Are there spiritual fathers in our time?

[ArmyMatt]

But most of all, by the presence of the Holy Spirit within those who are deified, in His role of conviction of sin. It is said that even one glance from a holy man, will cause the sinful to repent and fall down with grief for his unholy state. It is recorded in holiness teaching which is also found (though practiced by few) in western churches in the past.

not always. sometimes sinful men try to kill or harm the holy man and not repent. and again, this doesn’t support your point that is being addressed.

 

[bmjackson]

not always. sometimes sinful men try to kill or harm the holy man and not repent. and again, this doesn’t support your point that is being addressed.

Scripture is clear, that a man can go so far that he no longer can respond to the Holy Spirit, as did those at Christs crucifixion. My point is that a holy man will have an effect on those who are not hardened of heart.

 

[bmjackson]

well, the apostles aren’t every bishop. and again, St Paul doesn’t say that it’s a requirement.

and elsewhere in the Scriptures, St Paul does say that St Peter slipped, and St Paul publicly rebuked him.

Peter did not slip into sin, it was about his error in theology that Paul corrected.

 

[bmjackson]

for humans, to be perfect is to constantly seek to be perfected. theosis comes along that process, but again, it’s not a requirement to be a bishop.

If perfect means to be seeking it, then Orthodoxy is not different than the western church and the halos mean nothing.

 

[bmjackson]

.. when the intellect has been perfected, it unites wholly with God and is illumined by divine light, and the most hidden mysteries are revealed to it. Then it truly learns where wisdom and power lie... While it is still fighting against the passions it cannot as yet enjoy these things... But once the battle is over and it is found worthy of spiritual gifts, then it becomes wholly luminous, powerfully energized by grace and rooted in the contemplation of spiritual realities. A person in whom this happens is not attached to the things of this world but has passed from death to life." St. Thalassios, "On Love, Self-control and Life in accordance with the Intellect" Philokalia (Vol. 2)", p. 355)

A mind which wages passionate war does not see the plans of the adversary; for then it is like a warrior fighting at night. But after gaining passionlessness, it easily discerns the wiles of the enemy. Abba Evagrius the Monk(Texts on Active Life no. 55)

 

[ArmyMatt]

Scripture is clear, that a man can go so far that he no longer can respond to the Holy Spirit, as did those at Christs crucifixion. My point is that a holy man will have an effect on those who are not hardened of heart.

sure, my point was that it’s not always repentance.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Peter did not slip into sin, it was about his error in theology that Paul corrected.

error in theology is by definition sin

 

[ArmyMatt]

If perfect means to be seeking it, then Orthodoxy is not different than the western church and the halos mean nothing.

as an Orthodox Christian, that is incorrect.

 

[ArmyMatt]

.. when the intellect has been perfected, it unites wholly with God and is illumined by divine light, and the most hidden mysteries are revealed to it. Then it truly learns where wisdom and power lie... While it is still fighting against the passions it cannot as yet enjoy these things... But once the battle is over and it is found worthy of spiritual gifts, then it becomes wholly luminous, powerfully energized by grace and rooted in the contemplation of spiritual realities. A person in whom this happens is not attached to the things of this world but has passed from death to life." St. Thalassios, "On Love, Self-control and Life in accordance with the Intellect" Philokalia (Vol. 2)", p. 355)

A mind which wages passionate war does not see the plans of the adversary; for then it is like a warrior fighting at night. But after gaining passionlessness, it easily discerns the wiles of the enemy. Abba Evagrius the Monk(Texts on Active Life no. 55)

and neither of these, true as they are, say it’s a requirement for a bishop to attain theosis.

 

[bmjackson]

and neither of these, true as they are, say it’s a requirement for a bishop to attain theosis.

We are discussing two issues: is theosis sinlessness or a state of being without passions , and is it required of a bishop. You seem to now agree with the first one.

I have had an answer which is: ' the hierarchical distinction between deacon, presbyter and bishop follows the pattern of purification - illumination - glorification.' and await a reference.

