Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[Shrewd Manager]

I agree. I wonder what the church would be like now if it had the courage to take the lead from modern scholarship and the great figures from the past, such as the "father of fathers" Gregory.of Nyssa, and finally dispose of the idea of God as Torturer as the ultimate blasphemy that it is. But politics and concern over jobs still carry the day it seems.

Apparently George MacDonald complained about Protestantism along the lines, 'They got rid of the wrong one', referring to purgatory. Clearly UR goes a lot further than Catholic purgatory, but at least it's something to work with. I just imagine God facepalming after raising several good prophets against the scandal of indulgences, when the Reformers in their desire to signal their zeal doubled-down on the ECT error. Of course God foreknew, but nonetheless sends the redeemer in hope...

 

[Hmm]

Apparently George MacDonald complained about Protestantism along the lines, 'They got rid of the wrong one', referring to purgatory. Clearly UR goes a lot further than Catholic purgatory, but at least it's something to work with.

Interesting analogy. AFAIK Catholic purgatory is a place of purification which is required to prepare us for the Lord. But it's not a test. Everyone in purgatory is guaranteed to be heaven bound when they leave. The Catholic church retains the concept of an eternal hell but (again AFAIK) says that we should pray that it is empty.

As you say, this has similarities with universalism. In fact, get rid of the hell and it is universalism!

I'm not surprised though. The Catholic church and the Orthodox church embody two thousand years of wisdom that silly Protestant sects don't have - and I presume I'm allowed to say this because I'm Protestant, although increasingly a Reluctant rather than, hopefully, a Silly Protestant.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Interesting analogy. AFAIK Catholic purgatory is a place of purification which is required to prepare us for the Lord. But it's not a test. Everyone in purgatory is guaranteed to be heaven bound when they leave. The Catholic church retains the concept of an eternal hell but (again AFAIK) says that we should pray that it is empty.

As you say, this has similarities with universalism. In fact, get rid of the hell and it is universalism!

The problem with purgatory is that it's for believers only, ie if you died without confession it was not an option. I understand the reasoning was simply that nobody died sinless, and since heaven required purity, everyone was hell-bound unless some further purification was undertaken. So the reasoning is sound imho, apart from the bit that it's only a 'finishing school for believers'. I say 'Purgatory for all, not just for Catholics' lol.

But yes, the Reformers just dispensed with that logic altogether and seem to have moved the battleground to OSAS-type debates ie did you do enough down here to make the grade? Which kind of cheapens heaven to a congregation of just our most zealous earthly selves fitted out with incorruptible new bodies. Let's have a drink at the bar when we get there.

 

[Saint Steven]

But yes, the Reformers just dispensed with that logic altogether...

Probably since it was tied to indulgences.

 

[Saint Steven]

I was thinking this week about SALVATION presented as a consumer product. The sales pitch, the exclusive offer. Luxury and comfort. Seems to align with western thought about everything.

I should probably do a parody on some offer statements. - lol

 

[Hmm]

The problem with purgatory is that it's for believers only, ie if you died without confession it was not an option. I understand the reasoning was simply that nobody died sinless, and since heaven required purity, everyone was hell-bound unless some further purification was undertaken. So the reasoning is sound imho, apart from the bit that it's only a 'finishing school for believers'. I say 'Purgatory for all, not just for Catholics' lol.

Okay. I believe Catholics also have the idea of "invincible ignorance", so that if you respond to God as you understand Him, e.g. respond to kindness and become kind, that is also accepted. "Purgatory for all!" would make a great slogan for the Church of England protests that I feel are just one luke-warm or even Luke-warm cup of tea and failed biscuit.away.

But yes, the Reformers just dispensed with that logic altogether and seem to have moved the battleground to OSAS-type debates ie did you do enough down here to make the grade? Which kind of cheapens heaven to a congregation of just our most zealous earthly selves fitted out with incorruptible new bodies.

Great explanation of the origins of the OSAS philosophy, which is something I'd never understood before.

Let's have a drink at the bar when we get there.

Thanks. I'll have a half of nectar.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Probably since it was tied to indulgences.

Not sure what Luther had to say specifically on the subject. It would be an interesting study, the extent to which the canning of purgatory was considered theologically or whether it just 'went out with indulgences'. You'd have to look at Calvin, John Knox, Tyndale, who else might be a big early influencer?

This site suggests it was largely due to the removal of the Apocrypha from the Protestant Canon:

• 1559 French Confession of Faith & 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith – Protestants officially said no to the poorly translated Vulgate and the Apocrypha as being Scripture (and thus to its unique doctrines such as penance and purgatory)
• 1545-1563 Council of Trent – The Catholics responded by keeping the Apocrypha as Scripture (and its unique doctrines)

What is the Apocrypha? What is Penance? What is Purgatory?

I might need to do some exploration on this issue...

 

[Shrewd Manager]

Okay. I believe Catholics also have the idea of "invincible ignorance", so that if you respond to God as you understand Him, e.g. respond to kindness and become kind, that is also accepted. "Purgatory for all!" would make a great slogan for the Church of England protests that I feel are just one luke-warm or even Luke-warm cup of tea and failed biscuit.away.

That's interesting, perhaps Catholic doctrine can support UR if pieced together properly. Invincible ignorance plus purgatory takes care of most, maybe all...?

Great explanation of the origins of the OSAS philosophy, which is something I'd never understood before.

Look, don't quote me on that, I'm just doing ex post facto rationalisation...which relies on assumptions not necessarily consonant with the idiosyncracies of church tradition!

