SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

[Adventist Dissident]

You are adding a lot of words that I did not say. This usually happens when we engage, so I am going to leave you to it. Take care.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

you kind of back hand people a lot and you run when you are confronted. It shows you are not confident in your views.

I’m not running, I will continue to post and defend my views on CF.

I was told to limit engagement with certain posters, so thats what I’m doing.

Take care.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

I’m not running, I will continue to post and defend my views on CF.

I was told to limit engagement with certain posters, so thats what I’m doing.

Take care.

you can do what ever you want, but when you come here make sure you talk about the subject matter and not the people. that is what you did. you hit and ran.

 

[BobRyan]

The SDA church is doing just fine.

Amen! In fact as ChristianityToday pointed out in its Jan 2015 article, the SDA church is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the World - and fastest growing.

 

[BobRyan]

you can do what ever you want, but when you come here make sure you talk about the subject matter and not the people. that is what you did. you hit and ran. that seem to be you style.

That would have been good for this ...

if you think that Believers in Christ, calling for Doctrinal corrections, as the Lord commands in the Scripture, to "test everything and hold fast to what is true" is dark times then, you have a problem. That is rebellion. Obeying the Lord mean doing it when it is uncomfortable and inconvenient and not to your liking. I know you don't like being pushed and questioned but it is for your own good. If you make the adjustments then this problem goes away.. The Bible says "no scripture is of private interpretation" that mean we must examine it publically and commanded. that has been standing order for 2000 years.

 

[BobRyan]

There are people in Jeremiah 4. It was noted before, but you didn't want to look at it.

Because the entire chapter covers several points in time... the point remains only "more so" as noted here -

The 1000 years is the only point for planet Earth where there are no humans, cities are all in ruins, dead bodies are everywhere.

I notice in your post - you also find no other point for Earth where this is the case.

Notice what we find in this thread -- Nothing but a "desolate Earth" left after the appearing of Christ

As was noted for you - before

=====================

And in case assistance is of interest


DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955)

=========================

No one left to bury the dead - so corpses left on the ground and birds consume them.

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”


21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Both OT and NT refer to the corpses left and birds eating dead remains

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.


Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Zeph 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

 

[BobRyan]

Except the Sabbath is not God, but a creation.

Agreed - no such thing as "the Sabbath giveth and the Sabbath taketh away"

ok so you won't play fair and and look at what is actually ment. it is clear you have no desire to discuss or find the truth.

I don't know what you are talking about.

The scripture plainly says that Sabbath will be kept in the 1000 years, that is not in debate,

OK - agreed. . I was just commenting on that one phrase above that you posted.

SDA's use this text to support their claim for sabbath observance. not in debate. what is in debate is weather it is in heaven or on earth

Is 66:22 says the "new Earth" but I am not arguing against heaven in saying it. And the text is not saying "but not in heaven".

"THE POINT" is that instead of being deleted it clearly remains for all eternity.

I don't find a "Sabbath deleted in heaven" text - but if you have one feel free to post it.

BTW I already agree that the prophetic texts in the OT occur in chapters that can later switch context to a different point in time as we saw with Zech 9 already.

Zech 9:
9 Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is righteous and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 And I will eliminate the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
And the bow of war will be eliminated.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the Euphrates River to the ends of the earth.

a lot of Bible students here will admit that
1. NT writers point out that vs 9 applies to Christ's first coming... palm Sunday
2. But vs 10 events did not happen at Christ's first coming. obviously

It is talking about the Jews being gathered from around the world and being brought back to Jerusalem. Which is happening right now.

Vs 22-23 are specific to the New Earth as the text points out for Is 66:22-23

No doubt "other points in time" and in fact entirely different futures for an Israel that did not reject it's Messiah centuries after Isaiah's time - are included.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Amen! In fact as ChristianityToday pointed out in its Jan 2015 article, the SDA church is the 5th largest Christian denomination in the World - and fastest growing.

Most of that growth is outside of North America. I would also suspect that is the same for Europe and Australia. North America is in trouble. if you look at the churches and see who is in them it is mostly Older people . Younger people are not stepping up , there is a gap between the ages of 20 and 50 there is almost no one in the churches. Whole conference are having financial trouble and closing down churches, because there is no one to support them. One College has already been closed, There is talk of even shutting down another one in the US, because the number of students is nearly half of what it used to be. So go right ahead and pat your self on the back but it is a delusion to say there is not a problem, deal with reality at least try.

 

[BobRyan]

Most of that growth is outside of North America.

It's a world wide denomination - I readily admit that - and the Gospel commission of Matt 28 is not merely "go into all North America" as I am sure we both agree.

 

[ewq1938]

I don't find a "Sabbath deleted in heaven" text - but if you have one feel free to post it.

Not deleted but fulfilled and replaced with something even greater.


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

The Sabbath was one of many things that were shadows of things to come which means they would be fulfilled and replaced with something much greater.

