SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

[Adventist Dissident]

I see the ladder as pointing to Christ, the Way to heaven, based on the following:

Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

but it was an actual gate.

 

[tall73]

but it was an actual gate.

You referring to?

Gen 28:16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.”
Gen 28:17 And he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”

The limiting factor is that it was a dream.


Jesus says He is the way to heaven, and the door to the sheep pen:

Joh 14:4 And you know the way to where I am going.”
Joh 14:5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?”
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.


Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You referring to?

Gen 28:16 Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, “Surely the LORD is in this place, and I did not know it.”
Gen 28:17 And he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”

The limiting factor is that it was a dream.


Jesus says He is the way to heaven, and the door to the sheep pen:

Joh 14:4 And you know the way to where I am going.”
Joh 14:5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?”
Joh 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


Joh 10:6 This figure of speech Jesus used with them, but they did not understand what he was saying to them.
Joh 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.


Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

but it was a gate

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Strong's Hebrew: 8179. שַׁ֫עַר (shaar) -- a gate

Strong's Hebrew: 8176. שָׁעַר (shaar) -- to calculate, reckon

Strong's Hebrew: 7778. שׁוֹעֵר (shoer) -- a gatekeeper

 

[tall73]

but it was a gate

If you think it was a literal gate how do you interpret Jesus' words in John 1:51?

Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

 

[Adventist Dissident]

If you think it was a literal gate how do you interpret Jesus' words in John 1:51?

Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

How does him making a comparison to the event , negate the event I don't see the problem

 

[tall73]

How does him making a comparison to the event , negate the event I don't see the problem

Does it negate the event or explain the event? What do you think the event was?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Does it negate the event or explain the event? What do you think the event was?

so you are saying the the ladder was Jesus? is it saying that like the ladder Jesus is the way to God.

 

[tall73]

so you are saying the the ladder was Jesus? is it saying that like the ladder Jesus is the way to God.

Yes, possibly. A few thoughts:

a. The event took place in a dream.
a. God reiterated the promises given to Abraham and Isaac.
b. These promises included that the descendants of Jacob would inherit the land (including the place he was sleeping), but also that all nations would be blessed through the seed of Abraham. This directly points to the gospel and to Christ, per Paul.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

c. He sees God and the stairway, connecting earth and heaven.

So yes, I think it may symbolize that the promises given to Abraham point to Christ, and the work of salvation for man, and that heaven and earth are connected through the promises to Abraham, now given again to Jacob.

So I think Jesus is saying that He, the Son of Man, is the connection between God and man, and the fulfillment of the promises.

Now Jacob seemed to attach most of the significance to the place, and thought of it as gate to heaven.

But Jesus seems to re-direct not to a place, but to Himself as the key element, and promises His new followers that they will see the fulfillment.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Yes, possibly. A few thoughts:

a. The event took place in a dream.
a. God reiterated the promises given to Abraham and Isaac.
b. These promises included that the descendants of Jacob would inherit the land (including the place he was sleeping), but also that all nations would be blessed through the seed of Abraham. This directly points to the gospel and to Christ, per Paul.

Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”

Gal 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

c. He sees God and the stairway, connecting earth and heaven.

So yes, I think it may symbolize that the promises given to Abraham point to Christ, and the work of salvation for man, and that heaven and earth are connected through the promises to Abraham, now given again to Jacob.

So I think Jesus is saying that He, the Son of Man, is the connection between God and man, and the fulfillment of the promises.

Now Jacob seemed to attach most of the significance to the place, and thought of it as gate to heaven.

But Jesus seems to re-direct not to a place, but to Himself as the key element, and promises His new followers that they will see the fulfillment.

since I am of the opinion that gates to heaven exist, the benefit of the doubt goes in that direction. gates period exist.

 

[tall73]

since I am of the opinion that gates to heaven exist, the benefit of the doubt goes in that direction. gates period exist.

Could you provide further information regarding gates to heaven in your view then from Scripture?

And could God reveal Himself to Jacob in any place, or only at a gate? Did it become a gate at that time, or was it a gate already?

 

[tall73]

since I am of the opinion that gates to heaven exist, the benefit of the doubt goes in that direction. gates period exist.

Do you think this has any bearing on the question?

Joh 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

 

[tall73]

The only other texts that came to mind:

2Co 12:2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows.
2Co 12:3 And I know that this man was caught up into paradise—whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows—
2Co 12:4 and he heard things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

My view currently is that God can open a door to anyone whenever He wants.

 

[pasifika]

If you think it was a literal gate how do you interpret Jesus' words in John 1:51?

