Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[rjs330]

Does that mean you plan to make (continue) a practice of "enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions"?

We are both believers. Why do you come after me as if I am in unbelief?

Huh?

 

[Saint Steven]

How does that answer my question?

You seem to be claiming that the "lost" are victims of God, and by their own choice.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that Jesus died to save us from God?

 

[rjs330]

Were the spirits he preached to physically alive or dead?

They were obviously dead as was Christ.

Is Jesus still dying and going to the prison and resurrecting again and again?

 

[Saint Steven]

Huh?

Rather than make an attempt to understand where I am coming from, you have decided to make this an "us versus them" debate.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that mean you plan to make (continue) a practice of "enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions"?

We are both believers. Why do you come after me as if I am in unbelief?

 

[rjs330]

You seem to be claiming that the "lost" are victims of God, and by their own choice.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Do you believe that Jesus died to save us from God?

I implied no such thing. You made that assumption of what I said because of what the saint has said. When in fact I said no such thing or implied no such thing.

People choose to reject God because they are lovers of themselves and of wickedness. They are not victims of anything but their own lusts.

 

[rjs330]

Rather than make an attempt to understand where I am coming from, you have decided to make this an "us versus them" debate.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Does that mean you plan to make (continue) a practice of "enmities, strife, jealousies, wraths, factions, divisions"?

We are both believers. Why do you come after me as if I am in unbelief?

Why are you coming after me with statements implying I think God is some sort of monster and I'm making people out to be victims of God?

Why would you be in unbelief? You are not in unbelief if you trust in Christ for your salvation. Which I'm positive you have.

But you did create a thread about UR in controversial theology. Did you believe no one would challenge that belief?

 

[hedrick]

You should agree with me on this issue. UR believes that people will be saved in Hades.

I don't think there's any specific view of just how people end up reconciled that's mandatory for UR. The most explicit Biblical support I can see (and it's only one way to read the text) is 1 Cor 15. But if that describes UR, it seems to happen as part of the end. I don't think the passage envisions people left in Hades who will later be reconciled.

Similarly, the few hints you can find in Jesus' teachings would base it on God's forgiveness, not delayed repentance.

Jesus appearing to the dead (if that's what the passages mean) seem to be a one-time occurrence to deal with people living before Jesus.

 

[rjs330]

This is sadism on a level seen nowhere is human history. Is your god really worse than any human that ever lived? I hope not.

Do you make God out to be some kind of cosmic tyrant in need of anger management help?

I understand this thinking. You are not the only person to say this.

But how can God be worse than any person whoever lived? Are we God? Do we understand all things? Do we know all there is to know? Are we holy, pure, righteous and just in our own selves? Do we think exactly like God? Did we speak the universe into existence. Did we determine what is righteous and what is not?

Did God not say that his ways are unfathomable? Did he not say his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways?

What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that hath mercy.For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth.So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will he hardeneth.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:and that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he afore prepared unto glory,even us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? - Romans 9:14-24 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 9:14-24 - American Standard Version

There is no one like God, perfect in all his ways and perfect in all his judgements.

Scripture tells us we don't understand call things now, but someday we will. So God's punishments are right and good. Who am I to say otherwise?

 

[Andrewn]

The most explicit Biblical support I can see (and it's only one way to read the text) is 1 Cor 15. But if that describes UR, it seems to happen as part of the end. I don't think the passage envisions people left in Hades who will later be reconciled.

I think 1Co 15:22 is about physical resurrection of all people rather than UR. It neither opposes nor supports UR, IMO.

I don't think there's any specific view of just how people end up reconciled that's mandatory for UR.

Reconciliation can take place before resurrection of the body, after the resurrection, or both. In agreement w/ the EO Catechism, I believe in post-mortem progression before the resurrection as discussed in post #730:

David Bentley Hart on Hell

Jesus appearing to the dead (if that's what the passages mean) seem to be a one-time occurrence to deal with people living before Jesus.

The EO Catechism does not understand that passage as a one-time occurrence.

Actually surveys suggest that a majority of Christians in the US think at least some non Christians can be saved. This seems to be the official Catholic position, as well as mainline Protestants.

This is , certainly, true.

 

[Andrewn]

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

This is, certainly, true. All occurrences of the the word "exomologeo" in the NT indicate whole-hearted confession without duress.

 

[Saint Steven]

But how can God be worse than any person whoever lived?

I agree.
That's why Damnationism is wrong.

Jesus taught us that loving our enemies is godly behavior.
It is not love to incinerate your enemies.

Some make God out to be worse than a pagan or a tax collector. (traitor)

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Hmm]

The EO Catechism does not understand that passage as a one-time occurrence.

