Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[pasifika]

It says "some".

"I declared "on oath" they shall Never enter My Rest...

God cannot change His statement when he put it on "oath" Hebrews 6:16,17

 

[BobRyan]

"I declared "on oath" they shall Never enter My Rest...

only regarding the "SOME" that did not enter and only in regard to entry into Canaan 3000 years ago, where 40 years later all of them entered. Meanwhile for ALL of them - they kept the 7th day Sabbath for all those 40 years. No manna on Saturday, double manna on Friday, Sabbath services every Saturday.

Is this "helping" your argument in some way to have this detail magnified at this point??

 

[pasifika]

Rom 8:4-12 says it is impossible for the lost to submit to the law of God "they do not and indeed CAN not submit to the Law of God" - only spirit filled Christians can do that.

"These things I write that you sin NOT" 1 John 2:1
"Sin IS (still) transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4

Which means God really really really does not want born-again Christians to "take God's name in vain"... as surprising as that might seem.

We cannot submit to God's law by way of the "letter"...The letter kills, The Spirit gives life

 

[pasifika]

only regarding the "SOME" that did not enter and only in regard to entry into Canaan 3000 years ago, where 40 years later all of them entered. Meanwhile for ALL of them - they kept the 7th day Sabbath for all those 40 years. No manna on Saturday, double manna on Friday, Sabbath services every Saturday

Okay, show me where it says God change His "oath" regarding Not entering into His Rest..

How did they All entered into His Rest? You mean enter the promise land?

 

[Icyspark]

To be specific, Jesus did not say the 7th day Sabbath was made for man..(The "Sabbath" in general)..

Sabbath means "ceased from work" or rest...

Hi pasifika,

This seems like equivocating. BobRyan already responded to this but I don't believe you acknowledged/replied to said response:

Let's read Mark 2 "in context" and find out.

Turns out it is specific to "THE SABBATH"

Mark 2:
23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25 And He *said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; 26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” 27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man (mankind), and not man (mankind) - made for the Sabbath. 28 So the Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath.”

It speaks to the making of BOTH - mankind and the Sabbath which we see in Gen 2:1-2 and Ex 20:11.

The Jewish audience listening in Mark 2 - would have know it.

All the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths only came about at Sinai and all have animal sacrifices and offers at their inception - unlike "the Sabbath" in Gen 2:1-3 that Ex 20:11 references.

My point in referencing Mark 2:27 is in how it nicely correlates and collaborates with point #10 of the opening post. Would you like to postulate on how the word Sabbath found its way into so many different languages around the world as the title for the seventh day?

As for me it is my stated belief that since the Sabbath was made for human beings (anthropos) then naturally it would make its way into different cultures and languages--both ancient and modern.

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

If that is your argument then why is this.." So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall Never enter My Rest"..

Hi pasifika,

This appears to be a dodge. Your contention was that the Sabbath in Mark 2:27 was not "the 7th day Sabbath":

To be specific, Jesus did not say the 7th day Sabbath was made for man..(The "Sabbath" in general)..

Sabbath means "ceased from work" or rest...

BobRyan contextualized Mark 2:27 and established that indeed the Sabbath mentioned in this verse is the seventh day Sabbath (see verses 23-26). Would you at least like to acknowledge this point before jumping to an unrelated contention?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Icyspark]

We cannot submit to God's law by way of the "letter"...The letter kills, The Spirit gives life

Hi pasifika,

According to Scripture the letter identifies sin (i.e. "sin is the transgression of the law).

Paul writes, "if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13). If you're living "by the Spirit" you will not be embracing "the misdeeds of the body."

Interesting, isn't it that you comment that "the letter kills," yet here we see that the Spirit also kills. Those who "live by the Spirit" can and do "submit to God's law" because the Spirit puts "to death the misdeeds of the body." What is the end result of putting to death the misdeeds of the body? Paul answers, "... you will live."

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

This seems like equivocating. BobRyan already responded to this but I don't believe you acknowledged/replied to said response:



My point in referencing Mark 2:27 is in how it nicely correlates and collaborates with point #10 of the opening post. Would you like to postulate on how the word Sabbath found its way into so many different languages around the world as the title for the seventh day?