Joh 1:49 Nathanael answered him, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”
Joh 1:50 Jesus answered him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.”
Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

Hello @tall73 do you think the Son of Man here John1:51 point to the "ladder" in Jacob's dream Not the gate..

 

[tall73]

Hello @tall73 do you think the Son of Man here John1:51 point to the "ladder" in Jacob's dream Not the gate..

Yes, since it was the ladder the angels ascended and descended upon:

Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

Though I am not sure how to distinguish them completely. Jesus said He is the way, and He said He was the door for the sheep. It seems Jacob applied the "gate" terminology to the location of Bethel generally.

Gen 28:17 And he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”

 

[pasifika]

Yes, since it was the ladder the angels ascended and descended upon:

Gen 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold, there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven. And behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it!

Joh 1:51 And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

Though I am not sure how to distinguish them completely. Jesus said He is the way, and He said He was the door for the sheep. It seems Jacob applied the "gate" terminology to the location of Bethel generally.

Gen 28:17 And he was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.”

Yes agree, the gate is referring to "Bethel" (the gate to God's house)..

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Could you provide further information regarding gates to heaven in your view then from Scripture?

And could God reveal Himself to Jacob in any place, or only at a gate? Did it become a gate at that time, or was it a gate already?

there is not a lot of evidence from scripture, most of it is conjecture, but resonable conjecture.
Adam was created the rule of this world, then he fell, then Christ became the ruler of this world.

1.Ask yourself this question. How did Adam and Satan get to and from heaven? How do the angels travel back and forth from heaven to earth?

Ps. 82:1,6,7, context is about the Divine Council, Mount of the Congregation, Vs. 6 says your are like God's but like Adam (Man) you will die.
It put Adam in the divine council. So how did he get there and back?

2. When God created the world, it was empty. He gave the command to be fruitful and mutiply, it was to be filled. When it was filled how were people to get from one side of the planet to the other? My thinking is that he, being the all knowing all wise God he would have planned for that, and created a something to make that happen, a gate seem reasonable. if you can go up and down you can go across as well.

 

[Dale]

I reject your claims here and happy to discuss the detail as to why I disagree with you from the scriptures. For example you say that Jeremiah 4:23-26 is not much help because it is not stating that the word "devil" or "Satan" is used. It does not have to as the scriptures here are talking about what happens at the second coming at the presence of God and that the earth as we know it being made desolate by Gods' judgements becomes empty with no more mankind being present. You say the SDA has the devil and his angels reigning 1000 years on the new earth yet how can that be true if there is no one for them left to reign over? Malachi 4:1-5 is the message of the prophet Elijah to make straight the paths of the Lord which was the same message as John the baptist gave before the coming of Christ the first time (compare Malachi 4:1-5 with Luke 1:12-17; Matthew 11:7-11; Matthew 11:13-14; Matthew 17:10-13; John does not say he is Elijah but has the message of Elijah Isaiah 40:3 with Matthew 3:1-3; John 1:19-21) In this sense the Elijah message is to be given to the world as Gods last warning to be given for all mankind just before the second coming of Jesus and the great day of God's judgements put an end to the living wicked when Jesus comes to receive His people as a groom receives His bride (Gods true people).

There is no contradiction here. Satan is bound up as there is nothing for Satan to reign over. At the second coming those who have remained faithful have been gathered to Christ while the wicked have been destroyed. The Greek word used here for "bound" according to Liddell/Scott/Jones Greek-English Lexicon - G1210 δέω also means forced to be alone, bind, keep in bonds, πῶς ἂν ἐγώ σε δέοιμι; says Hephaistos, pointing to the nets in which he had caught Ares, Od. 8.352; αὐτὸς δ' ἔδησε πατέρα A. Eu. 641; δήσαντες ἔχειν τινάς Th. 1.30; δησάντων αὐτὸν οἱ ἕνδεκα Lex ap. D. 24.105, etc. metaph., bind, enchain, γλῶσσα δέ οἱ δέδεται Thgn. 178; κέρδει καὶ σοφία δέδεται Pi. P. 3.54; ψυχὰ δ. λύπῃ E. Hipp. 160 (lyr.). So the scripture does not necessarily mean to be literally chained up for 1000 years. Here the scripture means that he is no longer able to tempt mankind to sin until the 1000 years have been completed. Essentially at this time Satan is not reigning as anything as he and his angels are in prison in the earth that has been desolated and destroyed by the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven.

