SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

[Dale]

I reject your claims here and happy to discuss the detail as to why I disagree with you from the scriptures. For example you say that Jeremiah 4:23-26 is not much help because it is not stating that the word "devil" or "Satan" is used. It does not have to as the scriptures here are talking about what happens at the second coming at the presence of God and that the earth as we know it being made desolate by Gods' judgements becomes empty with no more mankind being present. You say the SDA has the devil and his angels reigning 1000 years on the new earth yet how can that be true if there is no one for them left to reign over? Malachi 4:1-5 is the message of the prophet Elijah to make straight the paths of the Lord which was the same message as John the baptist gave before the coming of Christ the first time (compare Malachi 4:1-5 with Luke 1:12-17; Matthew 11:7-11; Matthew 11:13-14; Matthew 17:10-13; John does not say he is Elijah but has the message of Elijah Isaiah 40:3 with Matthew 3:1-3; John 1:19-21) In this sense the Elijah message is to be given to the world as Gods last warning to be given for all mankind just before the second coming of Jesus and the great day of God's judgements put an end to the living wicked when Jesus comes to receive His people as a groom receives His bride (Gods true people).

There is no contradiction here. Satan is bound up as there is nothing for Satan to reign over. At the second coming those who have remained faithful have been gathered to Christ while the wicked have been destroyed. The Greek word used here for "bound" according to Liddell/Scott/Jones Greek-English Lexicon - G1210 δέω also means forced to be alone, bind, keep in bonds, πῶς ἂν ἐγώ σε δέοιμι; says Hephaistos, pointing to the nets in which he had caught Ares, Od. 8.352; αὐτὸς δ' ἔδησε πατέρα A. Eu. 641; δήσαντες ἔχειν τινάς Th. 1.30; δησάντων αὐτὸν οἱ ἕνδεκα Lex ap. D. 24.105, etc. metaph., bind, enchain, γλῶσσα δέ οἱ δέδεται Thgn. 178; κέρδει καὶ σοφία δέδεται Pi. P. 3.54; ψυχὰ δ. λύπῃ E. Hipp. 160 (lyr.). So the scripture does not necessarily mean to be literally chained up for 1000 years. Here the scripture means that he is no longer able to tempt mankind to sin until the 1000 years have been completed. Essentially at this time Satan is not reigning as anything as he and his angels are in prison in the earth that has been desolated and destroyed by the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven.

Your claims here are not true because according to the scriptures after the 1000 years after the second coming, the wicked dead in Christ are raised after the 1000 year reign at the second resurrection (Revelation 20:5-9). The first resurrection being to those who had died in Christ that were returned to life at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 compare the trumpet of God at the second coming with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; compare with Revelation 20:5-6).

Exactly which has already been shown through the scriptures. Please see previous sections of this post and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 compare the trumpet of God at the second coming with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; compare with Revelation 20:5-9.

Take Care

LGW: “At the second coming those who have remained faithful have been gathered to Christ while the wicked have been destroyed.”


The wicked have been destroyed? Adventists have made a basic error in interpreting Revelation on this point. In Revelation 19:19, the armies of the Beast come against the Rider on the White Horse, which is Christ. Those armies are destroyed by Christ. The passage doesn’t say that all unsaved people are destroyed, only that the armies that come against Christ will be struck down. As we find in the next chapter, there are still “nations” on earth, people are still living and reproducing. The Final Judgment hasn’t come yet.



Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their

armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the
horse and his army.
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet
who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With
these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark
of the beast and worshipped his image. The two of them were
thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur.
The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of
the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged
themselves on their flesh.
Rev 19: 19-21 NIV

 

[BobRyan]

Jeremiah Chapter 4 isn’t about the Second Coming. It also isn’t addressed to the entire world

1. Jer 4 - says the entire world is to be desolated
2. Jer 4 - says the entire world is to have no humans on it just as Rev 19 says "the rest were killed" and 2 Thess 1 has all the lost destroyed while 1 Thess 4 has all the saints raptured to heaven.
3. Jer 4 says all the cities are in ruins due to the fierce anger of the Lord

As stated before --

SUMMARY:

1. The EARTH - without form and void - 4:23
2. The HEAVENS - had no light 4:23
3. Mountains - quaking 4:24
4. Hills - moving back and forth 4:24
5. NO Humans - 4:25
6. BIRDS - had fled - 4:25
7. ALL cities in ruins before the ANGER of the LORD 4:26
8. Earth is not completely destroyed -- but is DESOLATE 4:27
9. Heavens are dark 4:28

DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken; I have purposed; I have not relented, nor will I turn back.”


