Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Shrewd Manager]

"Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom" Just maybe Father knows best------you recon?

We should have a healthy fear of God. Stygiophobia is a disorder and a mental illness.

 

[Saint Steven]

is that rhetorical?

Seems so.
Both sides of the discussion would say "Yes".
But my post (if I remember correctly) included a scripture. (1 John 4:14)
So, my intention was that the question should be considered in that light.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus was sent for a specific purpose. Did he succeed, or fail?

 

[DamianWarS]

Seems so.
Both sides of the discussion would say "Yes".
But my post (if I remember correctly) included a scripture. (1 John 4:14)
So, my intention was that the question should be considered in that light.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Jesus was sent for a specific purpose. Did he succeed, or fail?

What would be the implications had Christ not succeeded? 1Jn 4:14 says "the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world". How exactly would we measure the failure of this goal?

 

[misput]

Paul said tongues were for a sign to unbelievers and there are many but Jesus said over an over the sign of the prophet Jonah was the sign that would be given, a reference to His own death burial and resurrection.

 

[misput]

What would be the implications had Christ not succeeded? 1Jn 4:14 says "the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world". How exactly would we measure the failure of this goal?

This is how Jesus measured it:
Mt 22:13 "Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[Saint Steven]

What would be the implications had Christ not succeeded? 1Jn 4:14 says "the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world". How exactly would we measure the failure of this goal?

It's a doctrinal issue for those who claim Jesus did not save the whole world, or that he only saved "the Elect". Jesus was SENT to be the Savior of the world. Did he succeed or fail?

 

[Hmm]

What would be the implications had Christ not succeeded?

That Christ was not God.

1Jn 4:14 says "the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world". How exactly would we measure the failure of this goal?

That there was a fraction of the world that wasn't saved.

All (SOME?) pretty simple, no? This is not rocket science.

 

[misput]

We should have a healthy fear of God. Stygiophobia is a disorder and a mental illness.

The only mental illness I see here is unbelief.

 

[misput]

That Christ was not God.



That there was a fraction of the world that wasn't saved.

All (SOME?) pretty simple, no? This is not rocket science.

Many VS few, mighty big fraction that would never be saved (if you can understand what you read). Jolly good entertainment, thanks guys LOL

 

[misput]

Heb 3 & 4 because of unbelief they shall not enter my rest/salvation.

 

[DamianWarS]

It's a doctrinal issue for those who claim Jesus did not save the whole world, or that he only saved "the Elect". Jesus was SENT to be the Savior of the world. Did he succeed or fail?

I would say there are Christological implications if Christ failed and I would think it would question his divinity. 1 John 14:4 speaks of a goal of being the saviour of the world. is that the same thing as saving the world? I would say Christ succeeded because the implications of him not succeeding and maintaining his divinity makes my head hurt (and my heart)

 

[rjs330]

Is it good news to tell folks, 'Well there's an eternity of punishment to look forward to, but if you believe in Jesus, you won't go there?' Surely you can see that's nasty and contrived. How can it possibly be good news to be told that some or many of your departed loved ones are burning in hell? It's actually the worst news ever, on top of the burdens folks have to carry in this world. Jesus' yoke is light, 'Come to me all ye who are heavy laden and I shall give ye rest.'

Yes it is good news to procla to all people that they can lay aside their burdens of a sinful life and receive the glorious salvation that come through Christ. The realization that we are lost people is part of the gospel. Lost and without hope. Just think of all the burdens that out sin brings upon us. We are slaves to it. We cannot get to God on our own and be free of it and the consequences of it without Christ. Our hearts are as black as coal. But Jesus came to provide a way out. If we just believe in him we no longer are condemned by are sin. That IS the good news. But we have to BELIEVE. Its a choice.

Your doctrine provides the pathway to the Lake of Fire. For they will be judged for their sin and cast into the Lake of Fire believing they could reject Christ and his sacrifice and still be saved. Your doctrine sounds nice now. But in the day of judgement it will fail them and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire. The good news is they don't have to face that outcome.

If you are in a train that is hurtling down a track that's about to go off a bridge, it is NOT good news to tell people they will be fine. Not to worry. It's all good. The bridge isn't really out. It might settle their souls for now, but when the train comes to the end of the track and goes off the cliff it will be too late.

But the real good news is there is another track that leads to safety that has been laid for them to take if they just flip the switch and take the other track they will find peace and safety. That's the good news. You are giving them false hope.

It will lead to tragedy in the end.

 

[rjs330]

But we don't rebirth ourselves, folks get born again by submitting to Christ, looking to Christ, 'giving it up' for Jesus, opening the heart and making some confession. Then the HS gives the increase. It's hard for me to see how this state of submission can occur under threat, which just creates undue pressure and takes away the sincerity of confession. Full and voluntary confession is what is needed.

