = Fission (mass to energy)

Energy and light are released as the matter is split. The released energy is not as great as the fusion process. I believe all mass was once a great piece of matter floating in space until God spoke these words… Let there be light! At that point the mass turned to energy and light, expanding out from a point of origin and then re-freezing into what elements the Father willed it. Are we experiments from the eternal mind? If so, we will return to him to give an account on how we lived our life here on earth.

M + M ---> E / C2 = Reaction producing energy and light

Energy and light are released as matter reacts one with another. Fossil fuels reacting with oxygen can produce a great deal of energy. But not nearly as great as the fission process. By products to this reaction include CO2 gas, which is harmful to the environment. The Martian atmosphere is 95% CO2 carbon dioxide. But if we can’t figure out to easily strip the C from CO2 on earth how could I do it on Mars? But… Our plant life does this quite easily in a process called photosynthesis. If we had the temperature to do so we would have to develop plant life first to strip the C from the CO2.

I also believe that there is a spiritual that is produced with energy and light…

Spiritual Mass = Spiritual Warmth / Spiritual Light (faith, hope, charity, joy, warmth, goodness, etc)

In which the opposite of that would be…

Spiritual Nothing = Spiritual Cold / Spiritual Darkness (fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

I believe when Lucifer and his angels were cast out of heaven that they were also stripped of true spiritual light. And much light turned to arrogance. This, and the resulting spiritual darkness made for many evil creatures!

 

[TedT]

So, to your mind, sin is always conscious rebellion? Not simply natural act, self-interested, of a sinful nature that is at enmity with God?

Both I believe...but it must start with a conscious free will decision to rebel which is then expressed as a more subtle expression of their new nature as sinful.

 

[Mark Quayle]

That is true, but inapplicable to demons.

Ergo, further to my reply to @myst33 , the enmity of demons to God can be positively asserted by the Septuagint reading of Psalm 95:5 “The gods of the gentiles are demons,” which I think it clearly the correct reading, and @myst33 , I feel that if you want to include 1 Enoch in this discussion, I can cite the Septuagint Psalter, for like 1 Enoch, Septuagint lessons are also attest to in the Qumran Caves (the Dead Sea Scrolls), and I would not that hitherto you have not objected to my use of that reading (you did object to the Douai Rheims translation of the Latin Vulgate translation of the Septuagint Psalter, which is a translation thrice removed, reading Psalm 95:5 as “ the gods of the gentiles are devils,” which is fine, since you are specifically talking about what you argue are demons, and your perspective on them which is chiefly informed by 1 Enoch.

Be that at it may, the Coptic Bible, and the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox Churches were historically part of the Coptic Orthodox Church of Alexandria, uses the Septuagint Psalter (in Coptic translation).

So, in conclusion, I would argue that one of the clearest ways of declaring oneself an enemy of God is to assert yourself to be a deity and demand worship. And I think most Christians would agree with me, and I am willing to put that to the test with a poll. For indeed, how can asserting yourself to be a God, or indeed a false prophet, or for a demon to impersonate an angel?

As an example of the latter @myst33 I would ask you to consider the case of the case of Muhammed and Islam, for either he was tricked by a demon posing as Gabriel, “Jibreel”, which is indicated by the extreme physical discomfort and terror Muhammed alleged, and Muhammed’s repeated alleged attempts at suicide before he apparently capitulated and began to “reveal” the Quran, ergo he was either posessed, deceived or a deceiver, or all three, (most likely at a minimum both deceived and a deceiver, for certain Quranic verses are completely self serving, for example the verse instructing his followers not to bother him when invited to his house for dinner by appearing before it was ready, or lingering after it was finished, or communicating with his wives except through a partition, or daring to wed one after Muhammed’s death).

And given the millions and millions of Christians martyred by Islam over the centuries, for instance, all the North African Christians, all the Christians killed by Tamerlane in the 12th century including all the members of the Church of the East outside Mesopotamia or India, how could Muhammed, free of demonic influence, in directing people to worship a false god, or Jibreel, if in fact such a demon deceived Muhammed, be regarded as anything other than enemies of Jesus Christ, our Lord, God and Savior, who is also blasphemed in the Quran and other essential Islamic texts?