As for me it is my stated belief that since the Sabbath was made for human beings (anthropos) then naturally it would make its way into different cultures and languages--both ancient and modern.

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hello @Icyspark, I think both Jesus and the Pharisees sees the "meaning" of the Sabbath differently...

The Pharisees sees the Sabbath as a "day" i.e. 7th day only from the Law (10C), That's why they accused the disciples for picking grains which unlawful to do on the Sabbath..

Jesus reply in Mark 2:25 reference to david and his companions being hungry and went into to God's house and eat the "consecrated bread" which only allowed for the Priest to eat"..

This gives an indication both the disciples and David are Not under the Law (letter) in which the Pharisees are accused them of breaking. Which gives a different understanding on the meaning of the Sabbath being Not about a "Day" as in the Law ("letter") , but being with Him the "Lord of the Sabbath" is where we found our Sabbath Rest..as in Hebrews 4..."we who have believed enter that Rest"..

The Sabbath ("Rest" Not the Day) was made for man...

In regards to countries they have the Saturday named as "Sabbath day". The question is, when did that name first used according to their history? Was it always that way from the beginning or use it later on etc

Thanks

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

According to Scripture the letter identifies sin (i.e. "sin is the transgression of the law).

Paul writes, "if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13). If you're living "by the Spirit" you will not be embracing "the misdeeds of the body."

Interesting, isn't it that you comment that "the letter kills," yet here we see that the Spirit also kills. Those who "live by the Spirit" can and do "submit to God's law" because the Spirit puts "to death the misdeeds of the body." What is the end result of putting to death the misdeeds of the body? Paul answers, "... you will live."

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hello, the law ("letter") only show us that we are sinners or still live according to the flesh and condemn us to death..

• The letter condemn us to death...( our whole being )
• The Spirit put to death our "evil way" or "turns us away from evil deeds" to life.

So the "SPIRIT" will lead us away from the misdeeds of our flesh "evil nature" that causes us to be condemned by the Law (letter) to death, and lead us to life..Romans 8:13 is about..

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

This appears to be a dodge. Your contention was that the Sabbath in Mark 2:27 was not "the 7th day Sabbath":


BobRyan contextualized Mark 2:27 and established that indeed the Sabbath mentioned in this verse is the seventh day Sabbath (see verses 23-26). Would you at least like to acknowledge this point before jumping to an unrelated contention?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

The Pharisees accused Jesus disciples of breaking the 7th day Sabbath by picking grains..according to the law(letter)

Jesus, Replied that David also do an unlawful act by the Law (letter) by eating bread in temple which only for the Priest to eat..

Jesus, did not condemn both actions by his disciples or David and his companions which the Law (letter) will condemn.
This will indicate that Jesus and His disciples or David are Not under the Law (letter) in which the Pharisees were keeping.

So the Sabbath view of the Pharisees and Jesus are also different...

The Pharisees view the Sabbath for man as a particular day (i.e. 7th day)

Jesus view of the Sabbath for man is by being together with Him the "Lord of the Sabbath" or believe in Him as Hebrews 4:3.." we who believed enter that Rest"..

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hi pasifika,

According to Scripture the letter identifies sin (i.e. "sin is the transgression of the law).

Paul writes, "if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live" (Romans 8:13). If you're living "by the Spirit" you will not be embracing "the misdeeds of the body."

Interesting, isn't it that you comment that "the letter kills," yet here we see that the Spirit also kills. Those who "live by the Spirit" can and do "submit to God's law" because the Spirit puts "to death the misdeeds of the body." What is the end result of putting to death the misdeeds of the body? Paul answers, "... you will live."

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Thanks. Nice clear post and easy to understand for most.

God bless.

 

[Icyspark]

Hello @Icyspark, I think both Jesus and the Pharisees sees the "meaning" of the Sabbath differently...

The Pharisees sees the Sabbath as a "day" i.e. 7th day only from the Law (10C), That's why they accused the disciples for picking grains which unlawful to do on the Sabbath..

