Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Timtofly]

That means He comes after the thousand years. Peter said very clearly in 2 Peter 3:13 that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of His second coming. If the new heavens and new earth aren't ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming then 2 Peter 3:13 would make no sense.

Yes it makes sense. It means they still wait in patience for those 1000 years, even after fire destroys this current heaven and earth. There is a new heaven and earth at the beginning of the 1000 years, and it is not the NHNE of Revelation 21. There was a new heaven and earth after Noah's Flood, still not the NHNE of Revelation 21. 2 Peter 3 makes plenty of sense that there will be a future 1000 year reign of Christ. Those first century readers have waited patiently for 1900+ years. Since you do not specify even your own frame of time, is waiting 3000 years out of the question? Does it really matter to you when the Second Coming happens? If you are not dead set on 2000 years, why make a fuss if the Second Coming happens and there is still 1000 years left. Amil really do not seem to care the length of time we have to wait.

Noah lived through heaven and earth being destroyed, and he has been waiting longer than 2000 years. He waited 600 years for the destruction of the Flood. People today denying a future 1000 years, compared to what Noah went through, should not be quick to judge any one.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, that is not a temporary kingdom. It would simply be the first thousand years of the everlasting kingdom. The kingdom is never temporary, it is always everlasting and has been everlasting from day 1 when the Father initially gave it to Jesus 2000 years ago. It just hasn't physically come into being yet. That involves the 2nd coming happening first.

I have debated JWs a time or two in the past, in regards to whether or not Jesus is God. I seem to recall one of them also telling me that it is clear to them that I was interpreting it wrongly. The point being, so what if it is crystal clear to you that I'm allegedly misinterpreting it wrongly, it was also apparently crystal clear to the JW that I was interpreting wrongly that Jesus is God, yet that didn't even remotely make me the one wrong and the JW right, just because it was clear to him that I was interpreting those things wrong.

I only used this example in order to try and make my point. I just wanted to use an example we both can relate to, that even you would have to agree that just because it was clear to the JW that I was interpreting those things wrong, that didn't automatically make me wrong and him right then.

You are trying to force a square peg into a round hole again. Because of your faulty opinion that the new heavens and new earth is in fact your supposed future millennium (even though Revelation shows it to come after) you wrong try to make your millennium temporal and eternal at the one time. This is both nonsensical and ridiculous at the one time. This shows the absurdity of the Premil position. They make it up as they go even though it conflicts with the text in question and multiple others.

Do you realize how contradictory this is? In one breath you talk about the absolute certainty of a literal 1000 years and the next you call it an eternal reign. This epitomizes the total confusion that calls itself Premil. While they desperately want their kingdom to be pristine, glorious, incorrupt and eternal ( just like the Amil kingdom), the reality is, their theology produces a mongrel state full of coexisting glory and corruption, life and death, the glorified state and mortality, perfect peace and ongoing blood-letting. This reasoning produces an absolute mess.

Premil hermeneutics are totally inconsistent and contradictory. Its approach to symbolic and apocalyptic passages is literal, and their approach to plain, literal and straightforward passages is symbolic. They relate to time what relates to eternity; they relate to eternity what relates to time. They attribute to antichrist what pertains to Christ; they attribute to Christ what pertains to antichrist.

 

[Timtofly]

Also, where is the scripture that clearly teaches that there will be more than one future day when a mass bodily resurrection occurs? How do you interpret this passage:

Other than Matthew 27 when will there be any mass resurrection from graves?

Do you not force that into Scripture even though not spelled out?

 

[DavidPT]

You know that Amils believe He is reigning now and will do eternally. He is simply going to "shepherd" mankind at the end. That is what the word "rule" means. Jesus judges the living and the dead when He comes. Scripture knows nothing of resurrection days or judgment days. That is a Premil innovation.

What I can't get ironed out is when Amils think the GWTJ begins and how long it lasts since some of you seem to think it happens in eternity?


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I'm pretty sure there is no last day in eternity. Therefore, if Amils insist that the GWTJ happens at the 2nd coming, it has to involve 24 hours or less, like I have been saying all along, in order to agree with this verse. It is ludicrous that the GWTJ can begin and finish within 24 hours or less, though. Until the last day ends first, assuming Amil in regards to John 12:48, it is still this present age in the meantime. Once again, this verse says this happens in the last day and that there is no last day in eternity unless there is a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

What I can't get ironed out is when Amils think the GWTJ begins and how long it lasts since some of you seem to think it happens in eternity?


