BobRyan

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Whose logic are you looking for?
3- what did the members of the council in Jerusalem, Acts 15, say matters?

Acts 15 does not include
1. Honor your father and mother
2. Love God with all your heart
3. Love your neighbor as yourself
4. Do not take God's name in vain

AND - Acts 15:29 it is not an odd "downsized Bible of only 2 sentences for gentiles" hence Paul quoting other commandments in the NT along with other NT writers.

I see in John 13, Jesus said that his commandment is Love.
We love the brotherhood in Christ, we love our neighbors, we love our enemies. We love the poor, needy, etc...

"what matters is keeping the God's Commandments" 1 Cor 7:19 where the TEN are included having "honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Ephh 6:2

In looking at Romans 13:8-10, I don't see the sabbath listed as a commandment

You also don't see "Love God with all your heart"
You also don't see "do not take God's name in vain"

and you don't see "if you love me ignore my 4th commandment"

In looking at Matthew 22:36-40, I don't see the commandment of the sabbath being in the list of the Greatest Commandments.

You also don't see "Love God with all your heart"
You also don't see "do not take God's name in vain"

which of course is no proof at all that taking God's name in vain is no longer a sin or that failing to Love God is no longer a commandment.
 
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pasifika

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If we take the Ps 95 statement about "Today" to mean "Today accept salvation" then it deletes nothing in the Ten Commandments. And always applies to everyone.



The book of Hebrews is written by a Jew (probably spoken in a sermon) - to Christian Jews. It is hard to make the case in Heb 4 that it only has a gentile meaning.

Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one gospel - and not "one for Jews and one for gentiles" as I am sure we can agree.

Gal 3:8 says the one and only Gospel was "preached to Abraham" rather than "not available to OT saints". We might also agree here as well.

In Ps 95:7, "Today" if you hear God's voice..

So, "today" can mean the day when you hear God's voice, a "certain day", and this can tie up with Jesus statement in John5:37, when we "believe" in Jesus then we will hear the voice of God, like a sign of entering into God's Rest. "We who have "believed" enter that Rest" Hebrews 4:3

are Christian Jews aren't Jews?

Paul warn the Galatians not to believe the teachings of the Jews regarding following the "works of the Law" for justification, which I believe the OC believers are doing here.
 
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BobRyan

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Rom 14:4-14 WEB 4 Who are you who judge another’s servant? To his own lord he stands or falls. Yes, he will be made to stand, for God has power to make him stand.

5 One man observes one day above another while another observes every day.

It is a statement about the Bible-approved annual holy days of Lev 23 and does not approve the pagan holy days of Gal 4.
 
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BobRyan

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In Ps 95:7, "Today" if you hear God's voice..

So, "today" can mean the day when you hear God's voice, a "certain day", and this can tie up with Jesus statement in John5:37, when we "believe" in Jesus then we will hear the voice of God, like a sign of entering into God's Rest. "We who have "believed" enter that Rest" Hebrews 4:3

are Christian Jews aren't Jews?

The statement is made in David's day. And it did not delete the Sabbath commandment. "Today hear God's voice " cannot be turned into "Today do NOT hear God's voice but wait for 1000 years for Heb 4 to be written". Nor do we find any text saying "when you begin to hear God's voice you will cease to keep His commandments"... on the contrary we have 1 Cor 7:19
 
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BobRyan

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He further stated in Colossians 2

Col 2:12-23 WEB 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 You were dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh. He made you alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, 14 wiping out the handwriting in ordinances which was against us. He has taken it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. 15 Having stripped the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no one therefore judge you in eating, or in drinking, or with respect to a feast day or a new moon or a Sabbath day, 17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s.

Matt 7:1-7 condemns judging others and so does Col 2:16 - no change pre-cross vs post-cross

Col 2 is not about condemning God's Word - it is about condemning "making stuff up" as we see

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words.
..
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men,
...
18 Let no one rob you of your prize by self-abasement and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and ligaments, grows with God’s growth. 20 If you died with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 “Don’t handle, nor taste, nor touch” 22 (all of which perish with use), according to the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed appear like wisdom in self-imposed worship, humility, and severity to the body; but aren’t of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.
 
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BobRyan

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If you actually want to keep the sabbath, according to Romans 14, you're more than welcome to. Nobody is saying anything about that.
Trying to force others to keep the sabbath.... that's another issue entirely.

1. You never quote me forcing anyone to do anything. You quote me .. quoting the Bible.
2. Rom 14 never mentions any of the Ten Commandments - not even the 7th day Sabbath.

Acts 18:4 they meet "every Sabbath" preaching the gospel - to gentiles and Jews - even believing ones ... since it is "every Sabbath" and not "one or two".

Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the New Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

the point remains.
 
