Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[misput]

But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. - Revelation 21:8 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:8 - American Standard Version

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:19-21 Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:19-21 - American Standard Version

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. - Ephesians 5:3-5 Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5:3-5 - American Standard Version

and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:38-42,49-50 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 13:49-50 - American Standard Version

Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:13-23 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:13-23 - American Standard Version

But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. - Matthew 25:31-46 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:31-46 - American Standard Version

Thank you for pointing out the sharp contradiction between team anti hell and team hell. There seems to be several of these controversial subjects in scripture. Is God the author of confusion or do we just not understand? Maybe we should just humble our self, trust that we do not have to figure it out but just have faith that God already has.

 

[rjs330]

Thank you for pointing out the sharp contradiction between team anti hell and team hell. There seems to be several of these controversial subjects in scripture. Is God the author of confusion or do we just not understand? Maybe we should just humble our self, trust that we do not have to figure it out but just have faith that God already has.

I whole heatedly agree. That's why I won't call God a torture or a monster. Cause I trust his judgements will be righteous, holy and true. No one will say in the end that his judgements are uncalled for or unfair. Cause we will be in full understanding of who God is and will have perfect understanding on why his judgements are right.

Team anti-hell only take scriptures out of context or they twist and insert their own interpretation on them. The truth is the scriptures they use cannot mean what they say because they contradict the verses and context of scripture.

When we put the two together we get the actual picture of what has occurred in Christ's sacrifice and the provision for salvation. Jesus summed it up perfectly for us. He came not not condemn the world but that the world THROUGH himight be saved. For the world is already condemned. That whosoever believeth on him shall have everlasting life.

It's not unclear. Jesus came, dies and rose again so that everyone has an opportunity to access the grace of God. You must be born again. If everyone in the world believed on him then all would be saved. But Jesus knew everyone wouldn't. Because men love darkness rather than light. The doctrine is CLEAR. God doesn't judge and put everyone into hell at the end. God also doesnt put everyone into heaven either. But everyone COULD be there if only they believed and were born again. God chose to make salvation conditional on faith in Christ. Why? So no one could boast that they got to heaven on their own merits.

 

[Hmm]

That's why I won't call God a torture or a monster. Cause I trust his judgements will be righteous, holy and true. No one will say in the end that his judgements are uncalled for or unfair.

Or you could just avoid all cognitive dissonance whatsoever and just say that God is not a torturer.

Torture, let alone torture that pointlessly goes on forever, is always wrong and so it's meaningless to say that God may torture people, we don't know if He will or not, but if He does He would have His reasons for it and they would be good because He is God, it's just that we don't know what they are yet. There are never good reasons for torture, just like there is never a justification for child abuse.

 

[rjs330]

Or you could just avoid all cognitive dissonance whatsoever and just say that God is not a torturer.

Torture, let alone torture that pointlessly goes on forever, is always wrong and so it's meaningless to say that God may torture people, we don't know if He will or not, but if He does He would have His reasons for it and they would be good because He is God, it's just that we don't know what they are yet. There are never good reasons for torture, just like there is never a justification for child abuse.

If God does it it's not torture. It justice as he sees it. I trust his judgement in all things.

 

[misput]

Or you could just avoid all cognitive dissonance whatsoever and just say that God is not a torturer.

Torture, let alone torture that pointlessly goes on forever, is always wrong and so it's meaningless to say that God may torture people, we don't know if He will or not, but if He does He would have His reasons for it and they would be good because He is God, it's just that we don't know what they are yet. There are never good reasons for torture, just like there is never a justification for child abuse.

Good reasoning but human reasoning is not Godly reasoning. Don't give up though, He said "come, let us reason together" and who knows, maybe He will give us the answer if He thinks we really need to know.

 

[Hmm]

Good reasoning but human reasoning is not Godly reasoning

Would you agree that scripture condemns torture and child abuse? So is my reasoning really human or could it possibly be Godly?