 

[ewq1938]

Most of that growth is outside of North America. I would also suspect that is the same for Europe and Australia. North America is in trouble. if you look at the churches and see who is in them it is mostly Older people . Younger people are not stepping up , there is a gap between the ages of 20 and 50 there is almost no one in the churches. Whole conference are having financial trouble and closing down churches, because there is no one to support them. One College has already been closed, There is talk of even shutting down another one in the US, because the number of students is nearly half of what it used to be. So go right ahead and pat your self on the back but it is a delusion to say there is not a problem, deal with reality at least try.

What are the doctrinal differences between your version of SDA and the other SDA's in the thread?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Agreed - no such thing as "the Sabbath giveth and the Sabbath taketh away"



I don't know what you are talking about.



OK - agreed. . I was just commenting on that one phrase above that you posted.



Is 66:22 says the "new Earth" but I am not arguing against heaven in saying it. And the text is not saying "but not in heaven".

"THE POINT" is that instead of being deleted it clearly remains for all eternity.

I don't find a "Sabbath deleted in heaven" text - but if you have one feel free to post it.

BTW I already agree that the prophetic texts in the OT occur in chapters that can later switch context to a different point in time as we saw with Zech 9 already.

Zech 9:
9 Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is righteous and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 And I will eliminate the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
And the bow of war will be eliminated.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the Euphrates River to the ends of the earth.

a lot of Bible students here will admit that
1. NT writers point out that vs 9 applies to Christ's first coming... palm Sunday
2. But vs 10 events did not happen at Christ's first coming. obviously



Vs 22-23 are specific to the New Earth as the text points out for Is 66:22-23

.

not sure what you are saying in Zach 9, it is clearly talking about Jerusalem on Earth, not the new Jerusalem come down out of heaven . so what is your point?

Now to Isa 66:22-23. the text is referring to Isa 65 and the New Heaven & New Earth talked about there. He is saying that the children of Israel will be permanate just Like the New Heaven & New Earth. He is not saying they exist at the same time.

 

[BobRyan]

not sure what you are saying in Zach 9, it is clearly talking about Jerusalem on Earth, .

Zech 9:9-10 -- is clearly an example of a prophetic statement where two verses right next to each other have different contexts. Just as we see in Is 66:22-23 as compared to other verses in Is 66.

I don't see that changing.

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Lev 23 annual Sabbaths "shadow sabbath's" predicting the death of Christ ended when the "sacrifices and offerings" that they were given in - ended Heb 10:4-12. Gen 2:1-3 is when "Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27 - as Ex 20:11 points out. No sacrifices and offerings then.

And nothing in Col 2 say "Sabbath for all eternity in New Earth - but deleted in heaven"

 

[BobRyan]

I noted I was going to look at all the texts regarding the abyss in Revelation to see its usage.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the abyss and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Again we see the notion of something coming up out of the abyss.

Nothing there indicates this is not on Earth - everything there seems to have immediate access to Earth.
My point was that we see Earth desolated for that 1000 years and saints taken to haven so as Rev 20 says that leaves satan in a condition with no access to "the nations" here on Earth. Give it any name you like. It's the same point.

 

[ewq1938]

Nothing there indicates this is not on Earth - everything there seems to have immediate access to Earth.

That isn't possible. The pit is in the Earth and satan will be locked inside of it. Neither he nor his angels will have any access to the surface of the Earth and yes, the Earth will be populated by a massive amount of mortal humans. That's why satan is imprisoned inside the pit, to keep him away from them. I wrote this awhile ago to prove all of that:



There is also no scripture ever showing Christ or angels taking the changed, immortal saints from the Earth to the 3rd heaven. All related scriptures show them with Christ on the Earth reigning the nations with a rod of iron. That wouldn't be needed if none of the nations were alive.


In no second coming passage is there a global slaughter of mortal people. Again, Revelation 2 and 19 are clear that there is smiting and killings written with present tense verbs but both speak of a rule over the nations using a future tense verb which proves after the slaying and killing of the second coming, there is a peaceful rule over mortals not targeted for death at the second coming.



Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite(AORIST tense verb with PRESENT tense meaning) the nations: and he shall rule(FUTURE tense verb) them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth(PRESENT tense verb) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Here rule/poimaino is in the FUTURE tense meaning it will happen at some point AFTER the second coming and battle of Armageddon while treadeth/pateo is written in the PRESENT tense meaning it is happening during this second coming and slaying. This proves the Premill position because indeed there is a future rule of people who were not slain during the second coming that Christ and his saints will rule over.


A second witness to this:

Rev 2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

That is the second coming. Everything we read of next comes after the second coming:

Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

After "the end" comes, there is given power over the nations to those that are overcomers which naturally includes those who "are alive and remain" at the second coming. They will be given power over the nations after Christ has returned not before it.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

After the second coming and after "the end" will the overcomers be given power over the nations, ruling them with a rod of iron. That proves the rod of iron rule over the nations for a thousand years does not even start until Christ has returned and has given overcomers this power to rule over the nations.



