Without goading, it's now 2022. What timetables proved incorrect?

[Hammster]

Oh I agree! And there are many references to "Babylon" falling, etc. But it's less about Rome specifically and more about the very idea of God's enemies - like Gog / Magog in Ezekiel - being judged finally and for all time. In other words, yes, John is saying he shares their sufferings (tribulations) in chapter 1 and the time is near. It's about Rome persecuting the church. But in a way it is so symbolically written it's not just Rome he's focussing on. It's a bit different to say, Paul writing specifically to the Corinthians about their problems and we are all meant to learn from that. It's more like John is writing to the 7 churches which in a way represent warnings and encouragements to ALL churches - John writing about Roman persecution but so symbolically that it could be ALL persecuted churches in all generations. See the difference? This is pretty much the stance of Phd in history and Theologian Dr Paul Barnett. He conducted tours of the Middle East and bible lands for many years, and taught history at Macquarie University as well as his time in ministry. He was a Sydney Anglican Bishop when he retired. He draws on the Roman imagery throughout Revelation - but also points out how stylistic and symbolic the writing is so that it also applies to all Christians suffering. Or tempted by success and wealth! It's all in there - if only people would stop trying to read it as a time-table!

Do you see how much you have to read into that, though? The seven churches, for example. There’s nothing in the text that would lead someone to think it’s more than just an extended Olivet Discourse. You have to assume that it’s also for some far future time, and then read it into the text.

 

[parousia70]

Do you see how much you have to read into that, though? The seven churches, for example. There’s nothing in the text that would lead someone to think it’s more than just an extended Olivet Discourse. You have to assume that it’s also for some far future time, and then read it into the text.

To @eclipsenow point, All of scripture has pastoral application to all Christians of all time.

However, to your point, Just as the Prophesy and narrative of the Flood has pastoral application to us today (and all Christians of all time), we recognize that it does not have PROPHETIC application today, and we know that when God told Noah:
"Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch.", He was not telling you or me or @eclipsenow or anyone besides Noah to "make yourself an ark".

Likewise, when Jesus said to the people of the 1st century Church at Sardis: "Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you." He was not telling you or me or @eclipsenow or anyone besides those first century people at Sardis that "if you don't watch I will come upon you as a thief".

If nothing else, We know that, in spite of it's PASTORAL application to all believers of all time, it does not have PROPHETIC application to anyone besides those at Sardis, by the fact that Jesus did not "come as a thief" to ANY of the 1900+ years of people between the generation of those at Sardis and today who "did not watch".

 

[eclipsenow]

Do you see how much you have to read into that, though? The seven churches, for example. There’s nothing in the text that would lead someone to think it’s more than just an extended Olivet Discourse. You have to assume that it’s also for some far future time, and then read it into the text.

I might not be describing this very well, and I think we'd probably agree more than we disagree.
That is, yes, it's about 7 specific churches at that time.
But so was Galatians written to a church in Galatia, and Corinthians to Corinth, etc. Yet we learn from them as well, and once we've done the hermeneutics to understand what it meant to the original audience and culture, we can apply it to today.

In a way, John goes beyond this. According to Barnett, there were at least 10 big churches in Asia Minor by the time John was writing. Yet he chose the number 7. Why? He was writing the most symbol-full book in the bible - and numbers and colours and names are all important and symbolic while also sometimes describing real events happening to that generation then.

It's like John was consciously describing (not prescribing in timetable fashion as a futurist would read it) what was happening in those churches but with all future generations in mind - warning all of us.

Here's a challenge.
Grab your favourite drink and snack, and watch these.
They're only about 11 minutes each.

 

[Hammster]

I might not be describing this very well, and I think we'd probably agree more than we disagree.
That is, yes, it's about 7 specific churches at that time.
But so was Galatians written to a church in Galatia, and Corinthians to Corinth, etc. Yet we learn from them as well, and once we've done the hermeneutics to understand what it meant to the original audience and culture, we can apply it to today.

In a way, John goes beyond this. According to Barnett, there were at least 10 big churches in Asia Minor by the time John was writing. Yet he chose the number 7. Why? He was writing the most symbol-full book in the bible - and numbers and colours and names are all important and symbolic while also sometimes describing real events happening to that generation then.

It's like John was consciously describing (not prescribing in timetable fashion as a futurist would read it) what was happening in those churches but with all future generations in mind - warning all of us.

