Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Hmm]

Garbage in...garbage out.

That's a great defn. of indoctrination.

Imagine a judge who has only two punishments available to her, aquittal or eternal torture. So if you go up before her for stealing a can of coke and there's video evidence incriminating you, she can only has the one option...

No warnings, no corrective or rehabilitative punishment. It's either complete aquittal or the worst punishment imaginable.

That's the god of Team Hell. He has no discretionary powers at all. Even Sharia law has more flexibility that that. It's very strange.

 

[rjs330]

That's a great defn. of indoctrination.

Imagine a judge who has only two punishments available to her, aquittal or eternal torture. So if you go up before her for stealing a can of coke and there's video evidence incriminating you, she can only has the one option...

No warnings, no corrective or rehabilitative punishment. It's either complete aquittal or the worst punishment imaginable.

That's the god of Team Hell. He has no discretionary powers at all. Even Sharia law has more flexibility that that. It's very strange.

Imagine a judge who only two choices acquittal and eternal torture. And you go before him for raping, torturing, mutilating, murdering and cannibalizing a three year old child. Oh and you ate them while they were alive.

No warnings, no corrective action, no rehabilitative punishment.

Cause that's what it's like when you reject the sacrifice Christ made when he humbled himself, suffered and died on the cross and became sin for us all so we could be saved. And we just spit on him and say thanks but no thanks. Yeah, it's like that.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Imagine a judge who only two choices acquittal and eternal torture. And you go before him for raping, torturing, mutilating, murdering and cannibalizing a three year old child. Oh and you ate them while they were alive.

Sounds like they might be a bit short on hard evidence to convict after I've wolfed him down. 'Kid? What kid? Like a burger, officer?'

But seriously, what you have there is a category error. God doesn't answer evil with evil, but with good. It is far better that the perp confronts what he's done in truth, so that he may become a force for good. In that case it would take many many years in prison labouring for Christ before any hope of parole. The torment is in the mind when the conscience is exposed to the fullness of the sin.

Cause that's what it's like when you reject the sacrifice Christ made when he humbled himself, suffered and died on the cross and became sin for us all so we could be saved. And we just spit on him and say thanks but no thanks. Yeah, it's like that.

And what of, 'Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do'?

Are these the major landmarks of the theology you're presenting, where man is:

• born sinful for no apparent reason
  
• saddled with the crimes of deicide, regicide, high treason etc for reasons he can't comprehend
• facing eternal horrendous punishment for having the temerity to question it.
  
• advised that the only way out is to 'love God'...?

I certainly hope not, because it would prima facie entail a deeply corrupt and demented theology.

 

[Hmm]

And what of, 'Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do'?

And this was referring to those who demanded that He be hung up on the cross. It's hard to think of a more clearcut rejection of Christ than that and if that doesn't warrant an eternal hell, I've no idea what forms of rejection would. Perhaps Team Hell could provide us with a list so we can make sure we're not on the wrong track?

 

[Shrewd Manager]

And this was referring to those who demanded that He be hung up on the cross. It's hard to think of a more clearcut rejection of Christ than that and if that doesn't warrant an eternal hell, I've no idea what forms of rejection would. Perhaps Team Hell could provide us with a list so we can make sure we're not on the wrong track?

Luke 23:34a is one of the top 3 greatest moments ever imho. Among other things, it seals the promises of total victory of the seed of the woman over sin, the world and the devil, and glorifies the sovereignty of grace.

I fear that Team Hell would smother it with ifs buts and wherefores at their earliest opportunity.

 

[Hmm]

I fear that Team Hell would smother it with ifs buts and wherefores at their earliest opportunity.

I fear so too.

 

[Saint Steven]

I was thinking about this scripture below yesterday.
"... the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
He took it away. The sin of the world. Took it away.
cc: @Shrewd Manager @Hmm @Lazarus Short @Andrewn

John 1:29 NIV
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

 

[Saint Steven]

This one popped up on another thread.
"The reason the Son of God appeared was
to destroy the devil’s work." - vs 8

Not to destroy sinners, but to "... destroy the devil’s work." (in our lives)

1 John 3:7-8 NIV
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. The one who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

 

[Hmm]

I was thinking about this scripture below yesterday.
"... the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
He took it away. The sin of the world. Took it away.

Could it be any clearer? Unless of course.'world' doesn't mean 'world' but is instead an interesting metaphorical device which, as Douglas Adams might suggest, seems to "counterpoint the surrealism of the underlying metaphor of the humanity of the author's compassionate soul, which contrives through the medium of the prose structure to sublimate this, transcend that, and come to terms with the fundamental dichotomies of the other" until we are left with a profound and vivid insight into whatever it was the verse is about.

 

[rjs330]

Sounds like they might be a bit short on hard evidence to convict after I've wolfed him down. 'Kid? What kid? Like a burger, officer?'

