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Kylie's Pool Challenge

Astrid

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Sure you did. Just like other atheists have done for the umpteenth time on a Christian forum. If you are interested in learning about Christianity, you are in the right place. But if you are just another atheist troll, we are all really tired of it.

Put yourself in our shoes a moment. Do we sign up on atheist forums and rant about how atheists are all going to Hell? Even if you insult us on our own turf in a subtle manner, like your billiard example, it is still very rude.

You know, if you find any challenge to your chosen
beliefs so odious that it brings forth name calling,
assuming of only the most base and ignoble motives
of people you dont know or understand-then why do YOU
frequent a forum where dissent is invited, and by
some few at least, appreciated?

There are sheltered forums for those whose spiritual
journey is best fostered by preaching to the choir.
 
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Torah Keeper

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Yes. But, I ignore them since they represent a tiny proportion of Christians.
It seemed to me that @Kylie's question was not designed to learn more about Christianity, but to try to understand what leads Christians to believe what they believe. This seems a reasonable motive. Would you agree?

No. I don't sign up on atheist forums. And no I don't agree with your misunderstanding of Kylie's motive. She made a subtle attempt to get Christians to admit they are wrong about the authenticity of the Bible. Her premise was flawed from the start. It is based on the assumption that the documentation was written by a person who had no knowledge of billiards and no knowledge of the events of the game at hand. But the authors of the Bible were prophets. God spoke to them and they wrote down God's words.

Kylie should change her "challenge" to a guy shooting a perfect game of pool(God), when suddenly a naughty child climbs on the table and messes up the balls. God, being merciful and patient, does not immediately toss the kid off the table and start a new game. Instead, he wants us to learn a lesson. So he turns to his followers, who are recording His shots and words, and tells them to teach people about why the balls are all messed up, and that they shouldn't do what the naughty child did.

Then the followers of God distribute the documentation of the game of billiards.

Now, the question is, if you read the documentation, and saw the balls in an impossibly awkward and wrong position, would you say to God sarcastically, "Nice break!" or would you ask, "Who messed up the balls? It is impossible for the balls to have moved into a position like that from normal play."

I have another challenge. Imagine you are walking through the forest, when suddenly you come across a patch of berry bushes.
Above the berry bush is a sign that reads "DANGER! DO NOT EAT! POISON! (This message is a warning from God. Please heed it!)

Standing next to God's sign is a guy eating berries. You look at the sign, look at the guy, and out of the goodness of your heart, you say to the guy "Dude! Those berries iz poison man! Read the sign!" The guy laughs and says "Ha! I laugh at your ignorance! I am a scientist! I have 1,000 peer-reviewed books proving that these berries are not at all poisonous! In fact, they are quite healthy and delicious! Here, try some!"

Do you:

A: Eat some berries.
B: Trust the sign.
 
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Astrid

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No. I don't sign up on atheist forums. And no I don't agree with your misunderstanding of Kylie's motive. She made a subtle attempt to get Christians to admit they are wrong about the authenticity of the Bible. Her premise was flawed from the start. It is based on the assumption that the documentation was written by a person who had no knowledge of billiards and no knowledge of the events of the game at hand. But the authors of the Bible were prophets. God spoke to them and they wrote down God's words.

Kylie should change her "challenge" to a guy shooting a perfect game of pool(God), when suddenly a naughty child climbs on the table and messes up the balls. God, being merciful and patient, does not immediately toss the kid off the table and start a new game. Instead, he wants us to learn a lesson. So he turns to his followers, who are recording His shots and words, and tells them to teach people about why the balls are all messed up, and that they shouldn't do what the naughty child did.

Then the followers of God distribute the documentation of the game of billiards.

Now, the question is, if you read the documentation, and saw the balls in an impossibly awkward and wrong position, would you say to God sarcastically, "Nice break!" or would you ask, "Who messed up the balls? It is impossible for the balls to have moved into a position like that from normal play."

I have another challenge. Imagine you are walking through the forest, when suddenly you come across a patch of berry bushes.
Above the berry bush is a sign that reads "DANGER! DO NOT EAT! POISON! (This message is a warning from God. Please heed it!)

Standing next to God's sign is a guy eating berries. You look at the sign, look at the guy, and out of the goodness of your heart, you say to the guy "Dude! Those berries iz poison man! Read the sign!" The guy laughs and says "Ha! I laugh at your ignorance! I am a scientist! I have 1,000 peer-reviewed books proving that these berries are not at all poisonous! In fact, they are quite healthy and delicious! Here, try some!"

Do you:

A: Eat some berries.
B: Trust the sign.

.....written by a person with no knowledge..."