UR supports the idea that we walk the narrow path primarily out of wanting to please God in true love, rather than the terror of unspeakable consequences if we don't. The prospect of shame and waste of God's gifts is of course also a motivator. Unbelievers are supposed to see how we live and recognise the light of love and truth in our lives, a City on a Hill cannot be hid...

A state of submission comes when we see our need for Christ. Remember the parable of the prodigal son. He didn't come until he saw his need. Jesus gave plenty of threat warnings to people. It si better to cut off your hand or pluck out your eye than be cast into hell. Jesus told people that they should be more afraid of God than man because man can kill the body, but God can kill the body and the soul.

Just as the weeds oare gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at nthe end of the age. pThe Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all qcauses of sin and rall law-breakers, sand throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place tthere will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He said there will be the righteous who enter eternal life but the unrighteous into eternal.punishment.

Jesus talked about the man in hell who wanted to leave and warn others.

Jesus himself said all are condemned except those that believe. So, warning people is a loving act. Warning your loved one of the consequences of his actions is a loving act. Telling a man who is about to commit adultery that it's just fine and not to worry about it is unloving. It's loving to warn h of the destruction in his life and the lives of his family is a loving act.

The sincerity of confession comes when we see our need for Jesus. And that need often comes when we see the ultimate consequences of our sinful ways. Just like the man on the cross.

You MUST be born again. You MUST be born again. BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ. WHOSOEVER BELIEVES on him will be saved.

I understand your difficulty in wrapping your head around this. But there is NO scriptural support for the doctrine of all are saved in the end. They are not and Jesus says so. He WARNED people about it.

Once we are saved we walk the path that God intends us to walk through the power of the Holy Spirit and Christ within us the hope of glory. I'm saved, not by my ownight or my own power but by the righteousness of Christ within me. But I had to repent of my sin, believe in him for my salvation. Recognizing my need for him.

I commit sin, but he is faithful.and just to give me my son when I confess it. Just like you say. But I have to believe in him. I can't ask someone who I don't believe in to forgive me and cleanse me from my unrighteousness.

 

[rjs330]

All the resurrection scriptures. What would be the point in Jesus using his keys to raise the dead, just so God can consign them to eternal hell? That would be infinitely unjust and absurdly evil

None of the resurrection scriptures say all will be saved. Not one of them. Why do you continue to ignore this?

But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning them that fall asleep; that ye sorrow not, even as the rest, who have no hope.For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him.For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.Wherefore comfort one another with these words. - 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Bible Gateway passage: 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 - American Standard Version

Note that Paul says those IN Jesus are resurrected. The dead IN CHRIST are resurrected. If we believe that Jesus died and rose again. Those are the ones that go to be with him.

Note he says "as the rest who have no hope." Without Christ there is no hope. But fearful judgement.

 

[rjs330]

.
Yes, that's surely better than being driven by fear of an eternal hell. What would God prefer we do?

We don't really love God until we know him. We can't love God until we put our hope and trust in Christ.

Remember Jesus said we should gear the one who can cast out body and soul into hell.

 

[rjs330]

We should have a healthy fear of God. Stygiophobia is a disorder and a mental illness.

The bible doesn't tell us to have an unhealthy fear of God. Don't be silly.

 

[rjs330]

It's a doctrinal issue for those who claim Jesus did not save the whole world, or that he only saved "the Elect". Jesus was SENT to be the Savior of the world. Did he succeed or fail?

Wrong question.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. - John 3:14-21 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:14-21 - American Standard Version

Jesus came to provide the WAY of salvation. Belief is what is required of us. It is NOT automatic. Jesus succeeded in his mission to provide the way for those that believe.

 

[rjs330]

I would say there are Christological implications if Christ failed and I would think it would question his divinity. 1 John 14:4 speaks of a goal of being the saviour of the world. is that the same thing as saving the world? I would say Christ succeeded because the implications of him not succeeding and maintaining his divinity makes my head hurt.

Of course he succeeded. For everyone can receive salvation through him. There was never a plan that all WOULD receive salvation in him. The plan was always to save those that believed on him. And in that Christ succeeded in spades.

 

[DamianWarS]

Of course he succeeded. For everyone can receive salvation through him. There was never a plan that all WOULD receive salvation in him. The plan was always to save those that believed on him. And in that Christ succeeded in spades.

Let's hope Christ's offer of salvation is better thought out than Noah's.

 

[Saint Steven]

I would say there are Christological implications if Christ failed and I would think it would question his divinity. 1 John 14:4 speaks of a goal of being the saviour of the world. is that the same thing as saving the world? I would say Christ succeeded because the implications of him not succeeding and maintaining his divinity makes my head hurt.

Right. He succeeded. Which makes Him the Savior of the world.

Just to be clear, I wasn't questioning whether he succeeded. I believe he did.
However there are many on the forum that speak as if he didn't.