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pasifika

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The statement is made in David's day. And it did not delete the Sabbath commandment. "Today hear God's voice " cannot be turned into "Today do NOT hear God's voice but wait for 1000 years for Heb 4 to be written". Nor do we find any text saying "when you begin to hear God's voice you will cease to keep His commandments"... on the contrary we have 1 Cor 7:19

The NT writer quoted which means is still for NT believers..."Today" if you hear..

Today is the "day" we believe in the Gospel of Jesus...

Did you hear God's voice now or today?


You keep going back to old covenant
commandments which God's said "They shall Never enter My Rest" so the 7th day is Not the day of Rest...But the certain day "Today"..
 
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ISteveB

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Heb 8:6-12 says all the commandments spoken at Sinai - were spoken by Christ.
Not arguing about that.

The issue is that you want a logical reasoning behind why you have a right to demand others to obey a law that you have violated before you came to Jesus.

Your entire hypothesis is based on the premise that keeping one law, out of ten will justify you with God.

James tells us that if you break one of the laws, you are guilty of breaking the whole law.
Jas 2:10-11 WEB 10 For whoever keeps the whole law, and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. 11 For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not commit murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

So, you have a far greater problem here than just keeping one law.
 
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ISteveB

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Jesus never said "unless you stop taking God's name in vain you cannot enter the kingdom of God"
Jesus never said "unless you love God with all your heart and soul - you cannot enter the kingdom of God"

But that is not some sort of odd "proof" that those commands are not Christ's or do not exist.

Eph 6:2 say of THE TEN "'Honor your father and mother' which is the first commandment WITH a promise"

No. He actually said that unless you are born again, you cannot enter or see God's Kingdom. John 3:3-5.

He further said that unless your righteousness exceeds the scribes and pharisees, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

He said further still that unless you become as a little child you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.

So, as you appear to be arguing that in order to enter God's Kingdom we must keep the sabbath, I'm wondering if you have actually been born again, received the righteousness of God through trusting Jesus, and become a child.
 
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BobRyan

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ISteveB
said:
2- show me where he said that unless you keep the sabbath, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

Jesus never said "unless you stop taking God's name in vain you cannot enter the kingdom of God"
Jesus never said "unless you love God with all your heart and soul - you cannot enter the kingdom of God"

But that is not some sort of odd "proof" that those commands are not Christ's or do not exist.

Eph 6:2 say of THE TEN "'Honor your father and mother' which is the first commandment WITH a promise"

No. He actually said that unless you are born again, you cannot enter or see God's Kingdom. John 3:3-5.

Indeed. As I said you know you have no text saying "unless you stop taking God's name in vain you cannot enter the kingdom of God" and yet you argue "show me where he said that unless you keep the sabbath, you cannot enter the Kingdom of God"... seems a bit conflicted just then.

so then I never said "either be born again - or stop taking God's name in vain" as if you can't be born again if you stop taking God's name in vain. It is not a reasonable alternative.


So, as you appear to be arguing that in order to enter God's Kingdom we must keep the sabbath

How about - instead of quoting you saying that and then accusing me of saying it -- first quote me saying it then go ahead and accuse me of saying it ...
 
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BobRyan

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ISteveB said:
Whose logic are you looking for?

1- show me where Jesus said that the sabbath was one of HIS commandments.

Heb 8:6-12 says all the commandments spoken at Sinai - were spoken by Christ.

Not arguing about that.

Then you agree - Christ is God and God's Commandments are Christ's Commandments as Christ says on Sinai

Ex 20:6 " showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

No wonder He says it again in John 14:15 "if you Love Me - Keep My Commandments"

The issue is that you want a logical reasoning behind why you have a right to demand others to obey .

Let's start with the easy part:
Do you have a post from me saying "BobRyan demands others to obey" something?

you can't keep quoting "you" then accusing me of saying whatever you choose to say in your post. Doesn't this statement sound reasonable to you?
 
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ISteveB

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Acts 15 does not include
1. Honor your father and mother
2. Love God with all your heart
3. Love your neighbor as yourself
4. Do not take God's name in vain

AND - Acts 15:29 it is not an odd "downsized Bible of only 2 sentences for gentiles" hence Paul quoting other commandments in the NT along with other NT writers.



"what matters is keeping the God's Commandments" 1 Cor 7:19 where the TEN are included having "honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Ephh 6:2



You also don't see "Love God with all your heart"
You also don't see "do not take God's name in vain"

and you don't see "if you love me ignore my 4th commandment"



You also don't see "Love God with all your heart"
You also don't see "do not take God's name in vain"

which of course is no proof at all that taking God's name in vain is no longer a sin or that failing to Love God is no longer a commandment.
Indeed.... you're making it increasingly clear that you are trying to get people to be justified by the adherence to the law, instead of God's justification through faith in Jesus.
Which is exactly why the apostles gave so short a list in Acts 15.

You will never be justified by keeping the law.
Paul detailed this in Romans, and Galatians.

Your attempts to get justified by the law is like trying to climb to the moon on a rope made of sand.