=================== The "other" option

Since you reject the idea that this happens at the Rev 19 appearance of Christ where "the rest were killed" - WHEN do you propose that it happens? What is "the other" option in your POV?

 

[Dale]

Rod of Iron means "judgment without mercy" -- Jesus and the armies of heaven in Rev 19 destroying all the unsaved at the same time as He is rapturing all the saints to heaven.



Nope. Look at Rev 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse, and He who sat on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and wages war. 12 His eyes are a flame of fire, and on His head are many crowns; and He has a name written on Him which no one knows except Himself. 13 He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses. 15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

There is no "kind shepherd taking care of the nations" there.

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

There is no "kind shepherd taking care of the nations" there.

21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

All mankind slain.. no one left to bury the dead. The birds consume the dead.

Rod of Iron -- judgment without mercy... all destroyed.

No text says a kind loving shepherd "rules the sheep with a rod of iron"

On the contrary

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”


21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

All mankind slain.. no one left to bury the dead. The birds consume the dead.

Rod of Iron -- judgment without mercy... all destroyed.

Bob, in post #41 and again in post #42, you quote Revelation 19: 18 to say that the birds will eat “the flesh of all people.”

I would suggest to you that “all people” simply means that no one is immune, rank or station is irrelevant. It doesn’t mean that everyone dies and the earth is left empty of people.

In your interpretation of Revelation, the saved are raptured, taken to heaven, and the unsaved are slaughtered. This contradicts the clear meaning of the text of Revelation 19.

Re. 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike
down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron sceptre.”
[Psalm 2:9] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath
of God Almighty.
Re. 19:16 On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KINGOF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
--NIV


If everyone is slain by the sword of God, there is no one left to rule “with an iron sceptre.”

The order of events is not as clear as you seem to think. At the conclusion of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, or Wheat and Weeds, we find:

No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the
weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will
tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’”
Matthew 13:29-30 NIV


In this Parable, the weeds, the wicked, are burned BEFORE the wheat, the righteous, or the justified, are gathered in. You can’t assume that the righteous, the saved, are out of the way before the vultures, the birds, “eat the flesh of all people.” As I said, “all people” simply means that no one is immune. People of all stations who join the army of the Beast will be slain but there will be many people on earth who aren’t part of that army.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LGW: “At the second coming those who have remained faithful have been gathered to Christ while the wicked have been destroyed.”

The wicked have been destroyed? Adventists have made a basic error in interpreting Revelation on this point. In Revelation 19:19, the armies of the Beast come against the Rider on the White Horse, which is Christ. Those armies are destroyed by Christ. The passage doesn’t say that all unsaved people are destroyed, only that the armies that come against Christ will be struck down. As we find in the next chapter, there are still “nations” on earth, people are still living and reproducing. The Final Judgment hasn’t come yet
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their

armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the
horse and his army.
But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet
who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With
these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark
of the beast and worshipped his image. The two of them were
thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulphur.
The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of
the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged
themselves on their flesh.
Rev 19: 19-21 NIV

Where did I say to you Revelation 19:19 says the wicked are destroyed? Your making arguments here no one is arguing about....

The remaining wicked who are alive at the second coming will be put to death and partake of the second resurrection of the wicked after the 1000 years...

Revelation 20:1-15
[1], And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. [2], And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (timing is the second coming)
[3], And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. [4], And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5], But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6], Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Note: What happens at the second coming here..

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 [14], For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15], For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16], For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17], Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

After the 1000 years since the second coming....

[7], And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8], And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. [9], And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. [10], And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. [11], And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12], And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13], And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14], And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15], And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

................

The wicked living at the second coming will be put to death from the presence of the Lord

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 [7], And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8], In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9], Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10], When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-10 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth, and destroy with the brightness of His coming. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Matthew 13:38-42 [38] The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; [39] The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.[40] As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. [41] The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; [42] And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Perhaps you should consider the scriptures here Dale that disagree with you.

Take Care.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, in post #41 and again in post #42, you quote Revelation 19: 18 to say that the birds will eat “the flesh of all people.”

I would suggest to you that “all people” simply means that no one is immune, rank or station is irrelevant.