The idea that it is is a misunderstanding caused by a 'scandelous' mistranslation. This was discussed in another thread but it's worth requoting this note from Keith DeRose on the subject:

[Note: The NIV scandalously translates the beginning of I Peter 4:6 as “For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead,” confessing in a study note to the NIV Study Bible — users of NIV’s other than the NIV Study Bible don’t get this warning — that “the word ‘now’ does not occur in the Greek,” and explaining that the reason they’ve added it is that, for reasons coming from another part of the Bible, not even in the book of I Peter, they believe that there are no further chances after death. Now, the case they give in that note for the doctrine of no further chances is hopelessly weak. (We’ll encounter it below.) But put that aside for the moment. The more pressing point here is that this practice of doctoring a translation to protect the theological positions that the translators happen to hold on controversial issues is deplorable. The much more responsible NRSV, true to its general character, more reliably translates this passage as, “For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead.” This better translation leaves the matter of whether “the dead” refers to people who were dead when they were preached to or rather to those who were dead at the time of the writing of I Peter about as open as it is in the original Greek. The NIV translators, on the other hand, for no respectable reason, add a word to close down the reading, left open in the Greek, that doesn’t best serve their own theological purposes, though it seems the more natural of the two readings.]

 

[Saint Steven]

Did God not say that his ways are unfathomable?

If God truly is as Damnationism describes Him, then that would be a good way to sugarcoat it. Unfathomable indeed. An incomprehensible evil. Believe or burn = spiritual extortion.

Accept the free gift of salvation today. If you aren't interested, you will be incinerated. Your choice.

 

[Saint Steven]

This is, certainly, true. All occurrences of the the word "exomologeo" in the NT indicate whole-hearted confession without duress.

Thanks for researching that. What a great insight.

And this distinction is so important to the passage in question.
Opponents of UR claim that most every knee that bows and the tongues that acknowledges Jesus Christ as Lord will do so as a forced confession against their will. But as is evident, that is not the NT Greek word used here.

Frankly, what good is a forced confession? Does it somehow make God more glorious? Of course not. Does it accomplish any good purpose? It only makes God out to be a merciless tyrant. Seems blasphemous to me.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[Saint Steven]

This is, certainly, true. All occurrences of the the word "exomologeo" in the NT indicate whole-hearted confession without duress.

Did you notice any other surprising occurrences of the word?

 

[rjs330]

I agree.
That's why Damnationism is wrong.

Jesus taught us that loving our enemies is godly behavior.
It is not love to incinerate your enemies.

Some make God out to be worse than a pagan or a tax collector. (traitor)

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Yes God is perfect in all his ways and all his judgements. God welcomes everyone into his family. You don't have to be good to be saved. Even the most vile sinner is loved by God and is offered salvation. For while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. We don't have to clean ourselves up first. We don't have to make ourselves worthy to be saved.

Note that these verses have nothing to do with the final judgement or eternal reward. These verses talk about love. And remember what John 3:16 says. God showed his love to the world by sending his son. That whomever believes. There are zero scriptures that support a doctrine that says everyone will believe in him. In fact there are scriptures that support the opposite. That not everyone will.

You are bringing God down to man's level. You can't understand it therefore it can't be. But are you God? Who can truly judge? Not me, not you, but God can.

 

[hedrick]

I think 1Co 15:22 is about physical resurrection of all people rather than UR. It neither opposes nor supports UR, IMO.

I checked 5 different commentaries on 1 Cor. While some are ambiguous on some points, all seemed to agree that 22ff are about resurrection of believers only, and that the enemies subjected to Christ are the supernatural powers and death, not humans. They are subjected in the sense that they are destroyed.

15:50-55 envisions only resurrection of believers.

None of the commentaries were trying to deal with the topic of this discussion, but all seemed to imply with varying degrees of explicitness, that Paul does not envision a general resurrection, but only of believers. Thiselton says specifically that the concensus (which is not unamimous) is that 1 Cor 15 does not envision a general resurrection.

This would be consistent with the view in both John and Paul that resurrection is a result of being in Christ. There are signs of this in the Synoptics as well, but I think it’s harder to be clear what (if anything) is taught there about non followers of Jesus.

 

[Andrewn]

Did you notice any other surprising occurrences of the word?

Exomologeo "G1843" occurs 11 times in the NT and is occasionally translated "give praise." There is no hint of compulsion anywhere. It is also applied to the Lord Jesus himself a couple of times. Obviously, He is not forced to confess. The following quotations are from the NASB:

Mat 3:6 and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, as they confessed G1843 their sins.

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise G1843 You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent, and have revealed them to infants.

Mar 1:5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing G1843 their sins.