OT, but how do you do put the handle of another poster up in a way that alerts them? I know I did it at one time, but I can't seem to do it anymore. I can type @liturgist, but it lacks all the other user info. And it wasn't by hand typing it, but copying it somehow, anyway.

 

[Mark Quayle]

"So, to your mind, sin is always conscious rebellion?"
No, not at all. I never said any such thing. Clearly though, it is possible to sin by choosing to do something you know is wrong, and could choose not to do, but you still do it anyway.
Sin is always self interested, self interest is the motive more often than not, not a hatred of God
(though some sins may come from that). People can be motivated by many things.

You seemed to equate "expressing hatred" with mere "hatred". One can hate without even realizing it. That is what sin does. One can sin without even knowing he hates God. He need not consciously be expressing hatred.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Both I believe...but it must start with a conscious free will decision to rebel which is then expressed as a more subtle expression of their new nature as sinful.

So they are born innocent? With no sin nature?

 

[enoob57]

It is a common misconception that Sola Scriptura is a scriptural doctrine, but this is not so, for 2 Timothy does not actually mention tradition let alone declare that “God only allows Scriptures that seat” as you contend.

God has chosen written communication way back to Moses and all the way through to Revelation and at the end of said Revelation God placed a seal upon all that was written... clearly God was done with His Word and then most clearly states Scripture's purpose
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
throughly furnished

as this is the inspired Word of God saying His written Scriptures would be all that is needed (equip fully)... that is good enough for me. Remember God says this
John 12:47-50 (KJV)
[47] And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
[48] He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
[49] For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
[50] And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

We know when The Holy Spirit came and indwelt them at Pentecost and this promise was fulfilled
John 14:26 (KJV)
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
thus the NT of His blood is complete by the seal of Revelation... so it will not be traditions of man but the Word of God we each shall answer to or better give an account of ourselves to It's precepts!

On the contrary, the role of Sacred Tradition is positively asserted in 2 Corinthians 2:15 and again in Galatians 1:8-9, and indeed 1 Corinthians 11:2, in which St. Paul says “I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you.” And the Greek word for Traditions in this context is Paradosis, which literally translates to Traditions. For this reason traditional Protestants such as Anglicans*, Lutherans, Methodists**, Moravians and others do maintain traditions in at least a secondary capacity, and note that Anglicanism and Lutheranism are the largest Protestant denominations and the third and fourth largest (Roman Catholicism being the largest and Eastern Orthodoxy being the second largest).

Sorry the Word of God has already told me where to look and what importance it is! They were going from OT law to NT grace and that was quite a transition... so tradition at that time was needful as the Scripture was not fully formed yet BUT we have the completed Word and we have what God Himself says of it

 

[The Liturgist]

God has chosen written communication way back to Moses and all the way through to Revelation and at the end of said Revelation God placed a seal upon all that was written... clearly God was done with His Word and then most clearly states Scripture's purpose
2 Timothy 3:15 (KJV)
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
throughly furnished
View attachment 314585

View attachment 314586
as this is the inspired Word of God saying His written Scriptures would be all that is needed (equip fully)... that is good enough for me. Remember God says this
John 12:47-50 (KJV)
[47] And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
[48] He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
[49] For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
[50] And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

We know when The Holy Spirit came and indwelt them at Pentecost and this promise was fulfilled
John 14:26 (KJV)
[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
thus the NT of His blood is complete by the seal of Revelation... so it will not be traditions of man but the Word of God we each shall answer to or better give an account of ourselves to It's precepts!


Sorry the Word of God has already told me where to look and what importance it is! They were going from OT law to NT grace and that was quite a transition... so tradition at that time was needful as the Scripture was not fully formed yet BUT we have the completed Word and we have what God Himself says of it

This is offtopic, but you are engaging in eisegesis, and reading 2 Timothy out of context (at the time it was written, “Scripture” consisted of the Old Testament only), you’re reading the Apocalypse out of context because of its frequent but not universal placement at the end of those Biblical manuscripts that have it, ignoring that the Assyrian Church of the East, which was the largest in the world, stretching from Syria to Mongolia and Tibet and from Yemen to Sri Lanka, until Tamerlane in the 12th century killed all of its faithful outside of Mesopotamia and India, regards it as deuterocanonical, and furthermore your quote from John if anything reinforces the role of Holy Tradition guided by the Holy Spirit. And nothing you have said refutes 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Galatians 1:8-9 and 1 Corinthians 11:2. And you also ignored the fact that John 1:1-17 establishes The Word of God as referring to Jesus Christ, God incarnate.