Verb tenses are very important and should never be ignored. If I said, "I'm at the store buying (present tense verb) the ingredients for Spaghetti so I can cook (future tense verb) Spaghetti for you." No one should think I was cooking Spaghetti in the store. Clearly the buying is at a different time than the cooking. It's the same with the events of Revelation 19. There are verbs there in the present tense regarding smiting and treading which are violent actions and they take place during that battle. There is another event mentioned there about ruling over people but it is written in the future tense proving it happens AFTER the violent events. The ruling is not happening during the violent events of the second coming and the battle of Armageddon. Furthermore the Greek word for "rule" means to take care as a Shepherd would so the rule is peaceful which makes sense. There is a battle and a lot of killing, then non-military/civilian survivors are cared for in a Shepherding sense. That happened in wars the United States were in where after WW2 was over, we actually helped Germany and Japan rebuild.

 

[The Liturgist]

What are the doctrinal differences between your version of SDA and the other SDA's in the thread?

Indeed, a point by point comparison would be very enlightening.

 

[tall73]

Because the entire chapter covers several points in time... the point remains only "more so" as noted here -

The section follows right after the other, and similarly relates the effects of the judgment the Lord carried out on the nations at that time. And there are people there.

You pointed out the following:

DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Explain how the above section is separate context wise from the immediately following verses. It even says "for thus says the Lord" noting that the next portion flows from what was just said:

Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken; I have purposed; I have not relented, nor will I turn back.”
Jer 4:29 At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them.
Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what do you mean that you dress in scarlet, that you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold, that you enlarge your eyes with paint? In vain you beautify yourself. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life.
Jer 4:31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, “Woe is me! I am fainting before murderers.”


Then you reference:


No one left to bury the dead - so corpses left on the ground and birds consume them.

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Both OT and NT refer to the corpses left and birds eating dead remains

But this contrasts with the quote you made from Jeremiah 4:25 which says all the birds of the sky had fled.

Moreover, carrion birds gathering where there are dead bodies is not not unique to this time period.

Then you note:

Jer 25:33
“Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

But you again ignore the context which lists the various nations involved, and they are those that God judged at the time when Judah was judged, and then Babylon, the cities of the Philistines, Edom, Tyre, etc.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.

The whole section is a judgment on Egypt, and its leader. And you cut out the very next verses which show that there are still people to react to the downfall of Egypt:

Eze 32:9 “I will trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries that you have not known.
Eze 32:10 I will make many peoples appalled at you, and the hair of their kings shall bristle with horror because of you, when I brandish my sword before them. They shall tremble every moment, every one for his own life, on the day of your downfall.

 

[BobRyan]

The section follows right after the other, and similarly relates the effects of the judgment the Lord carried out on the nations at that time. And there are people there.

In "that part" of the chapter..

You pointed out the following:
DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins
Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Which is pretty much a "bust" for the idea that in the vs 23-26 context "people are still there"

Explain how the above section is separate context

I already show how this works as in the example for Zech 9 where vs 10 is 'immediately following" vs 9.

BTW I already agree that the prophetic texts in the OT occur in chapters that can later switch context to a different point in time as we saw with Zech 9 already.

Zech 9:
9 Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion!
Shout in triumph, daughter of Jerusalem!
Behold, your king is coming to you;
He is righteous and endowed with salvation,
Humble, and mounted on a donkey,
Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
10 And I will eliminate the chariot from Ephraim
And the horse from Jerusalem;
And the bow of war will be eliminated.
And He will speak peace to the nations;
And His dominion will be from sea to sea,
And from the Euphrates River to the ends of the earth.

a lot of Bible students here will admit that
1. NT writers point out that vs 9 applies to Christ's first coming... palm Sunday
2. But vs 10 events did not happen at Christ's first coming. obviously

 

[ewq1938]

DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Which is pretty much a "bust" for the idea that in the vs 23-26 context "people are still there"

Jer 4:19 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
Jer 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
Jer 4:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Jer 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.
Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
Jer 4:29 The whole city shall flee for the noise of the horsemen and bowmen; they shall go into thickets, and climb up upon the rocks: every city shall be forsaken, and not a man dwell therein.
Jer 4:30 And when thou art spoiled, what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thou make thyself fair; thy lovers will despise thee, they will seek thy life.
Jer 4:31 For I have heard a voice as of a woman in travail, and the anguish as of her that bringeth forth her first child, the voice of the daughter of Zion, that bewaileth herself, that spreadeth her hands, saying, Woe is me now! for my soul is wearied because of murderers.

By isolating a handful of verses and not reading or presenting the entire passage in context, you have missed that there are many people mentioned. Some fleeing, some coming on horses, some with bows, people despising others and wanting to kill them.

Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

This is clearly a localized area that had no men and no birds. It is not global because many people are mentioned in verses 29-31.