Well. Interesting thing to call an assumption.
We note of course the assumption that thecwriters got
it from God.

I knew next to nothing about Christianity.
But in the US, i read the bible cover to cover
(sans begets). Went to church. Talked to
Christians.
I assumed there could be something to it.

I knew about the role of dragons in our history.
Its all good fun, dragon boat races are great,
but taking it literally?

So i read genesis that way, as stories.
Then I find out most people have it that its not just
stories!
God told people about it? And its all true?

What do YOU mean by " authentic"?

I dont doubt Noahs ark is authentically an old folk tale.

Authentic as that it really really happened?

If so-

What to read, an old claimed- to- be from God story or the story written
right into the very earth that God himself presumably wrote?
 
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AV1611VET

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I knew next to nothing about Christianity.
But in the US, i read the bible cover to cover (sans begets). Went to church. Talked to Christians.
Did you read the Bhagavad Gita cover-to-cover? the Book of Mormon? the New World Testament?

If not, what made you select Christianity?
 
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Astrid

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It's probably based on a misapplication or misunderstanding of modal logic.

I guess. I figure people just hear things , figure they sound
deep, and repeat them, totally unprepared to explain or defend.

Polystrate fossils that disprove evolution, say.
Or kalam cosmo to prove god.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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If justice, love, and morality are nothing but abstractions from our minds that we generally all agree there really are, it it not right that all people are made really with equal rights, and there is no such thing as fair treatment, and trying to give fair treatment is only arbitrary. There would be those being real if they were more than abstractions from our minds that we generally agree are there, which is not really explained as it should be if it is so. Why should you think it so important? Why would you not sneak around those generally agreed on abstractions of our minds when it might be to your advantage when you see that and see that you can get away with it? It would be arbitrarily restricting you if you did not. Unless there is more to it than abstractions of our minds generally agreed on.
I think I got the gist of that - I think you're asking why people who think justice, love, and morality are mental abstractions still generally take them seriously. The reason is that, in this context, abstractions are ideas that generalise and/or idealise aspects of everyday experience, and everyday experience is important.

But it's important to distinguish between the abstraction and what it's an abstraction of.

Justice is an elaboration of the sense of fairness that is common to many social vertebrates and is an evolutionary product of social interaction. Even pre-linguistic babies show a clear preference for beneficial, helpful agents as opposed to obstructive, unhelpful agents. This basic intuition is modulated and elaborated by socialisation and enculturation, so that what is perceived as fair or just is contingent and contextual - i.e. justice is different in different cultures.

Love is an emotion that helps bind people together, mediated by specific neurotransmitters (although sometimes it refers to altruistic or sympathetic behaviour without the associated emotion).

Morality is the sum of these value-laden and enculturated intuitions and emotions - what feels right or wrong, what feels just or unjust, etc. Each individual has their own personal interpretation, but since most grow up in a particular culture they will typically absorb the mores of that culture. There are fundamental commonalities, possibly universalities, but they are contextual and contingent on socialisation, culture, and individual experience - e.g. killing is wrong, except [in specific circumstances]. Common cultural morality is often codified into rules of acceptable behaviour and/or a legal framework.

Studies show that most people will indeed "sneak around those generally agreed on abstractions of our minds when it might be to their advantage when they see that and see that they can get away with it", but only in very minor ways, and typically not as much as they potentially could. They then justify that to themselves. For example, people will 'borrow' the odd pencil, pen, notepad, and/or eraser, from the stationery cupboard at work, to use at home - they could probably get away with more, but usually don't - that would seem positively dishonest. Many honest drivers will exceed the speed limit when they feel it's justifiable (e.g. empty road, it seems safe, etc.)

In general, people are prepared to go beyond what their conscience (internalised morality) tells them is right, but only as far as they feel they can justify.

Necessary existence is not about something exists because it does exist. That is the case in the roundabout evidence we have observing anything. There is another existence that we can know there would be in the roundabout way of the logic of existence. What we see are contingent things that were caused to be. There would be necessary existence, that is not necessary because it exists, but it must exist, because existence is necessary. If existence is not necessary, but all of it, like all we observe, is contingent on being caused, logically nothing would exist. Contingent things cannot bring themselves into being. Existence is necessary and not all that exists is necessary, that necessary existence always existed, and never had any start, has no limitation which would be an arbitrary imposition, being necessary would then be unlimited, and has no end. As there are contingent things, those are ultimately caused by neccessary existence, which then has unlimited capacity to cause things further to be. It is not that we can understand how there is existence that is necessary, we can't know how that is explained but it isn't relevant for the logic.
OK, that's almost completely opaque or incoherent, but what I think you're missing is a fundamental of physics - everything that we see come into existence is just a rearrangement of what already existed.