John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

I'm pretty sure there is no last day in eternity. Therefore, if Amils insist that the GWTJ happens at the 2nd coming, it has to involve 24 hours or less, like I have been saying all along, in order to agree with this verse. It is ludicrous that the GWTJ can begin and finish within 24 hours or less, though. Until the last day ends first, assuming Amil in regards to John 12:48, it is still this present age in the meantime. Once again, this verse says this happens in the last day and that there is no last day in eternity unless there is a thousand years and a little season post the 2nd coming.

There is no difficulty here for Amil, quite the opposite. There is instead solid strong support for that position. All that is produced by passages like this is mega problems for Premil, as it is exposed by the climactic detail pertaining to it. It totally disallows the whole idea of 2 resurrection days and 2 judgment days. The reality is: "the last day" relates to the coming of Christ and instigates eternity. It ushers mankind into the eternal realm. It sees a general judgment of mankind. Both the righteous and wicked are raised and judged on this same final day.

You create multiple days after the last day. That is a total and utter contradiction of itself. This is common with Premil. There is nothing logical about Premil. Whatever angle you look at it, Premil crumbles at the seams when scrutinized by Holy Writ and simple logic.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Interesting posts today.

And DavidPT...

1Co 15:51-53
(51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
(52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Rev 11:15
(15) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 10:6-7
(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
(7) But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

At the sound of the LAST TRUMP, the Elect will be rapture out (changed) along with the dead in Christ to meet with the Lord in the Air. This is the 7th trumpet sound. There won't be no more "time" after this. it will usher us into the GWT judgment, so it won't be 24 hours long judgment. Remember, there should be time no longer. Time has no meaning. You believe there must be time after the sounding of the 7th angel (Last Trump) because you want to see a physical 1,000 years of the millennial kingdom after this. Sorry, but nope, the millennial kingdom already started at Pentecost and continued until all Elects are secured by the witnessing of the Gospel and Satan loosening for a little season used by God to test the faithfulness of His Church prior to Second Coming.

 

[power1]

The trib involves wrath, not God's wrath, satan's wrath. After all, doesn't Revelation 12 indicate that satan is come down to the earth having great wrath?

Except it says the wrath of God. Nice try.

1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.

5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

 

[power1]

I'm pretty sure he thinks it involves real years. Even the thousand years involve real years to him, just not a literal thousand years. Amils typically have the thousand years beginning at the cross.

So they are real years starting thousands of years ago!? Did they not think this out?

Apparently, we are still in that same thousand year period, assuming Amil. Which means it has been involving real years, close to 2000 years thus far. Still assuming Amil, once the thousand years expire, thus satan's little season begins, that involves real years since it would mean until the 2nd coming happens in the end of this age.

So the years are real, and started thousands of years ago and we are still in them! Not too bright. 2000 - 1000 means that the 1000 years are already an extra thousand years plus.

Still assuming Amil, once Christ returns, everything is fulfilled within 24 hours or less. Which I find ludicrous myself, that Christ only sits upon His throne of glory for 24 hours or less, and that He doesn't even do it on the earth. There is no habitable earth for Him to begin reigning on. Amils have it literally engulfed in fire once Christ returns.

I suppose the child that dies at a hundred years old has to die in the 24 hours too, unless they claim children now die at that age!

 

[power1]

It does Brother.
God has fixed a day...one day.., when he will take his seat to judge , not only the living but also the dead.

Act 17
30 So having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now proclaiming to mankind that all people everywhere are to repent, 31 because He has set a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all people by raising Him from the dead.”

Then that day is after the 1000 years. That is when the dead are raised to be judged! That is if you mean all the people who have ever lived (unsaved). Now if you mean destroy the wicked and in so doing they are judged, well fine, we can have that when Jesus returns right away. You can't have it both ways.

 

[power1]

The tribulation is the wrath of Satan/antichrist against the redeemed and has been ongoing for centuries. The wrath of God is poured out on the wicked and is totally destructive when Jesus comes and cannot be escaped.

Except I think it was 2 posts back I posted verses saying the vials were the wrath of God.

 

[Timtofly]

I've seen this claim before and it is possibly the most ridiculous claim that anyone can possibly make regarding the book of Revelation. It can't be taken seriously.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Who else are "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as" the souls John saw were except for the church?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who else but the church are those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Who else but those in the church would be called "the saints"?

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then there's this:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Who else but those in the church are the saints "that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus"?

Are you talking about a dead church or a living church? The word saint alone is not the point. Context is key. Out of those verses quoted, which ones are talking about those already physically dead? Which ones are actually talking about redeemed Jews? Are you a physically redeemed Jew? Were Jesus' original 12 disciples redeemed Jews, or converted Gentiles? Are you dead in Christ? Are you currently physically in Paradise? When Christ appears are you really going to stay on earth, or enter your eternal home in Paradise? Are your own righteous works getting you into heaven? Or do you have to be killed, for confessing Christ to stay on this earth? Instead of just posting verses, what is the context of those verses?