You say 'error in theology is by definition sin' but do not give a reference for this which makes it just your opinion. Please cite the source for this. Even Paul said 1 Cor 7:12 “To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord)…” showing that he did not have an infalible understanding of everything.

 

[ArmyMatt]

We are discussing two issues: is theosis sinlessness or a state of being without passions , and is it required of a bishop. You seem to now agree with the first one.

I have had an answer which is: ' the hierarchical distinction between deacon, presbyter and bishop follows the pattern of purification - illumination - glorification.' and await a reference.

You say 'error in theology is by definition sin' but do not give a reference for this which makes it just your opinion. Please cite the source for this. Even Paul said 1 Cor 7:12 “To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord)…” showing that he did not have an infalible understanding of everything.

I never denied that theosis is sinlessness. my only issue is that it’s been a requirement for a bishop.

yes, that is the pattern, but that doesn’t mean it’s a requirement.

and lastly, sin means to miss the mark. if the target is God, an error in theology misses the target, and is therefore sin.

 

[Nathaniel Red]

where is the rule that all bishops must have attained theosis?

I dont think its necessarily a rule, but is expected by the spirit of the law rather than the letter. As Jonathan pageau says, the peasant doesn't go to hell. The higher you go on a pyramid the more is cut off and the higher you have responsibilities the more is expected.

right, but theosis has a very specific meaning. being “perfect” is more broad.

I've heard and used theosis with many broad meanings. Theosis could mean the reconciliation of all creation into God, or could mean the general process of humanity becoming god, or could mean something close to the higher levels of that process which is sainthood in this life, or could be the renewed state of humanity after the final judgement.

no, that’s not what that means. humans can’t beget others with the divine nature.

God is truth itself. If we give others truth, we give them God. If we love someone, that love is god. We are to be empty vessel which the water of life fills and then overflows into other vessels. Isnt that giving it to others? Maybe its similar to the kind of distinction as made with the filioque, where it becomes heretical only if you see it as a direct source, which this isnt.

 

[Nathaniel Red]

You say 'error in theology is by definition sin' but do not give a reference for this which makes it just your opinion. Please cite the source for this. Even Paul said 1 Cor 7:12 “To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord)…” showing that he did not have an infalible understanding of everything.

(2 Corinthians 5:21) "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

This means that God who is life itself became death (which is called sin) so that by dying in him we find life. God's love became the new hell, like a candle going into the dark, the room became filled with light.

Therefore, anything which is not of God is sin, anything which is not of he who is life is death, including false beliefs and unwilling actions or unknown wrongdoings.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I dont think its necessarily a rule, but is expected by the spirit of the law rather than the letter. As Jonathan pageau says, the peasant doesn't go to hell. The higher you go on a pyramid the more is cut off and the higher you have responsibilities the more is expected.



I've heard and used theosis with many broad meanings. Theosis could mean the reconciliation of all creation into God, or could mean the general process of humanity becoming god, or could mean something close to the higher levels of that process which is sainthood in this life, or could be the renewed state of humanity after the final judgement.



God is truth itself. If we give others truth, we give them God. If we love someone, that love is god. We are to be empty vessel which the water of life fills and then overflows into other vessels. Isnt that giving it to others? Maybe its similar to the kind of distinction as made with the filioque, where it becomes heretical only if you see it as a direct source, which this isnt.

the whole discussion is about if it’s a rule or not.

yeah, and in all your examples, it’s creation being deified.

and giving it to others isn’t begetting the Divine Nature.

(sorry for how I responded, but my phone was being a bugger with quoting stuff.)

 

[bmjackson]

ArmyMatt

Paul said that bishops and even deacons should be blameless. Elsewhere he has said that he and others did behave blamelessly on a visit to back up his preaching of the gospel, which is the doctrine of theosis, so I think we can assume that whatever heights of spirituality can be reached, the greatest apostle reached it.