It does not say they ate "one of every kind of person" that is not an accurate rendering of the text in context.

It doesn’t mean that everyone dies and the earth is left empty of people.

It says the armies opposing Christ are all killed and then that "the rest were killed" by the sword that comes from His mouth (His Word).

That leaves nothing.

And of course 2 Thess 1 says all the unsaved are killed.

In your interpretation of Revelation, the saved are raptured, taken to heaven, and the unsaved are slaughtered. This contradicts the clear meaning of the text of Revelation 19.

Re. 19:15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike
down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron sceptre.”

On the contrary ruling with a rod of iron means... judgment no mercy.

Which is perfectly consitent with destroying all the lost.

Heb 9 says Jesus appears a second time WITHOUT reference to saving the lost.

If everyone is slain by the sword of God, there is no one left to rule “with an iron sceptre.”

That act of destroying all the wicked IS "ruling with a rod of iron". It does not tolerate the wicked, the sinful nature - the nature bent on rebellion.

 

[BobRyan]

The order of events is not as clear as you seem to think. At the conclusion of the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, or Wheat and Weeds, we find:

No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the
weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will
tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in
bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’”
Matthew 13:29-30 NIV


In this Parable, the weeds, the wicked, are burned BEFORE the wheat, the righteous, or the justified, are gathered in. You can’t assume that the righteous, the saved, are out of the way before the vultures, the birds, “eat the flesh of all people.” As I said, “all people” simply means that no one is immune. People of all stations who join the army of the Beast will be slain but there will be many people on earth who aren’t part of that army.

In the Rev - context for Rev 19... we have:

In Rev 7 the saints are sealed first -- before the judgment of God falls on mankind.

In Rev 14 the righteous are reaped first - before the wicked are slain.​

In the Matt 13 parable we have:-

Even so it says -- “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”​

It does not say "and burn them then gather the wheat" - so even your appeal to that parable does not conflict with the sequences given in Rev 7 and 14 and 19. In the parable binding the wicked and gathering the saints does not require burning the wicked first before gathering the saints... and of course "parables do not stand on all fours" -- as we probably both know, you can't get the level of specificity you need from that "parable".

And a lot more groups besides SDAs admit that the saints are raptured before the wicked experience judgments of God on Earth.

 

[Andrewn]

Decieves nation on the earth - @ 2:50 Satan Released from pit - decieves nations , which don't exist according to SDA Theology

This is the most important point raised in the thread. Have you received an explanation for this discrepancy from SDA's? Sorry if I missed the explanation.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

This is the most important point raised in the thread. Have you received an explanation for this discrepancy from SDA's? Sorry if I missed the explanation.

If you see my signature, you will notice I am an SEA, Seventh-day Evangelical Adventist. I nolonger hold to the traditional or mainline view. I advocate for change to a more accurate view.

 

[Andrewn]

If you see my signature, you will notice I am an SEA, Seventh-day Evangelical Adventist. I nolonger hold to the traditional or mainline view. I advocate for change to a more accurate view.

What beliefs do SEA's uphold? Is this like 7th day Baptists?

Have you received an answer from SDA's about the armies assembled after satan's release?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

1. evangelical conditionalism
2. origin of the Lord's day
3. 666 pointing to Solomon god's rep and Adonikim God people.
4. 1000 years on the earth.
5. Sunday Law

 

[Adventist Dissident]

What beliefs do SEA's uphold? Is this like 7th day Baptists?

Have you received an answer from SDA's about the armies assembled after satan's release?

they are hostle they go to Ellen White to defend their view. I don't accept Ellen White as any kind of spiritual Authority.

 

[tall73]

there is not a lot of evidence from scripture, most of it is conjecture, but resonable conjecture.
Adam was created the rule of this world, then he fell, then Christ became the ruler of this world.

1.Ask yourself this question. How did Adam and Satan get to and from heaven? How do the angels travel back and forth from heaven to earth?

Given it is not stated I am not sure we can settle on a gate. Even in this story Jacob did not use the gate to travel. And I am not sure why God would need a gate to make someone travel. We see Paul's account in 2 Corinthians about how he was caught up to the third heaven. Why couldn't God do that anytime He wanted, wherever He wanted?

2. When God created the world, it was empty. He gave the command to be fruitful and mutiply, it was to be filled. When it was filled how were people to get from one side of the planet to the other? My thinking is that he, being the all knowing all wise God he would have planned for that, and created a something to make that happen, a gate seem reasonable. if you can go up and down you can go across as well.