Thus it is clear and evident why all of the major Protestant denominations ascribe at least a secondary role to tradition, and likewise the Orthodox position of viewing Holy Scripture as the center of Tradition is justified.

But again, this whole discussion is irrelevant because @Mark Quayle and I have, using scripture alone, refuted the arguments against demons being anything other than diabolical enemies of God, and in citing Holy Tradition I am merely adding more fuel to the fire so to speak, for the benefit of the majority of Christians who believe in it.

Thus I am unwilling to debate the role of Tradition further in this thread, but if you feel so compelled, perhaps open another thread in a suitable forum, but as it is your argument in this thread has not contributed, in my opinion, to the actual discussion of the thread, because, I mean, if you reject tradition, fine, I don’t have a problem with that as your faith is your faith, but at least in that case please “do us a solid” as the British like to say and provide scripture in support of one side or the other of the relevant argument, which in this case is about whether or not demons are enemies of God, and why they are so evil. And I would in fact appreciate a scriptural contribution from you on that point! Especially if you agree with our conclusions and can think of additional verses in support of our exegesis we might be missing (since one is not usually asked to defend the doctrine that demons are evil).

 

[The Liturgist]

OT, but how do you do put the handle of another poster up in a way that alerts them? I know I did it at one time, but I can't seem to do it anymore. I can type @liturgist, but it lacks all the other user info. And it wasn't by hand typing it, but copying it somehow, anyway.

You have to preface their username with @ , their entire username, with spaces and so on. So to mention me in a thread, which alerts me, you would put in @The Liturgist and to mention you I would put in @Mark Quayle . For users with tricky usernames like my friend @MarkRohfrietsch who for the life of me I can never remember how to spell his last name correctly, despite being ethnically German (and Swedish) myself, I just type @markr and the forum has an autocomplete feature that will prompt me with the rest of his username, and show me his avatar; this can also present a list of users with similar names which allows me to select the one I want and confirm I am mentioning the right user.

If you look at the BB code you can also confirm the USER ID number which is inserted in USER tags when you use the @ character. For example, you are no. 410020 and I am no. 424341

 

[The Liturgist]

If I were given a way to survive the environment on Mars I could do very little with the iron-based compositions save make sandcastles. My options are two....

1. Chemically - Find a way to chemically react with the environment to produce elements.
2. Nuclear Reactions - Turn the mass to plasma and reform it into another form of mass...

And how would I do that nuclearly? Well, if E = MC2 I can divide and conclude that mass can turn into plasma and plasma back into mass...

M <--- E / C2 = Fusion (energy to mass)

Energy and light are released as the matter is bonded and produces the most intense energy as seen in the Hydrogen Bomb. As of yet we have not figured out how to make fusion useful for the generation of our energy needs.

M ---> E / C2 = Fission (mass to energy)

Energy and light are released as the matter is split. The released energy is not as great as the fusion process. I believe all mass was once a great piece of matter floating in space until God spoke these words… Let there be light! At that point the mass turned to energy and light, expanding out from a point of origin and then re-freezing into what elements the Father willed it. Are we experiments from the eternal mind? If so, we will return to him to give an account on how we lived our life here on earth.

M + M ---> E / C2 = Reaction producing energy and light

Energy and light are released as matter reacts one with another. Fossil fuels reacting with oxygen can produce a great deal of energy. But not nearly as great as the fission process. By products to this reaction include CO2 gas, which is harmful to the environment. The Martian atmosphere is 95% CO2 carbon dioxide. But if we can’t figure out to easily strip the C from CO2 on earth how could I do it on Mars? But… Our plant life does this quite easily in a process called photosynthesis. If we had the temperature to do so we would have to develop plant life first to strip the C from the CO2.

I also believe that there is a spiritual that is produced with energy and light…

Spiritual Mass = Spiritual Warmth / Spiritual Light (faith, hope, charity, joy, warmth, goodness, etc)

In which the opposite of that would be…

Spiritual Nothing = Spiritual Cold / Spiritual Darkness (fear, despair, greed, sorrow)

I believe when Lucifer and his angels were cast out of heaven that they were also stripped of true spiritual light. And much light turned to arrogance. This, and the resulting spiritual darkness made for many evil creatures!