Your claims here are not true because according to the scriptures after the 1000 years after the second coming, the wicked dead in Christ are raised after the 1000 year reign at the second resurrection (Revelation 20:5-9). The first resurrection being to those who had died in Christ that were returned to life at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 compare the trumpet of God at the second coming with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; compare with Revelation 20:5-6).

Exactly which has already been shown through the scriptures. Please see previous sections of this post and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 compare the trumpet of God at the second coming with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; compare with Revelation 20:5-9.

Take Care

LovesGodsWord,

I’d like to apologize to you and others for taking weeks to respond to posts in this thread. I’ve had a number of things happen that I needed to deal with. I’ve had to to change insurance companies, I’ve been prying documents out of city hall, and doing favors for a friend, among other things. In general, I try to respond in a timely fashion.

 

[Dale]

I reject your claims here and happy to discuss the detail as to why I disagree with you from the scriptures. For example you say that Jeremiah 4:23-26 is not much help because it is not stating that the word "devil" or "Satan" is used. It does not have to as the scriptures here are talking about what happens at the second coming at the presence of God and that the earth as we know it being made desolate by Gods' judgements becomes empty with no more mankind being present. You say the SDA has the devil and his angels reigning 1000 years on the new earth yet how can that be true if there is no one for them left to reign over? Malachi 4:1-5 is the message of the prophet Elijah to make straight the paths of the Lord which was the same message as John the baptist gave before the coming of Christ the first time (compare Malachi 4:1-5 with Luke 1:12-17; Matthew 11:7-11; Matthew 11:13-14; Matthew 17:10-13; John does not say he is Elijah but has the message of Elijah Isaiah 40:3 with Matthew 3:1-3; John 1:19-21) In this sense the Elijah message is to be given to the world as Gods last warning to be given for all mankind just before the second coming of Jesus and the great day of God's judgements put an end to the living wicked when Jesus comes to receive His people as a groom receives His bride (Gods true people).

There is no contradiction here. Satan is bound up as there is nothing for Satan to reign over. At the second coming those who have remained faithful have been gathered to Christ while the wicked have been destroyed. The Greek word used here for "bound" according to Liddell/Scott/Jones Greek-English Lexicon - G1210 δέω also means forced to be alone, bind, keep in bonds, πῶς ἂν ἐγώ σε δέοιμι; says Hephaistos, pointing to the nets in which he had caught Ares, Od. 8.352; αὐτὸς δ' ἔδησε πατέρα A. Eu. 641; δήσαντες ἔχειν τινάς Th. 1.30; δησάντων αὐτὸν οἱ ἕνδεκα Lex ap. D. 24.105, etc. metaph., bind, enchain, γλῶσσα δέ οἱ δέδεται Thgn. 178; κέρδει καὶ σοφία δέδεται Pi. P. 3.54; ψυχὰ δ. λύπῃ E. Hipp. 160 (lyr.). So the scripture does not necessarily mean to be literally chained up for 1000 years. Here the scripture means that he is no longer able to tempt mankind to sin until the 1000 years have been completed. Essentially at this time Satan is not reigning as anything as he and his angels are in prison in the earth that has been desolated and destroyed by the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven.

Your claims here are not true because according to the scriptures after the 1000 years after the second coming, the wicked dead in Christ are raised after the 1000 year reign at the second resurrection (Revelation 20:5-9). The first resurrection being to those who had died in Christ that were returned to life at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 compare the trumpet of God at the second coming with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; compare with Revelation 20:5-6).

Exactly which has already been shown through the scriptures. Please see previous sections of this post and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 compare the trumpet of God at the second coming with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; compare with Revelation 20:5-9.

Take Care

LGW: “For example you say that Jeremiah 4:23-26 is not much help because it is not stating that the word "devil" or "Satan" is used. It does not have to as the scriptures here are talking about what happens at the second coming at the presence of God and that the earth as we know it being made desolate by Gods' judgements becomes empty with no more mankind being present.”



Jeremiah Chapter 4 isn’t about the Second Coming. It also isn’t addressed to the entire world but specifically to Israel.

“If you will return, O Israel, return to me,” declares the
LORD. “If you put your detestable idols out of my sight and
no longer go astray …"
Jeremiah 4:1 NIV


The SDA have misunderstood this chapter completely because they don’t understand the historical context. Jeremiah lived through the pillaging of Israel and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple by the Babylonians. That is the desolation that Jeremiah is talking about.



