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SDA Basic Belief 27: God Will Give the Earth to Satan’s Angels

tall73

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details matter

Now let's look at the next text in Revelation that references the abyss for details:

Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the abyss will make war on them and conquer them and kill them

The beast rises from the abyss. This continues the imagery of a pit introduced earlier.

Any comments on these details?
 
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BobRyan

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Now let's look at the next text in Revelation that references the abyss for details:

Rev 11:7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the abyss will make war on them and conquer them and kill them

The beast rises from the abyss. This continues the imagery of a pit introduced earlier.

Any comments on these details?

Another great example of not saying "put back in". However you are not even in Rev 20 at all -- maybe you have given up on Rev 20 and the 1000 year millennium??

But you are continuing apparently on your own theme of "still this is on Earth" -- it appears.

I thought your whole point was "any place but Earth" for Satan during this period where there are no humans on Earth, only cities in ruins, dead bodies not buried... hills moving back and forth/trembling.

Is your point that there is a Greek non-Earth domain right under the Earth???
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
Jer 4 say no humans left on Earth - only ruined cities and dead bodies.
Rev 19 makes the same case "The rest were killed"

Whether there are people or not on the earth does not make the earth the abyss.

It makes it a desolate prison house for Satan where he has no access at all to the nations -- since as Jer 4 and Rev 19 point out - no humans on Earth.

3 and he threw him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.

As I stated earlier

Your statement above amounts to "whether or not he has no access at all to the nations in the case of a desolate Earth - does not make a desolate earth the place where Satan has no access to the nations in vs 3"


This Earth as a desolate pit - given these two points below.
Saints are taken to heaven at the Rev 19 appearing of Christ
Nothing but a "desolate Earth" left after the appearing of Christ
 
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BobRyan

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No one said it was God. So what is your point.

You took "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" and turned it into "the Sabbath giveth and the Sabbath taketh away" in one of your posts. I think that person was responding to your apparently swapping out the term "LORD" and replacing it with "Sabbath" in Job 1:21.
 
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BobRyan

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Whether there are people or not on the earth does not make the earth the abyss. The usage of abyss was already defined in Revelation and is not equivalent to the earth. Nor does Rev. 19 say anything about the earth being the abyss.

But as for Jeremiah 4 the context was pointed out to you and you didn't address it. You have not shown how it relates to the time period of Rev. 20.

The 1000 years is the only point for planet Earth where there are no humans, cities are all in ruins, dead bodies are everywhere.

I notice in your post - you also find no other point for Earth where this is the case.

Notice what we find in this thread -- Nothing but a "desolate Earth" left after the appearing of Christ

As was noted for you - before

=====================

And in case assistance is of interest


DESOLATE Earth with hills "moving" and cities left in ruins

Jer 4:
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.


Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void;
And to the heavens, and they had no light. (NASB 1955)

=========================

No one left to bury the dead - so corpses left on the ground and birds consume them.

Rev 19
17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.


21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Both OT and NT refer to the corpses left and birds eating dead remains

Jer 25:33
Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.


Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.

Zeph 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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Agreed - no such thing as "the Sabbath giveth and the Sabbath taketh away"
o iook at what is actually ment. The scripture plainly says that Sabbath will be kept in the 1000 years, that is not in debate, SDA's use this text to support their claim for sabbath observance. not in debate. what is in debate is weather it is in heaven or on earth

Isa 66:20-24

20 Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the Lord out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the Lord, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. 21 And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

22 “For as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I will make shall remain before Me,” says the Lord,
“So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass
That from one New Moon to another,
And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord.

24 “And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men

Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.
They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”

So what do we have .....
1. Children of Israel... bring them out of the nation
2. To the holy mountian
3. make them pries and Levites
4. They will be permanent and remain, just like the New Heaven & Earth
5. All flesh come and worship
6. All will look at the courpes
7. they shall be Abhorred by all men

Now tell me BoB where in that passage do you see any reference to Heaven all of this takes place on the Earth. It is talking about the Jews being gathered from around the world and being brought back to Jerusalem. Which is happening right now. it is not complete, but the process has started. That is on earth, not in heaven.

Show us where you see it other wise.
 
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The Liturgist

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You took "the Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away" and turned it into "the Sabbath giveth and the Sabbath taketh away" in one of your posts. I think that person was responding to your apparently swapping out the term "LORD" and replacing it with "Sabbath" in Job 1:21.