Is under the alter on earth or heaven? I would say both places, because you are still alive on earth, but symbolically under the alter, because you are covered by the Atonement of the Cross. You still have to physically die to join the rest of the church, or changed, no? Your the one who denies God can place resurrected physical bodies on earth, yet it happened in Matthew 27:

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Did this take place on earth, or heaven? Were they saints, or church, or both? Since it does not say Jerusalem is this symbolic, and literally did not physically happen? You claim they must die again physically. Why? If it happened in heaven, who were the many who saw their bodies?

According to the verses, they literally resurrected twice. Or it can be interpreted that when Christ arose He took them to Paradise, and physically. I am not sure how you can deny they actually walked around Jerusalem between the hour Jesus died, until His own resurrection on Sunday. The earthquake that was mentioned happened when Jesus died. They had bodies, and were not ghosts.

That was the beginning of the age to come, where these particular saints were physically raised, were like the angels, no longer could procreate, and they never physically died again. They were the whole of OT saints. It happened all over the earth. Jerusalem was just one of the places many of them were actually seen and written about. Jesus did not have to physically be at each grave sight, but on the Cross, He set free all the OT saints from sheol, not just some and the others were left. It was a complete fulfillment of the last day resurrection. Yet only saints were resurrected and taken to Paradise. And this was before Pentecost when the Holy Spirit was given to "the church".

 

[sovereigngrace]

Except I think it was 2 posts back I posted verses saying the vials were the wrath of God.

The error you make is you cannot prove a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation followed by a 3rd coming. That is because it doesn't exist. You can search the Scripture but you will never find it. That is why you have nothing to present.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well do state what you believe. I have answered so many from the few other posters that do say this, I guess you need to be clear how you differ with them.

I've been telling you what I believe all along. I don't need to be clear. I've been clear. You need to pay closer attention. None of us believe that the thousand years occur in one 24 hour day. You should know what the people you're debating with believe. It makes no sense to tell someone else they're wrong without even knowing what they believe and why.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Are you talking about a dead church or a living church?

I was responding to a claim that the church isn't mentioned at all after Revelation 4. So, I was talking about those in the church who are still alive. And I gave several verses after Revelation 4 showing them still alive on the earth.

The word saint alone is not the point. Context is key.

And you miss the context on a regular basis.

Out of those verses quoted, which ones are talking about those already physically dead?

None. They all referred to those who are still alive. Who else but the church are those who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"? That is a clear description of Christians and Christians are the ones who are in the church. This is a no-brainer. Only doctrinal bias could prevent someone from seeing something so obvious.

Which ones are actually talking about redeemed Jews?

None are specifically referring to redeemed Jews. They all are referring to Christians in general, whether Jew or Gentile.

The saints and those Are you a physically redeemed Jew? Were Jesus' original 12 disciples redeemed Jews, or converted Gentiles? Are you dead in Christ? Are you currently physically in Paradise? When Christ appears are you really going to stay on earth, or enter your eternal home in Paradise? Are your own righteous works getting you into heaven? Or do you have to be killed, for confessing Christ to stay on this earth? Instead of just posting verses, what is the context of those verses?

What is this, 20 Questions? My goodness. You tell me who you think are the ones who "keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". I've already made it clear where I stand on these verses, so you don't need to ask me all these questions. Now, you tell me how you interpret those verses instead of asking a bunch of questions I've already answered by what I've already said.

Is under the alter on earth or heaven?

In heaven because they are dead and their souls are in heaven. But, I wasn't talking about them in terms of the church being mentioned after Revelation 4, I was specifically talking about "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were". That is referring to those in the church who are still alive at that point. The claim being made is that the church isn't around on earth at that point, but that is clearly false.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We receive new bodies at the Rapture actually.

Yes, that's right. All believers from all-time will be changed and have immortal bodies when that happens. Where is the scripture which teaches that anyone will be changed to have immortal bodies at any other time than when the rapture occurs?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There we have it. All the child lying with lions, and dying at a hundred years old, and etc etc according to you is just depicting something else. Nice doctrine.

Those descriptions are within passages regarding the eternal new heavens and new earth. But, you try to place their timing within a supposed temporary thousand year time period after the return of Christ instead. Like all Premils, you are not good at discerning the difference between figurative and literal text in scripture. Old Testament prophecies often describe eternity figuratively in a way that people back then could understand since the concept of eternity was foreign to them. That concept was not really understood much at all until Jesus came and the hope of eternal life through faith in Christ came about.