But seriously, what you have there is a category error. God doesn't answer evil with evil, but with good. It is far better that the perp confronts what he's done in truth, so that he may become a force for good. In that case it would take many many years in prison labouring for Christ before any hope of parole. The torment is in the mind when the conscience is exposed to the fullness of the sin.



And what of, 'Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do'?

Are these the major landmarks of the theology you're presenting, where man is:

• born sinful for no apparent reason
  
• saddled with the crimes of deicide, regicide, high treason etc for reasons he can't comprehend
• facing eternal horrendous punishment for having the temerity to question it.
  
• advised that the only way out is to 'love God'...?

I certainly hope not, because it would prima facie entail a deeply corrupt and demented theology.

Are you making God you? Are you like God? Is God like you?

No God judges evil. Punishment for evil acts is God's justice and holiness in action. His judgments are true and just.

1. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me. - Psalm 51:5 Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 51:5 - American Standard Version

What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;They have all turned aside, they are together become unprofitable; There is none that doeth good, no, not so much as one:Their throat is an open sepulchre; With their tongues they have used deceit: The poison of asps is under their lips:Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:Their feet are swift to shed blood;Destruction and misery are in their ways;And the way of peace have they not known:There is no fear of God before their eyes. - Romans 3:9-18 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3:9-18 - American Standard Version

And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,wherein ye once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the powers of the air, of the spirit that now worketh in the sons of disobedience;among whom we also all once lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest:— - Ephesians 2:1-3 Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 2:1-3 - American Standard Version

2. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would.But if ye are led by the Spirit, ye are not under the law.Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:17-21 Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:17-21 - American Standard Version

Nay, in heart ye work wickedness; Ye weigh out the violence of your hands in the earth.The wicked are estranged from the womb: They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: They are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear,Which hearkeneth not to the voice of charmers, Charming never so wisely.Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: Break out the great teeth of the young lions, O Jehovah.Let them melt away as water that runneth apace: When he aimeth his arrows, let them be as though they were cut off. - Psalm 58:2-7 Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 58:2-7 - American Standard Version


3. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. - Revelation 21:7-8 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:7-8 - American Standard Version

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. - Matthew 25:40-46 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:40-46 - American Standard Version

and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire,rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might, - 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 - American Standard Version

4. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. - John 3:3 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:3 - American Standard Version

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne; and books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.And if any was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire. - Revelation 20:11-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 20:11-15 - American Standard Version

 

[Saint Steven]

Could it be any clearer? ...

I'm left wondering where he took it?
Where did he take the sin of the world?
To the cross, I suppose.
Where it was dealt with once and for all. (Hebrews 9:12)

Saint Steven said: ↑
I was thinking about this scripture below yesterday.
"... the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
He took it away. The sin of the world. Took it away.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

I'm left wondering where he took it?
Where did he take the sin of the world?
To the cross, I suppose.
Where it was dealt with once and for all. (Hebrews 9:12)

Saint Steven said: ↑
I was thinking about this scripture below yesterday.
"... the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
He took it away. The sin of the world. Took it away.

Takes away sin from the world?
Or takes 'the sin of the world' away - what is that sin, pride perhaps?

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5:21)

Crystal clear?

Maybe I'm off base, but isn't this a conflation of two different Hebrew rituals: the Paschal Lamb and the scapegoat?

And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt. (Ex 12:13)

But the goat on which the lot for the scapegoat fell shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make atonement upon it, to send it into the wilderness as the scapegoat. (Lev 16 10)

Ah the mystery of the work of the Cross.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Are you making God you? Are you like God? Is God like you?

And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. (Mt 5:47-48)

And what is Jesus equating to perfection? Is it...boiling your detractors in oil forever and a day? Is it...electrocuting them till their eyeballs smell like fried eggs? Sorry to disappoint, but it's overcoming evil with good.

And the king of Israel said unto Elisha, when he saw them, My father, shall I smite them? shall I smite them? And he answered, Smite them not: wouldest thou smite those whom thou hast taken captive with thy sword and with thy bow? set bread and water before them, that they may eat and drink, and go to their master. (2 Kings 6:21-22)

Where sin abounds, grace super-abounds. Mercy boasteth over judgement.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams (Acts 2:17)

 

[Hmm]

I'm left wondering where he took it?
Where did he take the sin of the world?
To the cross, I suppose.
Where it was dealt with once and for all. (Hebrews 9:12)
Saint Steven said: ↑
I was thinking about this scripture below yesterday.
"... the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"
He took it away. The sin of the world. Took it away.

I think of sin in my amateurish way (and let's face it, we're all amateurs - I'm not sure it makes any sense to say that anyone is a professional expert on God) as an alienation from God. So if Jesus takes away the sin of the world it means He removes any separation from God anywhere in the while world.