Luk 10:21 At that very time He rejoiced greatly in the Holy Spirit, and said, “I praise G1843 You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. Yes, Father, for doing so was well pleasing in Your sight.

Luk 22:6 And so he consented G1843, and began looking for a good opportunity to betray Him to them away from the crowd.

Act 19:18 Also many of those who had believed kept coming, confessing G1843 and disclosing their practices.

Rom 14:11 For it is written: “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, TO ME EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, AND EVERY TONGUE WILL GIVE G1843 PRAISE G1843 TO GOD.”

Rom 15:9 and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is written: THEREFORE I WILL GIVE G1843 PRAISE G1843 TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I WILL SING PRAISES TO YOUR NAME.”

Phl 2:11 and that every tongue will confess G1843 that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jas 5:16 Therefore, confess G1843 your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. A prayer of a righteous person, when it is brought about, can accomplish much.

Rev 3:5 ‘The one who overcomes will be clothed the same way, in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess G1843 his name before My Father and before His angels.

 

[rjs330]

If God truly is as Damnationism describes Him, then that would be a good way to sugarcoat it. Unfathomable indeed. An incomprehensible evil. Believe or burn = spiritual extortion.

Accept the free gift of salvation today. If you aren't interested, you will be incinerated. Your choice.

Sugarcoat? Is that what God is trying to do? Is he trying to sugarcoat himself? That would mean God is being deceptive. God never sugarcoats anything. He doesn't have to. He said he is unfathomable and his ways are not ours. God says this.

And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true.And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.But for the fearful, and unbelieving, and abominable, and murderers, and fornicators, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, their part shall be in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death.and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie: but only they that are written in the Lamb’s book of life. - Revelation 21:5-8,27 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 21:5-8, Revelation 21:27 - American Standard Version

I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.Blessed are they that wash their robes, that they may have the right to come to the tree of life, and may enter in by the gates into the city.Without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the fornicators, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one that loveth and maketh a lie. - Revelation 22:13-15 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 22:13-15 - American Standard Version

These verses can be no more clear as to the fate of people who are not written in the Lambs Book of Life.

if so be that it is a righteous thing with God to recompense affliction to them that afflict you,and to you that are afflicted rest with us, at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with the angels of his power in flaming fire,rendering vengeance to them that know not God, and to them that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus:who shall suffer punishment, even eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.To which end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfil every desire of goodness and every work of faith, with power;that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. - 2 Thessalonians 1:6-12 Bible Gateway passage: 2 Thessalonians 1:6-12 - American Standard Version

Note again that those who refuse Christ will suffer punishment.

I've provided scripture after scripture including the words of Christ who is very clear about what happens to those who refuse to accept Jesus.

God is not a man he is not like a man. His ways are just and to compare him to man belittles him. It makes Him small.

To those that want to use man's understanding and put him in the level of man, remember what God did to judge people in the OT? What he did to Adam and Eve, what he did to the world at the time of Noah, what he did to Sodom and Gomorrah? Those are just a few examples. Some would say "God is worse than man cause we wouldn't do those things." But again we are NOT God and God is not like us. He IS perfect, therefore his judgments are too.

I leave you once again with John.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up;that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life.For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life.For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God.And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved.But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. - John 3:14-21 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:14-21 - American Standard Version


And some things on the wrath of God.

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, If any man worshippeth the beast and his image, and receiveth a mark on his forehead, or upon his hand,he also shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:and the smoke of their torment goeth up for ever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, they that worship the beast and his image, and whoso receiveth the mark of his name. - Revelation 14:9-11 Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 14:9-11 - American Standard Version

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. - John 3:35-36 Bible Gateway passage: John 3:35-36 - American Standard Version

If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.For ye died, and your life is hid with Christ in God.When Christ, who is our life, shall be manifested, then shall ye also with him be manifested in glory.Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry;for which things’ sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience: - Colossians 3:1-6 Bible Gateway passage: Colossians 3:1-6 - American Standard Version

Yes the wrath of God is real on those who do not believe. And God is righteous in all his judgments. Otherwise he would just be a man.

But men put themselves there. Because as Jesus said they love darkness rather than light. They don't want God, they don't want Christ, they don't want to acknowledge what great sacrifice Jesus made. They want to be their own god.

 

[Andrewn]

15:50-55 envisions only resurrection of believers.

I'm not sure why your commentaries have a tendency to apply certain verses to Christians only. They do this with Mat 25:40 & 45 and Rom 2:14 and, now, 1Co 15:50-55! Is this a Calvinist bias?

1Co 15:22 For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

This verse clearly indicated that everyone will be resurrected. Why would the Apostle Paul change his opinion in midstream?