That’s correct, it just freaked me out a bit @IceDragon but since that is obviously not your view, please disregard my reply as irrelevant or moot. God bless you @icedragon101 , and I love what you are doing; I’ve been wanting to meet a reforming Adventist for months on these forums, and its a real pleasure to engage with you @icedragon101
 
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tall73

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Another great example of not saying "put back in". However you are not even in Rev 20 at all -- maybe you have given up on Rev 20 and the 1000 year millennium??

I am looking at the places where abyss is referenced in Revelation, because your explanation in chapter 20 doesn't match the details of the other texts. In these earlier references the abyss is a pit which things come out of, for which there is a key, etc.

When we see the earlier instances we see the parallels in Chapter 20. We will get there, but you claimed to want to look at details.

But you are continuing apparently on your own theme of "still this is on Earth" -- it appears.

I am continuing to look at the details that the abyss is a pit, and that things go up to come out of it. The pit may exit to the earth, but the earth is not a pit. And the things don't start impacting the earth until they come out of the pit.

I thought your whole point was "any place but Earth" for Satan during this period

My point is your are reinterpreting abyss from the other references in Revelation for your interpretation of chapter 20. None of the other references involve a barren earth devoid of people, but the abyss is still there, as a holding place, described as a pit.


where there are no humans on Earth, only cities in ruins, dead bodies not buried... hills moving back and forth/trembling.

The presence of people is unrelated to the meaning of abyss in Revelation, as has been pointed out a number of times by the rest of the context you want to ignore to only look at Rev. 20.

I started interacting with you by quoting your statement:

BobRyan said:

If a desolate Earth with no humans on it is the bottomless pit prison

I then noted the usage which shows that when humans are present and the earth is not yet desolate, the abyss was already described as a place with a key, which is described as a pit, and which things do not impact the earth until they come out of it, etc. This place of holding does not require the elements you state.


Is your point that there is a Greek non-Earth domain right under the Earth???


My point is that the text is describing something that is a storage place of evil powers, and that things can be sent to it, or come out of it. It is described as a pit. And when things come out of it they go up.

Now you have supplied the possibility of a Greek notion. John was not Greek. He is relaying what was shown to him. So whatever notion is portrayed here is not a "Greek" notion alone, but what was inspired.

Whether it is thought to be in the earth, or under the earth, or a different dimension, it is described as a pit like place with a key that things come up out of. It is not described as the earth. And it does not require that the earth be devoid of people or barren for it to be there.
 
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tall73

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Your statement above amounts to "whether or not he has no access at all to the nations in the case of a desolate Earth - does not make a desolate earth the place where Satan has no access to the nations in vs 3"

Or more like if satan is in the abyss it doesn't matter if there are people on the earth or not because he then cannot impact them. He is in a holding pit. And it is sealed over him.

Abyss was already defined in the book as a pit. If satan is there he cannot harm. You noted it earlier in your own analysis:

BobRyan said:

The term as used in Rev appears to imply that:

1. They do no harm to anyone while in the pit
2. The pit is for confining/trapping/holding
3. All the damage done in relation to it – is only done once the fallen angels are out of it.



The abyss is a pit, has a key to it, etc. and things come up out of it. It was present when the earth was not desolate.

There not being people on the earth, if granted, does not suddenly make it a pit, or make it part of something already described as a different from it, which was present when there were people on the earth.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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That’s correct, it just freaked me out a bit @IceDragon but since that is obviously not your view, please disregard my reply as irrelevant or moot. God bless you @icedragon101 , and I love what you are doing; I’ve been wanting to meet a reforming Adventist for months on these forums, and its a real pleasure to engage with you @icedragon101
reform needs to be done. the SDA a church would grow exponentially if it reformed.
 
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tall73

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The 1000 years is the only point for planet Earth where there are no humans, cities are all in ruins, dead bodies are everywhere.

There are people in Jeremiah 4. It was noted before, but you didn't want to look at it.

Jer 4:29 At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them.
Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what do you mean that you dress in scarlet, that you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold, that you enlarge your eyes with paint? In vain you beautify yourself. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life.
Jer 4:31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, “Woe is me! I am fainting before murderers.”
 
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tall73

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However you are not even in Rev 20 at all

I noted I was going to look at all the texts regarding the abyss in Revelation to see its usage.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the abyss and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.

Again we see the notion of something coming up out of the abyss.
 
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The Liturgist

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reform needs to be done. the SDA a church would grow exponentially if it reformed.