Thanks. I'll have a half of nectar.

Lol! Top shelf.

 

[Saint Steven]

I was thinking this week about SALVATION presented as a consumer product. The sales pitch, the exclusive offer. Luxury and comfort. Seems to align with western thought about everything.

I should probably do a parody on some offer statements. - lol

Let's give this a shot. Others welcome to add comments. (pitch)

Plan ahead. Don't miss out. Never before offered in your area.
Exclusive gated community accommodations. Unmatched safety and luxury.
Hurry - Limited time offer. Expires when you do. (@martymonster )
Don't get left behind. Limited availability. Exclusive offer. Act now.
Not available where prohibited by law. Restrictions may apply.

 

[Andrewn]

"Purgatory for all!" would make a great slogan for the Church of England protests that I feel are just one luke-warm or even Luke-warm cup of tea and failed biscuit.away.

"The 1979 Book of Common Prayer of the Episcopal Church (United States) includes prayers for the dead. The prayers during the Sunday Eucharistic Liturgy include intercessions for the repose of the faithful departed. Furthermore, most of the prayers in the burial rite are for the deceased, including the opening collect:

"O God, whose mercies cannot be numbered: Accept our prayers on behalf of thy servant N., and grant him an entrance into the land of light and joy, in the fellowship of thy saints; through Jesus Christ thy Son our Lord, who liveth and reigneth with thee and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen.[38]

"According to the Catechism in the 1979 Book of Common Prayer, "We pray for (the dead), because we still hold them in our love, and because we trust that in God's presence those who have chosen to serve him will grow in his love, until they see him as he is."[39]"

Prayer for the dead - Wikipedia

 

[Andrewn]

Not sure what Luther had to say specifically on the subject. It would be an interesting study, the extent to which the canning of purgatory was considered theologically or whether it just 'went out with indulgences'. You'd have to look at Calvin, John Knox, Tyndale, who else might be a big early influencer?

I believe that Protestants made many theological errors. But removing the concept of a purgatory for most Christians was not a mistake. A purgatory for most Christians was only a scheme to make money and keep believers in fear and thus in the Catholic Church. It was quite right for the Reformers to teach that true believers go directly to Paradise.

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven say, “Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

 

[Andrewn]

That's interesting, perhaps Catholic doctrine can support UR if pieced together properly. Invincible ignorance plus purgatory takes care of most, maybe all...?

I don't think so. It implies the possibility of post-mortem progression, but not necessarily for 100% of people.

 

[Saint Steven]

... Luke-warm cup of tea and failed biscuit.away. ...

Wow.
That is such a curious idiom.
I know that a biscuit, that comes with tea, is what we would call a cookie. What would a "failed" biscuit be? - lol

 

[misput]

Really? Care to give an example that supports that assertion? I'd be interested in the feedback if you can, but not if you can't.

In the above example the scripture is used concerning the tree of life with obviously no understanding of what it means. Ditto when the tree of knowledge, satan, etc. etc. are referenced. Please do not expect me to spoon feed this information because it only comes from above. The point I am trying to make is we should not belittle others (team hell) when our own understanding is so limited.

 

[Hmm]

Wow.
That is such a curious idiom.
I know that a biscuit, that comes with tea, is what we would call a cookie. What would a "failed" biscuit be? - lol

It's not really an idiom, it's just something random that, as you say, doesn't actually make sense! Perhaps I should have said "disappointing" biscuit instead.

 

[Hmm]

Please do not expect me to spoon feed this information because it only comes from above

Let me assure you, I have absolutely no desire to be spoonfed by you! I merely asked you for an example to back up your accusation against "the guys" (whoever they are) which I note you didn't do.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's not really an idiom, it's just something random that, as you say, doesn't actually make sense! Perhaps I should have said "disappointing" biscuit instead.

Yes, I would be disappointed if the host/hostess gave me the plain biscuits when there were yummy filled biscuits available.

In the same way I want a Spirit-filled church rather than the plain kind. (dry, tasteless and unsatisfying)

 

[misput]

Let me assure you, I have absolutely no desire to be spoonfed by you! I merely asked you for an example to back up your accusation against "the guys" (whoever they are) which I note you didn't do.

It seems I let you down. I challenge you to provide some information about the tree of life that would convince me I have drawn the wrong conclusion.

 

[misput]

Yes, I would be disappointed if the host/hostess gave me the plain biscuits when there were yummy filled biscuits available.

In the same way I want a Spirit-filled church rather than the plain kind. (dry, tasteless and unsatisfying)

Then you would be a risky biscuit LOL

 

[Hmm]

In the same way I want a Spirit-filled church rather than the plain kind. (dry, tasteless and unsatisfying)

I know what you mean but, for myself, I'm too cynical to enjoy a church that labels itself as Spirit-filled. I did attend to a church like that for a while and they always had a time when the pastor invited the Holy Spirit into the congregation (which I thought was odd anyway) and then it was always the same guy who started (apparently) speaking in tongues in a very frenzied way. The pastor would then ask someone to interpret it and this was always done by a select view. After a few weeks of this, I began to recognise certain words and phrases that the speaking in tongues guy said but the interpretation was always completely different, often related to the big news stories of the day. I found it all phony and after a while left for the safe recesses of the Church of England where the Holy Spirit wouldn't dare behave like that /s. But that often feels like a nice social club with very little interaction and service with the wider local community so I often find it quite boring tbh.