Here you seem to be a travel mechanism mechanism that is not necessarily going to heaven, like a star gate from the movie?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Given it is not stated I am not sure we can settle on a gate. Even in this story Jacob did not use the gate to travel. And I am not sure why God would need a gate to make someone travel. We see Paul's account in 2 Corinthians about how he was caught up to the third heaven. Why couldn't God do that anytime He wanted, wherever He wanted?

that did not include the body

Here you seem to be a travel mechanism mechanism that is not necessarily going to heaven, like a star gate from the movie?

the angels went up & down the ladder

 

[tall73]

that did not include the body

He wasn't sure whether it was in the body or not:

2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
2Co 12:3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows

the angels went up & down the ladder

That is true, but it was also in a dream.

Elijah was taken up to heaven, not in a dream, and it was not a gate that took him, but a whirlwind:

2Ki 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Philip was carried away by the Spirit when he was needed elsewhere, without reference to a gate:

Act 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.
Act 8:40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

He wasn't sure whether it was in the body or not:

2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
2Co 12:3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows



That is true, but it was also in a dream.

Elijah was taken up to heaven, not in a dream, and it was not a gate that took him, but a whirlwind:

2Ki 2:11 And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Philip was carried away by the Spirit when he was needed elsewhere, without reference to a gate:

Act 8:39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing.
Act 8:40 But Philip found himself at Azotus, and as he passed through he preached the gospel to all the towns until he came to Caesarea.

1. Paul said he could not tell, so that in inconclusive at best.
2. Elijah - was in a chariot of fire, giving rise to the ideas that God uses craft.
3. Philip - was moved from one place to another, by the spirit, what ever that mean, inconclusive.

so there is no way to rule out 1 & 3 from consideration, no is there a way to prove it. It just shows that God has ways to move people that are as of yet unknown to people. but are there. he could have used a gate, he could have used some other method.

 

[tall73]

Also in vision contexts, but it doesn't sound like they needed a gate:

Dan 9:21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people.

 

[tall73]

1. Paul said he could not tell, so that in inconclusive at best.
2. Elijah - was in a chariot of fire, giving rise to the ideas that God uses craft.
3. Philip - was moved from one place to another, by the spirit, what ever that mean, inconclusive.

so there is no way to rule out 1 & 3 from consideration, no is there a way to prove it. It just shows that God has ways to move people that are as of yet unknown to people. but are there. he could have used a gate, he could have used some other method.

Yes, He can, and apparently did, use any method He wanted to.

Go back and read the Elijah account again.The chariot separated them, but it is not clear the chariot carried him. Also, a craft is not a gate.

11 Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

And interestingly the prophets thought God's Spirit could have set him somewhere, which is somewhat parallel to what happened to Philip.

2 Kings 2:15 Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, “The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha.” And they came to meet him, and bowed to the ground before him. 16 Then they said to him, “Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley.”

 

[tall73]

1. Paul said he could not tell, so that in inconclusive at best.

Then how is the ladder incident conclusive when it was a dream as well? One way or another Paul relates that the person was there, either in body, or out.

 

[tall73]

icedragon101 said: ↑

Decieves nation on the earth - @ 2:50 Satan Released from pit - decieves nations , which don't exist according to SDA Theology

This is the most important point raised in the thread. Have you received an explanation for this discrepancy from SDA's? Sorry if I missed the explanation.

I agree that is a key part of the timeline that has not been clarified. I asked about it here as well, but have not seen a response.

tall73 said: ↑

I am not sure what to make of some of the details of Rev. 19-20, and have been considering various views for some time.

But one of the things you would need to explain is the timeline. You say there are no nations during the 1k years. But he is put in the abyss so that he cannot deceive the nations.

And then when he is let out, he deceives them again. That doesn't make a lot of sense if they are not there.

And it is not until after satan deceives the nations and the fire from heaven consumes them that the 2nd resurrection is stated to happen. So by your logic there should be no nations to deceive.

Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Satan deceives the nations, then meets his fate. But it is stated that after this the resurrection happens and then each receive their fate.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Then how is the ladder incident conclusive when it was a dream as well? One way or another Paul relates that the person was there, either in body, or out.

I said it was conjecture, but the text says it was the "Gate of God" Bethel. so we can speculate as to what that means. It is not like I made it up.