Here's a challenge.
Grab your favourite drink and snack, and watch these.
They're only about 11 minutes each.

What we can take from Galatians is message of being saved by grace, not works. That’s universal. That’s the issue Paul was dealing with. It’s a didactic letter.

I don’t think you can apply the same principle with Revelation. As @parousia70 said, there are things we can learn from it. But we still have to accept the reality that it was a specific letter preparing the churches for the soon-coming apocalypse. There’s no reason exegetically to extend that past the events of the first century, except where called for in the last chapters.

 

[eclipsenow]

What we can take from Galatians is message of being saved by grace, not works. That’s universal. That’s the issue Paul was dealing with. It’s a didactic letter.

I don’t think you can apply the same principle with Revelation. As @parousia70 said, there are things we can learn from it. But we still have to accept the reality that it was a specific letter preparing the churches for the soon-coming apocalypse. There’s no reason exegetically to extend that past the events of the first century, except where called for in the last chapters.

It's layered - it's specifically about Roman persecution of the church - but it's also written in such universal apocalyptic symbols we can learn from their situation what to do in times of persecution, wealth, prosperity, when tempted to trust in military power, etc.
Check the videos by the Bible Project.
The author has a Phd in Jewish Symbolism.

 

[parousia70]

It's like John was consciously describing (not prescribing in timetable fashion as a futurist would read it) what was happening in those churches but with all future generations in mind - warning all of us.

I'm with @Hammster on this.

We have no scriptural instruction or precedent to expand Revelation 3:3, as I used in my previous example, as an admonition to anyone beyond those at Sardis in the first century any more than we have instruction or precedent to expand Philippians 2:19 to anyone beyond those at Philippi in the 1st century.

COMPARE THIS:
Php 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.

WITH THIS:
Rev 3:3
Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

Neither of these passages allow for the expansion or generalization of the "you" to anyone beyond the people to whom the letter is addressed.
In Php 2:19 the YOU is ONLY the 1st century Philippians, in Rev 3:3 the YOU is ony the 1st Century people at Sardis.

 

[parousia70]

It's layered - it's specifically about Roman persecution of the church - but it's also written in such universal apocalyptic symbols we can learn from their situation what to do in times of persecution, wealth, prosperity, when tempted to trust in military power, etc.

I can't disagree.

 

[eclipsenow]

I can't disagree.

To get back on the topic of the OP - did any timetables on here expire last year?

 

[claninja]

And what do we do with the knowledge that yet more timetables based on a future-schedule reading of Revelation have proved wrong? Yet again? How passionate were the people promoting these timetables? How utterly certain?

To your knowledge, has anyone lost their faith over this?

@keras had a failed prediction about the year 2012:

Is the Great Tribulation impending ?

“Have a date set on that prediction Keras?

I think I'll go with the "not" and stay "in the dark" with your predictions. Your last one didn't go so well.

PREDICTION: Bruce McKerras claims that the sixth seal of the Book of Revelation will be opened on December 2012. In a book/article that he posted online titled ALETHOS TELOS: The Truth About the End Times he states the following: “2012 December The great and terrible day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a CME sunstrike. Isaiah 30:26. It is the Sixth seal. Worldwide devastation and the Middle East is completely cleared, Psalm 83, a small Jewish remnant survive in Jerusalem. Isaiah 4:3 Many will die elsewhere, such as America: Isaiah 17:4-10, but most will survive…”

And Keras did indeed apologize for that failed prediction:

Is the Great Tribulation impending ?

“Yes, I did 'jump the gun' in 2012, like so many others at that time. I apologized for my error and don't post dates now. That the Lord's Day of wrath didn't happen in 2012, in no way precludes that it won't happen.”

 

[parousia70]

To get back on the topic of the OP - did any timetables on here expire last year?

Here's one.
Will the Beast rise from the sea on February 23, 2021?

 

[parousia70]

Here's another
Futurist Only - Defiling the Temple of Democracy

 

[keras]

@keras had a failed prediction about the year 2012:

Thank you, Clanijia; you do have the facts about me correct.
I admit to being disappointed in 2012, but I still hold to the events I described- as clearly prophesied; will happen and now, 10 years closer.

Basically the preterist believers and the Spiritualizers, plus the Christians who simply ignore the Prophetic Word, are saying to God: I don't care for those unpleasant Words of doom and gloom, just come back, as You have Promised and let me have a glorified body. Thank You Lord.