Why would you want to interpret a passage like Isaiah 65:17-25 in such a way that contradicts what John said about the new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21:1-4? He very clearly said there will be no more death when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in. Doesn't that make you want to reconsider how you are interpreting Isaiah 65:20? Why are you content with interpreting Isaiah 65:20 in such a way that contradicts Revelation 21:4?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

That does not include all people that ever lived when He returns of course.

Can you tell me how you interpret the following passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Would you agree that this passage is talking about the day the rapture occurs? Look at verse 10. When else will He "come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe" except on the day the rapture occurs, right? So, what else happens on that day? Paul said Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ". Are any unbelievers excluded there? All unbelievers don't know God and don't obey the gospel, right? So, this passage indicates that on the same day that the rapture occurs, all the wicked will be destroyed. Which lines up with what Jesus taught in Matthew 24:29-39 because He said there that He will come "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and the elect will be gathered at that time while the wicked will all be destroyed just as all the wicked were destroyed by the flood in Noah's day.

So, how can you possibly believe that a 7 year time period occurs after the rapture when scripture teaches that on the same day the rapture occurs (which results in all believers having immortal bodies), the wicked are all destroyed? That doesn't leave any mortals on the earth for a supposed 7 year time period after the rapture nor does it allow for any mortals to populate the earth for 1000 years after that.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

OK, great. So the season is after the 1000 years. I think the poster imagines those years are not real and some sort of fantasy time or whatever.

You're just making a fool of yourself with comments like this. No one here, including me, would try to claim that Satan's little season doesn't refer to a real period of time that will occur.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Still assuming Amil, once Christ returns, everything is fulfilled within 24 hours or less. Which I find ludicrous myself, that Christ only sits upon His throne of glory for 24 hours or less, and that He doesn't even do it on the earth.

David, what is wrong with you? Seriously. How many times now have you been told that Amils don't believe the judgment takes place within 24 hours? And, yet you still say things like this to misrepresent Amil. You should be ashamed of yourself for resorting to blatantly misrepresenting Amil and contradicting what we've told you many times. The judgment takes place in eternity and not within the realm of time. It's ludicrous to think that it would take place in the realm of time. It would take a ridiculously long time to finish judging everyone if that were the case.

There is no habitable earth for Him to begin reigning on. Amils have it literally engulfed in fire once Christ returns.

What is the problem with believing He will judge everyone somewhere besides heaven or earth? That is exactly what is portrayed in Revelation 20:11-15. You believe that is a different judgment, but do you believe that judgment is ludicrous since it clearly doesn't occur in heaven or on earth (since it says heaven and earth flee His presence beforehand)?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If there is a thousand years after the 2nd coming, that is not a temporary kingdom. It would simply be the first thousand years of the everlasting kingdom. The kingdom is never temporary, it is always everlasting and has been everlasting from day 1 when the Father initially gave it to Jesus 2000 years ago. It just hasn't physically come into being yet. That involves the 2nd coming happening first.

Okay, that's how YOU see it, but I don't think all Premils see it that way.

Anyway, do you really think the kingdom we will inherit that was prepared from the foundation of the world would still have sin and death occurring in it? Please explain how that makes sense. I believe the kingdom prepared from the foundation of the world is one that will be perfect and will be completely free of sin and death. And that is what Matthew 25:31-46 indicates. It portrays the wicked being cast into everlasting fire (Matt 25:41) which is exactly what is portrayed in Revelation 20:15 as well. Scripture never teaches that the wicked will be cast into the fire on two completely separate occasions.

I have debated JWs a time or two in the past, in regards to whether or not Jesus is God. I seem to recall one of them also telling me that it is clear to them that I was interpreting it wrongly. The point being, so what if it is crystal clear to you that I'm allegedly misinterpreting it wrongly, it was also apparently crystal clear to the JW that I was interpreting wrongly that Jesus is God, yet that didn't even remotely make me the one wrong and the JW right, just because it was clear to him that I was interpreting those things wrong.

This is obvious, David. You don't need to tell me things like this. We all think our beliefs are crystal clear, but that doesn't change that it's our opinions and not 100% irrefutable facts.

I only used this example in order to try and make my point. I just wanted to use an example we both can relate to, that even you would have to agree that just because it was clear to the JW that I was interpreting those things wrong, that didn't automatically make me wrong and him right then.

Of course. I've told you several times before that while I believe very strongly that my doctrine is correct and yours is not, it's still my opinion and not a fact. If only you would actually remember things that I tell you, then you wouldn't feel the need to tell me things like what you said here.