I think ecumenical engagement with mainline Christian churches and a more nuanced view of EGW’s writings, which would commend her as a prophet specifically on the grounds of her conversion of the majority of the Adventists to Trinitarianism, while allowing members to evaluate her writings as edifying and interpret them their own way, and also admit the possibility of other prophets arising in the future, would really help; it would alienate no one from the church while removing some of the major issues. Also if the SDA declared worship on Sunday and other days of the week was not sinful provided one worshipped on Saturday, thus keeping the Sabbath, and commended those churches which do worship on both Saturday and other days of the week, I could join myself. I also think the denominational polity needs to be reformed.
 
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The SDA church is doing just fine.
it is falling apart, because of these problems. I just talked with your pastor 3 weeks ago and was discussing some of the problems with in the church right now. He said "it is really dark times right now"
 
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I think ecumenical engagement with mainline Christian churches and a more nuanced view of EGW’s writings, which would commend her as a prophet specifically on the grounds of her conversion of the majority of the Adventists to Trinitarianism, while allowing members to evaluate her writings as edifying and interpret them their own way, and also admit the possibility of other prophets arising in the future, would really help; it would alienate no one from the church while removing some of the major issues. Also if the SDA declared worship on Sunday and other days of the week was not sinful provided one worshipped on Saturday, thus keeping the Sabbath, and commended those churches which do worship on both Saturday and other days of the week, I could join myself. I also think the denominational polity needs to be reformed.
1.. I have been part of Church's that were open to christian influence from the outside best church I was ever part of.

2. As far as Ellen you are to gracious. As an Adventist I can tell you she has too much influence over the church doctrine. You cannot change the doctrine, and cannot obey the command to "test everything and hold fast to what is true, with out coming into conflict with the prophets authority. Every things she adds can be replicated without her by other scholars. in fact many people believer her writings were wiritten by other scholars. She locks into place every error they make, by her prophetic endorsement.

3. the issue of sunday worship needs to be relooked at, it was established to difine the differenc between Jews and Christians, not as a replacemet for the Sabbath and not as a second Sabbath. The abandonment of the Sabbath needs to be revisitged. it was for political reason not spiritual reasons. I still believe their conlusion about it becoming the mark of the beast has merit., becasue 666 applies only to Gods man (1 Kgs 10:14; 2 Chr 9:13) or his people (Ezra 2:13). The establisment of the Lord day and The abondment of the sabbath was motivated by the desire of the Emperor to unite his political kingdom with Christianity. I believe the SDA theroy that this will happen again has merit. and the church must wait for christ rule in the 1000 years and not set the church up by political force.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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it is falling apart, because of these problems. I just talked with your pastor 3 weeks ago and was discussing some of the problems with in the church right now. He said "it is really dark times right now"
It is really dark times right now. We have a lot of people claiming they are SDA's when it appears their life mission is to tear down the church. We have free will, but if I wasn't SDA that's not where I would invest my time when we are called to lead non-believers to Christ. Dark times indeed in lots of directions, but it will all sort itself out when Jesus comes.
 
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It is really dark times right now. We have a lot of people claiming they are SDA's when it appears their life mission is to tear down the church. We have free will, but if I wasn't SDA that's not where I would invest my time when we are called to lead non-believers to Christ. Dark times indeed in lots of directions, but it will all sort itself out when Jesus comes.
if you think that Believers in Christ, calling for Doctrinal corrections, as the Lord commands in the Scripture, to "test everything and hold fast to what is true" is dark times then, you have a problem. That is rebellion. Obeying the Lord mean doing it when it is uncomfortable and inconvenient and not to your liking. I know you don't like being pushed and questioned but it is for your own good. If you make the adjustments then this problem goes away.. The Bible says "no scripture is of private interpretation" that mean we must examine it publically and commanded. that has been standing order for 2000 years.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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if you think that Believers in Christ, calling for Doctrinal corrections, as the Lord commands in the Scripture, to "test everything and hold fast to what is true" is dark times then, you have a problem. That is rebellion. Obeying the Lord mean doing it when it is uncomfortable and inconvenient and not to your liking. I know you don't like being pushed and questioned but it is for your own good. If you make the adjustments then this problem goes away.. The Bible says "no scripture is of private interpretation" that mean we must examine it publically and commanded. that has been standing order for 2000 years.
You are adding a lot of words that I did not say. This usually happens when we engage, so I am going to leave you to it. Take care.
 
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