Actually if you want pure E = mc^2 while it does occur with nuclear fission and fusion, the highest amount of conversion happens if you react matter and antimatter, and also when mass falls into a black hole and is then, in a mature black hole, emitted as pure Hawking radiation.

 

[The Liturgist]

Many words, but I do not see much to the point.

I provided a series of scriptural proofs showing, incontrovertibly, that demons are enemies of God. Respectfully, I would ask you reread the post in light of your earlier posts and either provide a compelling counter argument or capitulate, because as I see it, this issue is settled, and claiming irrelevance is something of a non-sequitur.

Also, if you do not regard 1 Enoch as canonical, tres bien, but I wish you had in that case not bothered to mention it, because you basically had me replying to what amounted to a red herring, and that is frustrating in theological discourse.

Not sure why you talk about unrelated things like that Christ is God incarnate, about Mary etc.

It is directly related! Because Jesus Christ is God incarnate, and is a clear enemy of the demons, as is evidenced by all of the interactions between then, we can say with certainty that the demons are enemies of God.

Also, perish the thought we might forget or disregard that the Incarnation of the Word, our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, and His salvation of us, is the whole message of the entire Bible, as is shown in the conclusion of the Gospel According to Luke, when Christ opens the books of what we now call the Old Testament and shows the remaining eleven faithful disciples that they are all about Him.

 

[The Liturgist]

Can you present your ideas more shortly? I really do not see a need to read long posts beginning with Septuagint, going through your orthodox tradition and ending with Islam just to see if you have an explicit verse saying that all demons hate God.

Frankly, no; you made an argument that requires a thorough rebuttal explaining the manifold ways demons hate God, and I have already provided numerous verses, and since that was apparently insufficient, I am now compelled to show you through reason and example why those verses prove that demons are enemies of God.

Which frankly, I feel I shouldn’t even have to, insofar as this is the doctrine adhered to by pretty much everyone at all times and everywhere (thus meeting the criteria set in the 5th century by St. Vincent of Lerins for establishing authentic Christian doctrine).

 

[The Liturgist]

You wrote many philosophical ideas and connections between dots you personally find in it, but my point the whole time is that from Bible alone, there is not something like "all demons hate God".

I am not saying its not true, I am just saying its not explicitly said in the Bible.

And that point has been refuted because it is explicitly said, repeatedly and in manifold ways, as we have previously shown.

 

[Eloy Craft]

don't see a reason for the scripture equating that we will be judging demons in the next life there is no need for us to judge a continuous stream of people who are identically guilty an

This statement cracked me up! Not to worry. Judgement isn't something one does in eternity. Judgement is something you are.
Remember Jesus saying " the queen of the south will rise up and condemn this generation"
What she did before she died is the reason her presence judges. Our presence judges

 

[rockytopva]

Actually if you want pure E = mc^2 while it does occur with nuclear fission and fusion, the highest amount of conversion happens if you react matter and antimatter, and also when mass falls into a black hole and is then, in a mature black hole, emitted as pure Hawking radiation.

Wow! What a reply! Thank you! I will have to spend some time in Hawking material after reading that!

 

[Sorn]

You seemed to equate "expressing hatred" with mere "hatred". One can hate without even realizing it. That is what sin does. One can sin without even knowing he hates God. He need not consciously be expressing hatred.

No, you conclusion is wrong. Hate is an active emotion, one can not hate without being aware of it. Whether such a person wants to acknowledge it or not is a different matter but hate is an active emotion

 

[rockytopva]

No, you conclusion is wrong. Hate is an active emotion, one can not hate without being aware of it. Whether such a person wants to acknowledge it or not is a different matter but hate is an active emotion

Is the spiritual emotional? If so we can become spiritual by some physical reaction. I would say the spiritual is rather mystical. "inspiring a sense of spiritual mystery, awe, and fascination." One can, therefore, become spiritual fasting from the pleasures of life.

 

[trophy33]

@The Liturgist

Sorry, but your style of argumentation is not for me. I need more effective arguments that do not require tons of various traditions, presuppositions, specific translations etc.

So I will leave your posts at that.