God would not set us moral standards to uphold that He doesn't Himself. He's not a hypocrite.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

So if Jesus takes away the sin of the world it means He removes any separation from God anywhere in the while world.

Yesss!

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:19)

Clearly that hasn't happened now because we and the world are all still separated from God. So He must be talkin about a point in the future and most probably something that is outside of space and time altogether.

It's a two-way street, God has reconciled the world to Him, it's our job to 'Be ye reconciled', with the help of the Spirit. Which means looking to Christ, and walking the path. The guarantee is that all the nations will come:

 

[Shrewd Manager]

This is where I get hung up on the vicarious atonement doctrine.

My current understanding is that Jesus paid the death penalty due for all of humankind, rather than for individual sins. (plural) He dealt with sin (singular) not sins (plural).

That's high on my list of pet hates, the legalist transactional soteriology of penal substitutionary atonement. What is Jesus' strongest injunction? Throw the money changers from the Temple! It's not 'One penny over - bliss; one penny under - misery!' None but Christ is worthy 'on the books', all have sinned and fallen short, so be a shrewd manager and release your master's debtors from His infinite storehouse of goodwill. God wasn't constrained by the law to smash the hell out of his beloved Son to balance the books on man's transgressions, what an absolutely imbecilic idea.

Team Hell and Team Lump & Dump share many of the same players. Doomed and absurd theology.

Anyway, yes I suggest it's more fruitful to consider that on the cross Jesus broke the power of sin (the indwelling crouching animal), and he who employs it to pay out on you (the devil).

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Don't give up though, He said "come, let us reason together"

And then He said, 'though your sins are scarlet, they shall be white as snow'. He could have said 'your sins are scarlet and you're gonna burn forever for it, you loathsome spiders you'.

 

[misput]

Would you agree that scripture condemns torture and child abuse? So is my reasoning really human or could it possibly be Godly?

God would not set us moral standards to uphold that He doesn't Himself. He's not a hypocrite.

It seems to me folks on either side of this issue are not willing or able to seek an unbiased answer to to the seeming contradictions we are seeing in scripture, although there surly is one. Just saying the same things over and over is not answering the question. I admit I do not know the answer to this as well as several other puzzling questions. For instance: Why did God create a world that He knew was going to be such a mess? So I have decided it is best to just have faith in God, otherwise I fear it could cause my faith to falter.

 

[Hmm]

It seems to me folks on either side of this issue are not willing or able to seek an unbiased answer to to the seeming contradictions we are seeing in scripture, although there surly is one

"seeming" is the operative word. I'm not a Bible scholar but all the "contradictions" I've come across have been simple translation errors from the ancient Greek. Jesus said "kolasis anonios" which means something like "corrective punishment for a time limited duration" but it's translated in most English Bibles, but by no means all, as "eternal punishment'". If you bear that in mind every time you see "eternal punishment, that's one seeming contradiction dealt with. I'm sure there's similar explanations for all the others, as you suggest, but that's the big one I think.

For instance: Why did God create a world that He knew was going to be such a mess?

I agree, we don't know the answers to big questions like that. But the question of whether God will ever torture anyone is not a big question. It's a baby question and the answer is No.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Why did God create a world that He knew was going to be such a mess?

For purposes of Salvation (the aleph and omega), why else? And if all are saved, divine glory is perfected. Even the hound of heaven has his performance targets.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope. (Rom 8:20)

So why not strive to be perfect even as God is perfect, and dare to hope larger!

 

[Saint Steven]

For purposes of Salvation (the aleph and omega), why else? And if all are saved, divine glory is perfected. Even the hound of heaven has his performance targets.

For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope. (Rom 8:20)

So why not strive to be perfect even as God is perfect, and dare to hope larger!

God subjected creation to frustration IN HOPE... (for a purpose)

I saw the phrase "in hope" at the end of the verse and had to see the next verse. Wow.