We have no reason to suppose that the fundamental 'stuff', of which everything is made and remade, ever came into existence itself. As far as we know it has always been around - As I said previously, the idea that it could come from nothing is incoherent. IOW, it has necessary existence because it exists and can't not exist. Of course there are all kinds of metaphysical complications to do with time - whether it began, what that means, the arrow of time, and so-on, but I'm ignoring those.

Now, if you want to label the stuff that existed prior to the earliest time we can account for as 'God', you're welcome - no doubt Spinoza and Einstein would empathise. But that's very different from assertions of some vaguely anthropomorphic intentional agent with a grand plan.

Personhood can be an aspect of necessary existence, and then it does not need any millions of years, or any amount of time, to develop or evolve. And why would personhood evolve, in the material existence?
What is your justification for the assertion that 'personhood can be an aspect of necessary existence'? ISTM that personhood has evolved because it is a selective advantage in a social group of intelligent creatures to have a unified concept of self that can provide a characteristic and consistent social interface for others. There's more to it than that, but it's a start. The only personhood we have evidence for is associated with complex and sophisticated biological brains in complex and sophisticated bodies that are the result of 3.5 billion years of evolution of life.

In the same way that there are more things beyond any category of physical things there can and I say would be more than the category of physical things, and necessarily existence is beyond the category of all physical things, and beyond all the contingent things together. Necessary existence, not having limits, is everywhere, and if there is personhood with it, such as knowledge, and awareness, that is everywhere as well.
I'm afraid that's a barely coherent and unjustified assertion.
 
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Astrid

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I think I got the gist of that - I think you're asking why people who think justice, love, and morality are mental abstractions still generally take them seriously. The reason is that, in this context, abstractions are ideas that generalise and/or idealise aspects of everyday experience, and everyday experience is important.

But it's important to distinguish between the abstraction and what it's an abstraction of.

Justice is an elaboration of the sense of fairness that is common to many social vertebrates and is an evolutionary product of social interaction. Even pre-linguistic babies show a clear preference for beneficial, helpful agents as opposed to obstructive, unhelpful agents. This basic intuition is modulated and elaborated by socialisation and enculturation, so that what is perceived as fair or just is contingent and contextual - i.e. justice is different in different cultures.

Love is an emotion that helps bind people together, mediated by specific neurotransmitters (although sometimes it refers to altruistic or sympathetic behaviour without the associated emotion).

Morality is the sum of these value-laden and enculturated intuitions and emotions - what feels right or wrong, what feels just or unjust, etc. Each individual has their own personal interpretation, but since most grow up in a particular culture they will typically absorb the mores of that culture. There are fundamental commonalities, possibly universalities, but they are contextual and contingent on socialisation, culture, and individual experience - e.g. killing is wrong, except [in specific circumstances]. Common cultural morality is often codified into rules of acceptable behaviour and/or a legal framework.

Studies show that most people will indeed "sneak around those generally agreed on abstractions of our minds when it might be to their advantage when they see that and see that they can get away with it", but only in very minor ways, and typically not as much as they potentially could. They then justify that to themselves. For example, people will 'borrow' the odd pencil, pen, notepad, and/or eraser, from the stationery cupboard at work, to use at home - they could probably get away with more, but usually don't - that would seem positively dishonest. Many honest drivers will exceed the speed limit when they feel it's justifiable (e.g. empty road, it seems safe, etc.)

In general, people are prepared to go beyond what their conscience (internalised morality) tells them is right, but only as far as they feel they can justify.

OK, that's almost completely opaque or incoherent, but what I think you're missing is a fundamental of physics - everything that we see come into existence is just a rearrangement of what already existed.

We have no reason to suppose that the fundamental 'stuff', of which everything is made and remade, ever came into existence itself. As far as we know it has always been around - As I said previously, the idea that it could come from nothing is incoherent. IOW, it has necessary existence because it exists and can't not exist. Of course there are all kinds of metaphysical complications to do with time - whether it began, what that means, the arrow of time, and so-on, but I'm ignoring those.

Now, if you want to label the stuff that existed prior to the earliest time we can account for as 'God', you're welcome - no doubt Spinoza and Einstein would empathise. But that's very different from assertions of some vaguely anthropomorphic intentional agent with a grand plan.

What is your justification for the assertion that 'personhood can be an aspect of necessary existence'? ISTM that personhood has evolved because it is a selective advantage in a social group of intelligent creatures to have a unified concept of self that can provide a characteristic and consistent social interface for others. There's more to it than that, but it's a start. The only personhood we have evidence for is associated with complex and sophisticated biological brains in complex and sophisticated bodies that are the result of 3.5 billion years of evolution of life.