Clearly that hasn't happened now because we and the world are all still separated from God. So He must be talkin about a point in the future and most probably something that is outside of space and time altogether.

So it seems to me it's a promise that He has dealt with, once.and for all, with all the sin - all separation from God - of the world, and that it will be actualised at some point in the future. So how then can you have even a single person being held in an eternity of torment? If the fate of the many is to flounder in a lake of fire forever, as advocated by Team Hell would have it, is not being alienated from God then I don't know what would be.

 

[Saint Steven]

Maybe I'm off base, but isn't this a conflation of two different Hebrew rituals: the Paschal Lamb and the scapegoat?

This is where I get hung up on the vicarious atonement doctrine.

My current understanding is that Jesus paid the death penalty due for all of humankind, rather than for individual sins. (plural) He dealt with sin (singular) not sins (plural).

 

[Saint Steven]

I think of sin in my amateurish way (and let's face it, we're all amateurs - I'm not sure it makes any sense to say that anyone is a professional expert on God) as an alienation from God. So if Jesus takes away the sin of the world it means He removes any separation from God anywhere in the while world.

That reminds my of the Temple veil ripped in half from top to bottom. Thus creating access for anyone to the Holy of Holies. (Matthew 27:51)

When I did a search for that reference I found this. Wow.

John 19:23 NIV
When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think of sin in my amateurish way (and let's face it, we're all amateurs - I'm not sure it makes any sense to say that anyone is a professional expert on God) as an alienation from God. So if Jesus takes away the sin of the world it means He removes any separation from God anywhere in the while world.

Clearly that hasn't happened now because we and the world are all still separated from God. So He must be talkin about a point in the future and most probably something that is outside of space and time altogether.

So it seems to me it's a promise that He has dealt with, once.and for all, with all the sin - all separation from God - of the world, and that it will be actualised at some point in the future. So how then can you have even a single person being held in an eternity of torment? If the fate of the many is to flounder in a lake of fire forever, as advocated by Team Hell would have it, is not being alienated from God then I don't know what would be.

Access.
Whosoever will may come.

Ephesians 2:14 NIV
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

 

[Hmm]

John 19:23 NIV
When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.

The order of top to bottom is interesting. It suggests that salvation is from God (top) to man (bottom) and so we should have some humility about how much our doctrines and works actually contribute to this.

 

[Saint Steven]

The order of top to bottom is interesting. It suggests that salvation is from God (top) to man (bottom) and so we should have some humility about how much our doctrines and works actually contribute to this.

It was also significant to those who witnessed the Temple curtain being torn in two. (or the results) Evidence indicated that it was torn from top to bottom. Humanly impossible? Therefore God must have done it. Imagine the shock of the religious rulers. Yet they still would not believe. Didn't fit their doctrine. (sounds familiar)

cc: @Andrewn

 

[rjs330]

And this was referring to those who demanded that He be hung up on the cross. It's hard to think of a more clearcut rejection of Christ than that and if that doesn't warrant an eternal hell, I've no idea what forms of rejection would. Perhaps Team Hell could provide us with a list so we can make sure we're not on the wrong track?

But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. - Revelation 21:8 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:8 - American Standard Version

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions, parties,envyings, drunkenness, revellings, and such like; of which I forewarn you, even as I did forewarn you, that they who practise such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. - Galatians 5:19-21 Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:19-21 - American Standard Version

But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as becometh saints;nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, or jesting, which are not befitting: but rather giving of thanks.For this ye know of a surety, that no fornicator, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. - Ephesians 5:3-5 Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 5:3-5 - American Standard Version

and the field is the world; and the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the tares are the sons of the evil one;and the enemy that sowed them is the devil: and the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are angels.As therefore the tares are gathered up and burned with fire; so shall it be in the end of the world.The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that cause stumbling, and them that do iniquity,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.So shall it be in the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the righteous,and shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. - Matthew 13:38-42,49-50 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 13:38-42, Matthew 13:49-50 - American Standard Version

Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby.For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leadeth unto life, and few are they that find it.Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravening wolves.By their fruits ye shall know them. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but the corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.Therefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. - Matthew 7:13-23 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 7:13-23 - American Standard Version

But when the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the angels with him, then shall he sit on the throne of his glory:and before him shall be gathered all the nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as the shepherd separateth the sheep from the goats;and he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:for I was hungry, and ye gave me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink; I was a stranger, and ye took me in;naked, and ye clothed me; I was sick, and ye visited me; I was in prison, and ye came unto me.Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, and fed thee? or athirst, and gave thee drink?And when saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?And when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it unto one of these my brethren, even these least, ye did it unto me.Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.Then shall they also answer, saying, Lord, when saw we thee hungry, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not unto one of these least, ye did it not unto me.And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life. - Matthew 25:31-46 Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 25:31-46 - American Standard Version