Rom 8:20-21 NIV
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

 

[rjs330]

Would you agree that scripture condemns torture and child abuse? So is my reasoning really human or could it possibly be Godly?

God would not set us moral standards to uphold that He doesn't Himself. He's not a hypocrite.

Here we go again with God violates human reasoning. Is God just?
Is God in anyway unjust?
Is God righteous?
Are His Judgements true?
Does God know and see all things?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

God subjected creation to frustration IN HOPE... (for a purpose)

I saw the phrase "in hope" at the end of the verse and had to see the next verse. Wow.

Rom 8:20-21 NIV
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Let the holy water flow! And as is written:

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1)

If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself. (2 Tim 2:13)

So God's hope crystallises into faith and faithfulness, ergo He cannot but deliver on said hope.

 

[rjs330]

Yesss!

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor 5:19)

No! Scripture taken out of context again!

For we must all be made manifest before the judgment-seat of Christ; that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he hath done, whether it be good or bad.Knowing therefore the fear of the Lord, we persuade men, but we are made manifest unto God; and I hope that we are made manifest also in your consciences.We are not again commending ourselves unto you, but speak as giving you occasion of glorying on our behalf, that ye may have wherewith to answer them that glory in appearance, and not in heart.For whether we are beside ourselves, it is unto God; or whether we are of sober mind, it is unto you.For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that one died for all, therefore all died;and he died for all, that they that live should no longer live unto themselves, but unto him who for their sakes died and rose again.Wherefore we henceforth know no man after the flesh: even though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now we know him so no more.Wherefore if any man is in Christ, he is a new creature: the old things are passed away; behold, they are become new.But all things are of God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and gave unto us the ministry of reconciliation;to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation. - 2 Corinthians 5:10-19 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 5:10-19 - American Standard Version

It is those that are IN CHRIST that are new creatures and walk not after the flesh. Christ was reconciling all the world so they could be of God through him. You have to believe in Christ here and now. You don't get another chance after you die.

And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in them that perish:in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them. - 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 - American Standard Version

Paul even says this in his first letter to the Corinthians.

Nay, but ye yourselves do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with men,nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:8-11 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 6:8-11 - American Standard Version

 

[Saint Steven]

.

I like the new avatar. Holding out hope.
I thought we had a new visitor.
Wondered why they had the same username...
wait... Oh, I see. - lol

 

[Hmm]

God subjected creation to frustration IN HOPE... (for a purpose)

I saw the phrase "in hope" at the end of the verse and had to see the next verse. Wow.

Rom 8:20-21 NIV
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

Great verse which I wasn't familiar with.

If hell is anything it's the eradication of this bondage to decay through healing, which may be painful, as healing often is and purification: "Everyone will be salted with fire". Salt is a purifying element and was added to sacrifices in biblical times to make them holy. Fire is an biblical image of purification and refining, burning away what is impure to leave the pure gold behind.

Some people spend their time in this life building a life of good works upon the solid rock of Christ. They have built up treasure in heaven. You can imagine that Putin types will will lose everything but even they will eventually make it through but only after being figuratively stripped bare and with nothing to show for their lives in this world.

 

[rjs330]

seems to me folks on either side of this issue are not willing or able to seek an unbiased answer to to the seeming contradictions we are seeing in scripture, although there surly is one. Just saying the same things over and over is not answering the question.

There are no contradictions in scripture. God would never contradict himself. Therefore if someone claims the scripture says something and another says something else one of them is wrong. How do we determine who is wrong?

By scripture! Letting scripture interpret scripture. In this case scripture clearly refutes UR. So as I have said, it's exactly as scripture says. Which is Christ died for all to provide reconcilliation for all who believe. It's that simple. UR claims all will believe, but experience and scripture tells us not all will do so before they die. So they have to believe after death and there is NO scripture that says that.

 

[Saint Steven]

And hope does not disappoint us.

Romans 5:3-8 NRSV
And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not disappoint us, because God’s love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit that has been given to us.
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.