We have this from Fr John Romanides:

"Theoretically, the clergy is supposed to be elected from among the faithful who have reached illumination or glorification. The historical outline of the process, whereby it became customary to elect bishops who had not reached the spiritual experience of which dogmas are a verbal expression, is described by Saint Symeon the New Theologian (d. 1042), recognized as one of the greatest Fathers of the Church. This means that his historical analysis is part of the Orthodox Church's self-understanding.
The three stages of perfection are three stages of spiritual understanding and, at one time, existed in each community. This is comparable to having in each community university students, graduate students, and professors. This would be the case when religious leaders are at the higher levels of illumination. However, it is possible that the religious leaders may not be spiritually at the level of the students.
The outcome of the collapse among the clergy in the spiritual life and understanding thus far described, was the rise of an ascetic movement parallel to the Episcopal communities. This became the monastic movement, which preserved the prophetic and apostolic tradition of spirituality and theology. When the custom prevailed that bishops were recruited mostly from monasticism, the ancient tradition of bishops as masters in spirituality and theology was greatly restored, due to the very powerful influence of Saint Symeon the New Theologian. This restoration was so strong that it gave the East Roman Churches the strength to not only survive the dissolution and disappearance of the Empire, but also to keep spirituality and theology at a surprisingly high level during the Ottoman occupation of the four East Roman Patriarchates, right down to the so-called "Greek" revolution. Fr John Romanides" FRANKS, ROMANS, FEUDALISM, AND DOCTRINE Part 2

Here is another from Saint Gregory of Sinai. There is only one state where ones speech can always be filled with grace which also answers on another point you refuted.

“According to St. Paul (cf. Rom. 15:16), you “minister” the Gospel only when, having yourself participated in the light of Christ, you can pass it on actively to others. Then you sow the Logos like a divine seed in the fields of your listeners’ souls. ‘Let your speech be always filled with grace’, says St Paul (Col. 4:6), ‘seasoned’ with divine goodness. Then it will impart grace to those who listen to you with faith. Elsewhere St. Paul, calling the teachers tillers and their pupils the field they till (cf. II Tim. 2:6), wisely presents the former as ploughers and sowers of the divine Logos and the latter as the fertile soil, yielding a rich crop of virtues. True ministry is not simply a celebration of sacred rites; it also involves participation in divine blessings and the communication of these blessings to others.”

 

[bmjackson]

(2 Corinthians 5:21) "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God."

This means that God who is life itself became death (which is called sin) so that by dying in him we find life. God's love became the new hell, like a candle going into the dark, the room became filled with light.

Therefore, anything which is not of God is sin, anything which is not of he who is life is death, including false beliefs and unwilling actions or unknown wrongdoings.

You are saying that apostle Paul was not in the state of Theosis and therefore that puts a doubt of anyone reaching that state which is nonsense. He got things badly wrong when he thought it was the devil saying to him not to go up to Jerusalem when in fact it was the Holy Spirit. A mistake not a sin.

 

[ArmyMatt]

ArmyMatt

Paul said that bishops and even deacons should be blameless. Elsewhere he has said that he and others did behave blamelessly on a visit to back up his preaching of the gospel, which is the doctrine of theosis, so I think we can assume that whatever heights of spirituality can be reached, the greatest apostle reached it.

We have this from Fr John Romanides:

"Theoretically, the clergy is supposed to be elected from among the faithful who have reached illumination or glorification. The historical outline of the process, whereby it became customary to elect bishops who had not reached the spiritual experience of which dogmas are a verbal expression, is described by Saint Symeon the New Theologian (d. 1042), recognized as one of the greatest Fathers of the Church. This means that his historical analysis is part of the Orthodox Church's self-understanding.
The three stages of perfection are three stages of spiritual understanding and, at one time, existed in each community. This is comparable to having in each community university students, graduate students, and professors. This would be the case when religious leaders are at the higher levels of illumination. However, it is possible that the religious leaders may not be spiritually at the level of the students.
The outcome of the collapse among the clergy in the spiritual life and understanding thus far described, was the rise of an ascetic movement parallel to the Episcopal communities. This became the monastic movement, which preserved the prophetic and apostolic tradition of spirituality and theology. When the custom prevailed that bishops were recruited mostly from monasticism, the ancient tradition of bishops as masters in spirituality and theology was greatly restored, due to the very powerful influence of Saint Symeon the New Theologian. This restoration was so strong that it gave the East Roman Churches the strength to not only survive the dissolution and disappearance of the Empire, but also to keep spirituality and theology at a surprisingly high level during the Ottoman occupation of the four East Roman Patriarchates, right down to the so-called "Greek" revolution. Fr John Romanides" FRANKS, ROMANS, FEUDALISM, AND DOCTRINE Part 2

Here is another from Saint Gregory of Sinai. There is only one state where ones speech can always be filled with grace which also answers on another point you refuted.

“According to St. Paul (cf. Rom. 15:16), you “minister” the Gospel only when, having yourself participated in the light of Christ, you can pass it on actively to others. Then you sow the Logos like a divine seed in the fields of your listeners’ souls. ‘Let your speech be always filled with grace’, says St Paul (Col. 4:6), ‘seasoned’ with divine goodness. Then it will impart grace to those who listen to you with faith. Elsewhere St. Paul, calling the teachers tillers and their pupils the field they till (cf. II Tim. 2:6), wisely presents the former as ploughers and sowers of the divine Logos and the latter as the fertile soil, yielding a rich crop of virtues. True ministry is not simply a celebration of sacred rites; it also involves participation in divine blessings and the communication of these blessings to others.”

“should be” doesn’t mean “required to be.”

and Fr John in the quote you say says that the students (not bishops) could be more spiritually attuned than the religious leaders. which means attaining theosis isn’t a requirement.

and lastly, participating in the Light of Christ also doesn’t mean attaining theosis. plenty of people have who aren’t bishops. so that last quote also doesn’t say it’s a requirement.

 

[bmjackson]

and Fr John in the quote you say says that the students (not bishops) could be more spiritually attuned than the religious leaders. which means attaining theosis isn’t a requirement.

He was meaning it would be a bad thing or nonsense.

participating in the Light of Christ also doesn’t mean attaining theosis.

Being in illumination is anticipating in the light of Christ so not far from theosis but when it comes with an instruction to always having your speech filled with grace, it has to mean the next stage as that is not a part of illumination which is not sinlessness yet.

 

[Nathaniel Red]

You are saying that apostle Paul was not in the state of Theosis and therefore that puts a doubt of anyone reaching that state which is nonsense. He got things badly wrong when he thought it was the devil saying to him not to go up to Jerusalem when in fact it was the Holy Spirit. A mistake not a sin.

No, im not saying that at all. I see it where there are different levels of theosis, levels upon the divine ladder which are higher and lower. Laymen have theosis when they pray. Then monastics have a deeper theosis by ridding their passions. Then saints have even deeper theosis when they look beyond the veil of heaven and earth and come back with a shining face, moreso when their body is glorified. Saints in the afterlife have great levels of theosis, but even greater after the second coming when they become god fully.

A mistake is a sin. Orthodox pray for forgiveness of sins voluntary and involuntary, committed in knowledge or in ignorance.

Though that specific "mistake" of thinking the holy spirit was the devil actually im not sure it was since many monks say you should ignore holy visions, and that if it was from God, he'd find a way to let you know for certain, and either way God would reward your care. What verse is it?

 

[ArmyMatt]

He was meaning it would be a bad thing or nonsense.



Being in illumination is anticipating in the light of Christ so not far from theosis but when it comes with an instruction to always having your speech filled with grace, it has to mean the next stage as that is not a part of illumination which is not sinlessness yet.

to your first point, thus not a requirement.

I honestly don’t know what point you are trying to make with your second point.