Rom 3:20-28 WEB 20 Because by the works of the law, no flesh will be justified in his sight; for through the law comes the knowledge of sin. 21 But now apart from the law, a righteousness of God has been revealed, being testified by the law and the prophets; 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all those who believe. For there is no distinction, 23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God sent to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus. 27 Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. 28 We maintain therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Gal 3:10 WEB For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who doesn’t continue in all things that are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

So, your desperation to adhere to the law has placed you under the curse of the law.

The only way to be justified with God is to place your trust entirely on Jesus.

Rom 4:23-25 WEB 23 Now it was not written that it was accounted to him for his sake alone, 24 but for our sake also, to whom it will be accounted, who believe in him who raised Jesus, our Lord, from the dead, 25 who was delivered up for our trespasses, and was raised for our justification.
Rom 5:1-2 WEB 1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand. We rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Jesus is absolutely the ONLY way to receive the justification of faith, which Abraham experienced.
 
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ISteveB

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5 One man observes one day above another while another observes every day.

It is a statement about the Bible-approved annual holy days of Lev 23 and does not approve the pagan holy days of Gal 4.
The Roman church at Paul's time was Jewish and gentile. He was talking to a Jewish audience.
So, he was talking about the Holy days of the Law.

This is reiterated in Colossians 2.
 
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BobRyan

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Your entire hypothesis is based on the premise that keeping one law, out of ten will justify you with God.

Have I said that - or are you quoting you again.

The lost sinner has the following problem

Rom 3:23 - all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Rom 3: 20 by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

Indeed.... you're making it increasingly clear that you are trying to get people to be justified by the adherence to the law, instead of God's justification through faith in Jesus.

That is an "odd" accusation just then.
in Rom 8:4-12 we see that lost persons "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they"

By contrast to saints in Rev 14:12
By contrast to saints in Rom 3:31
By contrast to saints in Rom 8:4-12
By contrast to saints in 1 John 5:3
 
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BobRyan

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The Roman church at Paul's time was Jewish and gentile. He was talking to a Jewish audience.
So, he was talking about the Holy days of the Law.

Indeed - the list of annual holy days in Lev 23.
 
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BobRyan

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Your entire hypothesis is based on the premise that keeping one law, out of ten will justify you with God.

it would be much better if your false accusations had someone other than you as the quoted example/source for what you want to claim I am proposing.

For example in our post above - the ONLY quote you have of me is this

BobRyan said:
Heb 8:6-12 says all the commandments spoken at Sinai - were spoken by Christ.

And your response was
Not arguing about that.
.

which essentially says "agreed"

but then followed by more false accusation.

That is not a "compelling" form of discussion.
 
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pasifika

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Have I said that - or are you quoting you again.

The lost sinner has the following problem

Rom 3:23 - all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.
Rom 3: 20 by the works of the Law none of mankind will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes knowledge of sin.



That is an "odd" accusation just then.
in Rom 8:4-12 we see that lost persons "do not submit to the law of God neither indeed CAN they"

By contrast to saints in Rev 14:12
By contrast to saints in Rom 3:31
By contrast to saints in Rom 8:4-12
By contrast to saints in 1 John 5:3
Bob, do you know there is a law based on works and Law based on Faith..Romans 3.
You're trying to get people to follow the works of the Law..no one can be justified by following that law...
 
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ISteveB

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Matt 7:1-7 condemns judging others and so does Col 2:16 - no change pre-cross vs post-cross

Col 2 is not about condemning God's Word - it is about condemning "making stuff up" as we see

4 Now this I say lest anyone should deceive you with persuasive words.
..
8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men,
...
18 Let no one rob you of your prize by self-abasement and worshiping of the angels, dwelling in the things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 and not holding firmly to the Head, from whom all the body, being supplied and knit together through the joints and ligaments, grows with God’s growth. 20 If you died with Christ from the elements of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to ordinances, 21 “Don’t handle, nor taste, nor touch” 22 (all of which perish with use), according to the precepts and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed appear like wisdom in self-imposed worship, humility, and severity to the body; but aren’t of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.
I find it curious that you deleted the point from verses 16 forward.

You're showing that you are seeking to be justified by adherence to the law.

You will never be able to adhere to the law.
Even Paul describes the problem in Philippians 3.
He was a master at keeping the law, and threw it all into the garbage to acquire the righteousness that is through faith in Jesus.

I further note in Isaiah 64:6 that our works are putrid menstrual rags to God.
Hebrews 6 describes the problem of dead works. Apart from the new birth, there is nothing we can do to please God. We further read in Hebrews 11 that the ONLY way to please God is to believe him.
 
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BobRyan

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Your attempts to get justified by the law is like trying to climb to the moon on a rope made of sand.

For this to work - you have to actually quote me and accuse of something I said - instead of accusing me of whatever you choose to post.
 
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