This world is overdue for a change. Over population, resource depletion, military preparedness and the big one: Denial of the Creator God.
We have been told, in great detail; of what God intends to do. To not take note of it and what we are told to do on that Day, is a serious mistake, which may cost heavily.

 

[eclipsenow]

OK! So there are a few. This might be a useful exercise every year - to try and bring some much needed humility into the futurist community.

 

[keras]

OK! So there are a few. This might be a useful exercise every year - to try and bring some much needed humility into the futurist community.

I see the nay sayers and the prophecy rejecters as the arrogant ones.
They make the people who do promote the Prophetic Word, to be unwise and unnecessarily vocal in their warnings.

Remember; it ISN'T a personal opinion to post the scriptures which tell us, very comprehensively, what the Lord intends to do.
And if we use hindsight and modern knowledge to help explain what the prophets wrote, is that personal opinion?

Actually, I feel sorry for those who have chosen to reject the end time Prophesies. They will be shocked and without a clue on the Day the Lord takes action.

 

[claninja]

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 21You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” 22When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

 

[trophy33]

Actually, I feel sorry for those who have chosen to reject the end time Prophesies. They will be shocked and without a clue on the Day the Lord takes action.

Nope. They will calmly say to themselves "oh, so this is how it was supposed to happen" and thats all. Do not postulate some tragedy.

Even if futurism was true, your wrong predictions and dozens of years of reading the prophecies would not help you in any way compared to a preterist.

The only thing that always matters is to have real faith and to live a holy life.

 

[keras]

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 21You may ask in your heart, “How can we recognize a message that the LORD has not spoken?” 22When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD and the message does not come to pass or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. The prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

So you contend that any unfulfilled prophecy, as Written in our Bibles, is untrue?
Or as a preterist, you believe they have happened, despite there being no historical proof of that. For instance, preterists say that Titus fulfilled the AoD as prophesied in Daniel 9:27. But Titus never sat in the Holy Place and declared himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4
What the Roman armies did in 70 AD, bears no resemblance to the cosmic and dramatic events prophesied in Israel and the world, still to come, in OUR future.

Nope. They will calmly say to themselves "oh, so this is how it was supposed to happen" and thats all. Do not postulate some tragedy.

You don't have any idea of how bad the Lord's Day of fiery wrath is going to be. The prophesies say people will be so frightened they will wet their pants. Ezekiel 7:17
Have you ever been in an earthquake? It is very scary, as you lose the sense of a stable ground to stand on. Combined with enveloping fire and extreme storms, beyond anything imaginable for people today, but the Prophets vividly say it will happen.

The only thing that always matters is to have real faith and to live a holy life.

Then; remember to call upon the Name of the Lord, for His protection. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21
However, to have not bothered to take note of the large amount of scriptures, which carefully describe what God has planned to do, is a serious mistake and may lead to some disadvantage.

 

[trophy33]

Have you ever been in an earthquake? It is very scary, as you lose the sense of a stable ground to stand on. Combined with enveloping fire and extreme storms, beyond anything imaginable for people today, but the Prophets vividly say it will happen.

Not sure how earthquake is caring about if you are a futurist or a preterist. It will either happen or not and your eschatological view will not help you.

However, to have not bothered to take note of the large amount of scriptures, which carefully describe what God has planned to do, is a serious mistake and may lead to some disadvantage.

Actually, the only disadvantage is on the futurists side, because they constantly lose their credibility with all the hysterical and wrong predictions.

 

[eclipsenow]

Actually, the only disadvantage is on the futurists side, because they constantly lose their credibility with all the hysterical and wrong predictions.

Which is what this thread is all about.
They don't just lose credibility themselves, but they make the gospel more unbelievable to unbelievers that sadly read their blogs, and then feel the gospel itself has the same expiry date as their 'predictions.' They're done.

 

[trophy33]

Which is what this thread is all about.
They don't just lose credibility themselves, but they make the gospel more unbelievable to unbelievers that sadly read their blogs, and then feel the gospel itself has the same expiry date as their 'predictions.' They're done.

Yes, the unbalanced stressing of eschatology like if it was something primary, is common in futurism. New Christians can then be mislead into thinking that Christianity cannot work without that.

But the same is also in YEC, KJVO, SDA, prosperity gospel and similar movements that present their "one thing" as the most important.