I'm afraid that's a barely coherent and unjustified assertion.
Its so incoherent, I cant make myself read it.

Too bad, there may be good thoughts in there.
Maybe if he took more time and care.
 
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Kylie

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One reason: Because the Bible has hundreds of fulfilled prophecies.

There are other reasons but that's a good starting point for credibility.

No it's not. The prophecies are either vague, or there is no evidence outside the Bible that they were fulfilled, or they might have been written AFTER the event that fulfilled them, or they could have been something that was likely going to happen anyway, or the whole prophecy and its fulfillment was just made up.

Of course, if you can provide a prophecy from the Bible and prove that it doesn't fall into one of those categories, go right ahead.
 
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Mountainmike

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If you mean the documentation says “ evolution is as close to a fact as you can get without proof”, when the same person admits he has “no idea whatsoever how life started , but it must have been like this….”( he didn’t notice the self contradiction) then , yes, the documentation is bunk.

Sadly the “ reputation “ of the author, an army of scientists who subscribe to the same nonsense ( from faith in the assumption , rather than evidence) and the confirmation bias of his audience made Dawkins ( and Darwin) best sellers.

Is that where you were driving?
Is that your analogy?

From AV's Pool Challenge thread...


Now, I looked at this and thought that the situation wasn't taking into account everything it should have. So I presented an alternative situation...

Let's say someone broke, and then a second person wrote down a statement claiming that he had not broken, but had simply placed the balls in this position. Later, a third person comes in, reads the documentation and concludes that the documentation MUST be right, and anyone who says the balls reached this position as a result of regular play is terribly wrong. The third person refuses to consider any alternative, and claims, "The documentation says it, that settles it!"

Is the third person right?
 
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AV1611VET

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No it's not. The prophecies are either vague, or there is no evidence outside the Bible that they were fulfilled, or they might have been written AFTER the event that fulfilled them, or they could have been something that was likely going to happen anyway, or the whole prophecy and its fulfillment was just made up.

Of course, if you can provide a prophecy from the Bible and prove that it doesn't fall into one of those categories, go right ahead.
1 Kings 13:2 And he cried against the altar in the word of the LORD, and said, O altar, altar, thus saith the LORD; Behold, a child shall be born unto the house of David, Josiah by name; and upon thee shall he offer the priests of the high places that burn incense upon thee, and men's bones shall be burnt upon thee.

From Adam Clarke's Commentary:

This is one of the most remarkable and most singular prophecies in the Old Testament. It here most circumstantially foretells a fact which took place three hundred and forty years after the prediction; a fact which was attested by the two nations. The Jews, in whose behalf this prophecy was delivered, would guard it most sacredly; and it was the interest of the Israelites, against whom it was levelled, to impugn its authenticity and expose its falsehood, had this been possible. This prediction not only showed the knowledge of God, but his power. He gave, as it were, this warning to idolatry, that it might be on its guard, and defend itself against this Josiah whenever a person of that name should be found sitting on the throne of David; and no doubt it was on the alert, and took all prudent measures for its own defence; but all in vain, for Josiah, in the eighteenth year of his reign, literally accomplished this prophecy, as we may read, 2 Kings 23:15-20.
 
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Astrid

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If you mean the documentation says “ evolution is as close to a fact as you can get without proof”, when the same person admits he has “no idea whatsoever how life started , but it must have been like this….”( he didn’t notice the self contradiction) then , yes, the documentation is bunk.

Sadly the “ reputation “ of the author, an army of scientists who subscribe to the same nonsense ( from faith in the assumption , rather than evidence) and the confirmation bias of his audience made Dawkins ( and Darwin) best sellers.

Is that where you were driving?
Is that your analogy?
An odd incapacity, cannot grasp that TOE is not dependent on
origin of life.
Almost as if some hard brittle construct of reality would be
shattered by the touch of that comprehension?

We wonder if you think that 100,000,000 years from now
no new "kinds" will have evolved, the deep history of life
changing stops here.
 
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AV1611VET

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An odd incapacity, cannot grasp that TOE is not dependent on origin of life.
That means evolutionists can research mankind coming from apes and reporting such to be a viable piece of earth's history.

If that's what they want to do, then let them.

But when they expect Christians to believe that, and said Christians don't, they don't need to be getting all hissy-fit about it.
 
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Mountainmike

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You do love straw men. Critical thinking not a strong suit?