Harper’s Bible Dictionary, 1971 ; Under Jeremiah: p.310, col 1:

“When Jerusalem was taken by the Chaldeans in 587 [BC] the aging prophet was treated with great consideration by the orders of Nebuchadnezzar …”

The Babylonian army has burned the fields, taken and pillaged Jerusalem and torn down the city walls. In addition, the Babylonians have destroyed the Temple and the Ark of Covenant. The gold on the Ark was probably melted down and carried off. The Tablets of the Law in the Ark were probably smashed. If you were a devout Jew living through this, wouldn’t you consider this to be desolation?


When Jeremiah says that the land lacks inhabitants, he is comparing this situation to happier times. During the Babylonian invasion, some people have been killed, and others have fled to other countries for safety. Most of the educated Jews were carried off to Babylon to serve the King of Babylon. On fleeing to other countries, Jeremiah himself eventually fled to Egypt.

 

[Dale]

I reject your claims here and happy to discuss the detail as to why I disagree with you from the scriptures. For example you say that Jeremiah 4:23-26 is not much help because it is not stating that the word "devil" or "Satan" is used. It does not have to as the scriptures here are talking about what happens at the second coming at the presence of God and that the earth as we know it being made desolate by Gods' judgements becomes empty with no more mankind being present. You say the SDA has the devil and his angels reigning 1000 years on the new earth yet how can that be true if there is no one for them left to reign over? Malachi 4:1-5 is the message of the prophet Elijah to make straight the paths of the Lord which was the same message as John the baptist gave before the coming of Christ the first time (compare Malachi 4:1-5 with Luke 1:12-17; Matthew 11:7-11; Matthew 11:13-14; Matthew 17:10-13; John does not say he is Elijah but has the message of Elijah Isaiah 40:3 with Matthew 3:1-3; John 1:19-21) In this sense the Elijah message is to be given to the world as Gods last warning to be given for all mankind just before the second coming of Jesus and the great day of God's judgements put an end to the living wicked when Jesus comes to receive His people as a groom receives His bride (Gods true people).

There is no contradiction here. Satan is bound up as there is nothing for Satan to reign over. At the second coming those who have remained faithful have been gathered to Christ while the wicked have been destroyed. The Greek word used here for "bound" according to Liddell/Scott/Jones Greek-English Lexicon - G1210 δέω also means forced to be alone, bind, keep in bonds, πῶς ἂν ἐγώ σε δέοιμι; says Hephaistos, pointing to the nets in which he had caught Ares, Od. 8.352; αὐτὸς δ' ἔδησε πατέρα A. Eu. 641; δήσαντες ἔχειν τινάς Th. 1.30; δησάντων αὐτὸν οἱ ἕνδεκα Lex ap. D. 24.105, etc. metaph., bind, enchain, γλῶσσα δέ οἱ δέδεται Thgn. 178; κέρδει καὶ σοφία δέδεται Pi. P. 3.54; ψυχὰ δ. λύπῃ E. Hipp. 160 (lyr.). So the scripture does not necessarily mean to be literally chained up for 1000 years. Here the scripture means that he is no longer able to tempt mankind to sin until the 1000 years have been completed. Essentially at this time Satan is not reigning as anything as he and his angels are in prison in the earth that has been desolated and destroyed by the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven.

Your claims here are not true because according to the scriptures after the 1000 years after the second coming, the wicked dead in Christ are raised after the 1000 year reign at the second resurrection (Revelation 20:5-9). The first resurrection being to those who had died in Christ that were returned to life at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 compare the trumpet of God at the second coming with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; compare with Revelation 20:5-6).

Exactly which has already been shown through the scriptures. Please see previous sections of this post and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 compare the trumpet of God at the second coming with 1 Corinthians 15:51-54; compare with Revelation 20:5-9.

Take Care

To amplify the point I have already made about the “desolation” in Jeremiah 4 being the result of the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians, look at what the great commentator John Gill has to say.

From John Gill’s commentary on Jeremiah 4:

“ ...Jer 4:3 and then the destruction of that land and city is foretold and described ... by an account of the destroyers, their cruelty, swiftness, and diligence, Jer 4:7, and of the destruction itself, compared to a violent wind, Jer 4:11 …”

Ver. 23. I beheld the earth,.... The land of Judea, not the whole world;

Ver. 25. And I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,.... No people dwelling in it, as the Targum; the land was without inhabitants, they were either killed with the sword, or taken and carried captive into Babylon, or fled into Egypt and other countries …

[Ver. 26]
and all the cities thereof; not of Carmel only, but of the whole land:
were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger; for though this was done by the Chaldeans, yet it was by the will and appointment of God …


“Chaldeans” is a term for the Babylonians. John Gill fully understood that the Jeremiah was talking about events that took place before the time of Christ.