Jesus reply in Mark 2:25 reference to david and his companions being hungry and went into to God's house and eat the "consecrated bread" which only allowed for the Priest to eat"..

This gives an indication both the disciples and David are Not under the Law (letter) in which the Pharisees are accused them of breaking. Which gives a different understanding on the meaning of the Sabbath being Not about a "Day" as in the Law ("letter") , but being with Him the "Lord of the Sabbath" is where we found our Sabbath Rest..as in Hebrews 4..."we who have believed enter that Rest"..

The Sabbath ("Rest" Not the Day) was made for man...

In regards to countries they have the Saturday named as "Sabbath day". The question is, when did that name first used according to their history? Was it always that way from the beginning or use it later on etc

Thanks

Hi pasifika,

I would love to answer this but it appears that there is a deeper issue here (i.e. what your conception is of Jesus and His sinlessness). I have some questions before we proceed further on the topic of the Sabbath:

1. Do you believe Jesus was sinless?
2. If you answered yes to question 1, do you believe He was sinless based on not sinning (i.e. transgressing the law)?
3. If you answered no to question 2, do you believe He was sinless based solely on being God? In other words, was Jesus free to obey or not obey the laws He gave Israel and still be considered sinless?

I look forward to your response.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

I would love to answer this but it appears that there is a deeper issue here (i.e. what your conception is of Jesus and His sinlessness). I have some questions before we proceed further on the topic of the Sabbath:

1. Do you believe Jesus was sinless?
2. If you answered yes to question 1, do you believe He was sinless based on not sinning (i.e. transgressing the law)?
3. If you answered no to question 2, do you believe He was sinless based solely on being God? In other words, was Jesus free to obey or not obey the laws He gave Israel and still be considered sinless?

I look forward to your response.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Hello cyspark, here are the answers..
(1) Yes, Jesus was sinless
(2) He was sinless due to His Faith (by law of Faith) Not by the "works of the Law" Romans 3:27
(3)Jesus became God during His Baptism when the SPIRIT descended on Him..So there was No law that dictate His actions etc He is God in the flesh..Galatians 5:23

 

[Icyspark]

Hello cyspark, here are the answers..
(1) Yes, Jesus was sinless
(2) He was sinless due to His Faith (by law of Faith) Not by the "works of the Law" Romans 3:27

Hi pasifika,

Thank you for your response.

It certainly seems that your beliefs about Jesus are impacting your other beliefs so it's a good thing that we explore this a bit more.

According to your answer to question 2 (do you believe He was sinless based on not sinning [i.e. transgressing the law]?) you say that "He was sinless due to His Faith (by law of Faith) Not by the 'works of the Law' Romans 3:27"

Romans 3:27-31 says, "Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

The law reveals what is expected. Faith doesn't contradict or overrule the law. The two work hand-in-hand. Jesus can't have "faith" and claim to be "sinless" while freely transgressing the law. If Jesus was found to have committed adultery--even one time, even lusting after a woman--then his own words would've condemned him as a sinner and not the Savior.

Jesus's sinlessness was not a mere said sinlessness. He was in fact "spotless" and "blameless." No one could point out any area in His life in which He sinned. He was the spotless "lamb of God." The Pharisees certainly tried to find fault in Jesus. They followed Him, "Looking for a reason to bring charges against" Him, "looking for a reason to accuse Jesus." But what did they find? Nothing. At His trial before the Sanhedrin they had to resort to "false witnesses" who produced "false evidence against Jesus." Why? Because they obviously didn't have any real evidence to use in their attempts to accuse Him even though they were constantly looking to find any reason to condemn Him.

(3)Jesus became God during His Baptism when the SPIRIT descended on Him..So there was No law that dictate His actions etc He is God in the flesh..Galatians 5:23

This sounds problematic so let's unpack this a bit more. You believe that Jesus "became God during His Baptism when the SPIRIT descended on Him"? So what was Jesus before the Spirit descended on Him? It sounds like you think he was just a man up to that point?

1. Do you believe in the Trinity?
2. Do you believe that the Son is God from all eternity?
3. Do you believe that Jesus created all things?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[pasifika]

Hi pasifika,

Thank you for your response.