None can claim to know how the balls came to be where they are, without knowing how they started out. Obvs. So the question is what was the “break” in reality.
The balls in the analogy are still moving, not stopped, so the analogy is false.

And since on another thread atheists are now claiming that life isn’t really a thing at all, but some sort of blurred continuum from hydrogen; then the lack of a clue of how any of “ it” started becomes all the more important, in saying they don’t have a clue. ( Dawkins verdict, argue with him)

I didn’t really get an answer when I asked whether they thought they were dead or instead they thought their computers were live? one of those must be true - as a deduction from the lunatic conjecture.

If my computer evolved , self replicated and self repaired it would save me a fortune!

But then I can imagine an evolutionary zealot from a millennia hence, looking at a stream of computer relics in the ground, saying heh! These are advancing! So They MUST have evolved from each other. Right!. There’s one born every minute…

The reality? The jury is out. Dawkins books and Darwin were way premature in claiming they had a handle on it all. Their claims way exceeds their evidence.



An odd incapacity, cannot grasp that TOE is not dependent on
origin of life.
Almost as if some hard brittle construct of reality would be
shattered by the touch of that comprehension?

We wonder if you think that 100,000,000 years from now
no new "kinds" will have evolved, the deep history of life
changing stops here.
An odd incapacity, cannot grasp that TOE is not dependent on
origin of life.
Almost as if some hard brittle construct of reality would be
shattered by the touch of that comprehension?

We wonder if you think that 100,000,000 years from now
no new "kinds" will have evolved, the deep history of life
changing stops here.
 
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Astrid

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You do love straw men. Critical thinking not a strong suit?

None can claim to know how the balls came to be where they are, without knowing how they started out. Obvs. So the question is what was the “break” in reality.
The balls in the analogy are still moving, not stopped, so the analogy is false.

And since on another thread atheists are now claiming that life isn’t really a thing at all, but some sort of blurred continuum from hydrogen; then the lack of a clue of how any of “ it” started becomes all the more important, in saying they don’t have a clue. ( Dawkins verdict, argue with him)

I didn’t really get an answer when I asked whether they thought they were dead or instead they thought their computers were live? one of those must be true - as a deduction from the lunatic conjecture.

If my computer evolved , self replicated and self repaired it would save me a fortune!

But then I can imagine an evolutionary zealot from a millennia hence, looking at a stream of computer relics in the ground, saying heh! These are advancing! So They MUST have evolved from each other. Right!. There’s one born every minute…

The reality? The jury is out. Dawkins books and Darwin were way premature in claiming they had a handle on it all. Their claims way exceeds their evidence.


Nobody claims that life is not a " thing". You just made that up.

We did say there is no known bright line distinction between
living and non living.
If you know, plz advise.

You could, with a little forthright courage, just say if you
think all life forms would still be the same a hundred million
years from now.
 
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AV1611VET

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You could, with a little forthright courage, just say if you think all life forms would still be the same a hundred million years from now.
The universe won't even be the same a hundred million years from now.

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

And when we've been there ten thousand years,
Bright shining as the sun,
We've no less days to sing God's praise,
Than when we first begun.
 
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Mountainmike

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We did say there is no known bright line distinction between
living and non living.
If you know, plz advise.

The accepted definition is self replicating and self evolving.
It either can or it can’t. So it is a bright line.

Those who want to disavow it , do so because they know it creates a problem they cannot solve called “irreducible complexity”
- It’s cannot be simple to self replicate and evolve.
- It must be simple to happen as an event caused by the chance encounter of nonliving chemicals
So it’s easier to pretend the line is blurred, since they cannot solve the paradox.
 
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Astrid

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The accepted definition is self replicating and self evolving.
It either can or it can’t. So it is a bright line.

Those who want to disavow it , do so because they know it creates a problem they cannot solve called “irreducible complexity”
- It’s cannot be simple to self replicate and evolve.
- It must be simple to happen as an event caused by the chance encounter of nonliving chemicals
So it’s easier to pretend the line is blurred, since they cannot solve the paradox.

Quoting a part of one definition ( self evolving?? Source? Did you make that up)
is hardly, you know, definitive. In the event, its not really a definition
but a partial description.
There are self replicating molecules that have been created in a lab.

" those who want to disavow it" ( your imaginary criteria)
would only be like the world scientific community, where its
known that its impossible at this time to fully define life.

We' ve noticed that creationists do claim to know more than any
scientist on earth, and many are also tele- psychiatrists and know all
about their motives in life too!

Fortunately for us creationists are very rare here. Maybe not so
fortunate for the west.

There wont be any angels, with or without a flaming sword that
turns this way and that, to guard the gates to your trailervparks.
 
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