It certainly seems that your beliefs about Jesus are impacting your other beliefs so it's a good thing that we explore this a bit more.

According to your answer to question 2 (do you believe He was sinless based on not sinning [i.e. transgressing the law]?) you say that "He was sinless due to His Faith (by law of Faith) Not by the 'works of the Law' Romans 3:27"

Romans 3:27-31 says, "Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law."

The law reveals what is expected. Faith doesn't contradict or overrule the law. The two work hand-in-hand. Jesus can't have "faith" and claim to be "sinless" while freely transgressing the law. If Jesus was found to have committed adultery--even one time, even lusting after a woman--then his own words would've condemned him as a sinner and not the Savior.

Jesus's sinlessness was not a mere said sinlessness. He was in fact "spotless" and "blameless." No one could point out any area in His life in which He sinned. He was the spotless "lamb of God." The Pharisees certainly tried to find fault in Jesus. They followed Him, "Looking for a reason to bring charges against" Him, "looking for a reason to accuse Jesus." But what did they find? Nothing. At His trial before the Sanhedrin they had to resort to "false witnesses" who produced "false evidence against Jesus." Why? Because they obviously didn't have any real evidence to use in their attempts to accuse Him even though they were constantly looking to find any reason to condemn Him.





This sounds problematic so let's unpack this a bit more. You believe that Jesus "became God during His Baptism when the SPIRIT descended on Him"? So what was Jesus before the Spirit descended on Him? It sounds like you think he was just a man up to that point?

1. Do you believe in the Trinity?
2. Do you believe that the Son is God from all eternity?
3. Do you believe that Jesus created all things?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Thank you cyspark for your time...

A/
Both the Law (works) and the Gospel (Faith) point to God's Righteousness (God's character). Romans 3:21,22

But the requirement to fulfill that "Righteousness" in us (man) are "different";

Law requires "works" (man's own works or desire, strength etc for Righteousness)

Gospel requires "Faith" for Righteousness (God who will works in us through His Spirit for Righteousness)

See Philippians 3:9 as Paul explains the difference in "Righteousness" from the Law and from Faith..

And since Faith comes by hearing or believe in the Gospel Romans 10, the Gospel does Not teach us to Sin as some people think, it teaches us how to be like Christ!

So Jesus was sinless due to His Father's power that prevents Him Not to Sin, through Faith in Him..

B/

• Jesus was a man (like any of us) before His Baptism..(became "Jesus Christ"), Jesus the "Body", Christ the "SPIRIT" descending.
• I believe there is a Father (God), Son (Christ-God), Holy Spirit
• "Christ" was the Son in "Spirit form" the "Word" in the beginning with the Father.."became "flesh" in the form of Jesus at Babtism...
• God created the world through the Son..

 

[ISteveB]

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.
3. Christ is the one speaking the TEN Commandments at Sinai according to Heb 8:6-12

Interesting...

Sounds like you're saying that man was made for the sabbath.

 

[pasifika]

Interesting...

Sounds like you're saying that man was made for the sabbath.

Never heard this from anyone here on CF before, but you have good understanding of scriptures.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.
3. Christ is the one speaking the TEN Commandments at Sinai according to Heb 8:6-12

Interesting...

Sounds like you're saying that man was made for the sabbath.

How "odd" . so then when God says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- in your POV He is saying "man was MADE FOR not taking God's name in vain"??? Since Jesus said --

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.

Are you serious??

 

[BobRyan]

The Pharisees accused Jesus disciples of breaking the 7th day Sabbath

True - the enemies of Christ often falsely accused Him of being at war with the Word of God - in rebellion against God's word... living out of harmony with God's will.

 

[pasifika]

How "odd" . so then when God says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7 -- in your POV He is saying "man was MADE FOR not taking God's name in vain"??? Since Jesus said --

1. "If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 - is the teaching of Christ.
2. "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6 is the teaching of Christ at Sinai in His Ten Commandments.

Are you serious??

Easier said than done! Easier to say I love God I love my enemies etc the reality is No one can love God or their enemies Unless God is in that person.