The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

[LoveGodsWord]

HAPPY SABBATH EVERYONE!

God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

Exodus 20:8-11
[8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)
[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: <WHY?>
[11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT. (from Genesis 2:1-3).

Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God (Gods' 4th commandment). Jesus says that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. Gods' people are in every Church according to the scriptures *Romans 10:16 but the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.*John 4:23-24 according to His Word.

God knew we would forget His 4th commandment and is calling all His people where ever they might by to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions back to the pure Word of God saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. *Revelation 14:7-12. BABYLON has fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird come out of her my people that you be not partakers of her sins, and that you receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.*Revelation 14:7-12; Revelation 18:1-5

God is calling His people where ever they might be to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God to return to His word to worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 6:63; John 17:17.

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May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

GOD'S 4TH COMMANDMENT OR SUNDAY WORSHIP? WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE?

Since no one has yet to provide any scripture to support the following questions, I am putting them up here again in case someone else would like to provide scripture to answer them.

Where is the scripture that says.....

[1]. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

[2]. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

[3]. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

[4]. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day of rest as a memorial of Christs resurrection?

[5]. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

[6]. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day of the week (Sunday) as a holy day?

[7]. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

[8]. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

[9]. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

[10]. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

[11]. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

[12]. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

[13]. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

[14]. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

[15]. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

[16]. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

[17]. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as a holy day?

[18]. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

[19]. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

[20]. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

[21]. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

[22]. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?


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If there is no scripture that says Gods' 4th commandments of the 10 commandments that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) in the new covenant has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a day of rest in honor of the resurrection of Jesus then according to Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9 who are we worshiping; God or man?


HAPPY SABBATH AND HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL! May God bless you as you prayerfully seek him.

Take Care...

 

[Leaf473]

Why would you not apply this same philosophy to the Sabbath? The Sabbath commandment is the only commandment that uses the word “holy” and “blessed” and God told us to Remember. God tells us in the Ten Commandments that He shows mercy for those who love Him and keeps the commandments Exodus 20:6 I don’t think that means 9 out of 10.

I don't apply the same philosophy to the Sabbath for the same reason that I don't apply it to the commandment about wearing mixed fabrics.

If the philosophy is expressed as:
If you love God, you will keep his commandments. Except for the ones that have stopped. You don't have to keep those.

The question immediately becomes, Which ones have stopped?

This idea is implied in the thread title, shadow law or universal law.

The implication is that we can love God and not keep the shadow laws, but if we love God we will keep the universal laws.

The problem I keep running into is that no one seems to be able to say what those shadow laws are. Sure, people will talk about broad categories, such as animal sacrifices or feast days. But no one seems confident about making a list.

Or the universals. Most people will say the ten commandments, yes. But ask about tithing and things become more vague. Ask about specific tithing commandments, and people tend to go silent. That's been my experience.

So hey, this is your chance to clear this up! If you believe you have found a handy tool to separate the shadow laws from the universal laws, please take a few minutes, run through the commandments, and post the results.

I think that would be really great if you would do that!


PS Or would it take more than just a few minutes?

 

[Bob S]

Israel is "us" Bob.

SB wrote:

Why would you not apply this same philosophy to the Sabbath? The Sabbath commandment is the only commandment that uses the word “holy” and “blessed” and God told us to Remember.

Israel WAS not "US" LGW. God didn't give the covenant and its laws to US LGW. God was very specific to whom the laws of the covenant applied. Ex19:5-6

Well all those who believe and follow what Gods' Word says.

Interpreted as we who observe the Israelite's Sabbath. The day that was never given to any other nation or people. The Sabbath that is taken from the ministry that brought ☠ that was written on stone and is no longer Israel's guide and in fact has been done away? 2Cor3:6-11 KJV

If we are not a part of God's Israel we have no part in Gods 'new covenant promise.

Sorry LGW, my Bible doesn't reveal anything about my having to be part of "God's Israel". My Bible tells me by believing Jesus is my Savior and I love others as He loves us we won't even be judged. Jn 5:24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Jesus words to man never required that gentiles to become part of Israel. We are part of the tree that is fed by Him not dead Israel. Again, our requirement is to love our fellow man as Jesus loves all mankind. Jn15:9-14 and 1Jn 3:19-24

The name Israel is only a name given by God to all those who believe and follow God's Word so it is not covenant dependent.

Jesus IS the name the only name. He is God and believing in Him results in our enjoying eternal life. Ephesians 2: 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

Abraham believed and he was not given the name Israel.

 

[BobRyan]

@LoveGodsWord One question I'll throw in is this: Do you ever see the Sabbath "given" to anyone other than Israel of the flesh? (Remember, in the time of Moses, "Israel" was pre-New Testament and thus, of the flesh.)

Mark 2:27 "made for mankind"
Gen 2:1-3 sanctified for man -- before any Jews existed
Ex 20:11 states that its origin is in Gen 2:1-3 not in Exodus 16.
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross
Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

 

[BobRyan]

I beg your pardon SB, you keep using the word "us". It was not us it was Israel. .

until we read this part of the OT and NT as noted below

Mark 2:27 "made for mankind"
Gen 2:1-3 sanctified for man -- before any Jews existed
Ex 20:11 states that its origin is in Gen 2:1-3 not in Exodus 16.
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross
Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Rom 2:26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

As you and I have seen dozens of times before.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I don't apply the same philosophy to the Sabbath for the same reason that I don't apply it to the commandment about wearing mixed fabrics.

If the philosophy is expressed as:
If you love God, you will keep his commandments. Except for the ones that have stopped. You don't have to keep those.

The question immediately becomes, Which ones have stopped?

This idea is implied in the thread title, shadow law or universal law.

The implication is that we can love God and not keep the shadow laws, but if we love God we will keep the universal laws.

The problem I keep running into is that no one seems to be able to say what those shadow laws are. Sure, people will talk about broad categories, such as animal sacrifices or feast days. But no one seems confident about making a list.

Or the universals. Most people will say the ten commandments, yes. But ask about tithing and things become more vague. Ask about specific tithing commandments, and people tend to go silent. That's been my experience.

So hey, this is your chance to clear this up! If you believe you have found a handy tool to separate the shadow laws from the universal laws, please take a few minutes, run through the commandments, and post the results.

I think that would be really great if you would do that!


PS Or would it take more than just a few minutes?

Mixed fabrics was not in the Ten Commandments, but the Sabbath commandment where we also have the commandments to not worship other gods, vain God’s name, steal, covet, or murder came in the same covenant. It was a covenant of Ten, not Nine. Exodus 34:28

My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Psalms 89:34


From scripture it doesn’t look like the Sabbath commandment ended, just like God promised Exodus 31:16https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+89&version=NKJV

And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. Isaiah 66:23

It is still God’s holy day from before sin Genesis 2:1-3 all throughout scripture and for eternity.


God bless and Happy Sabbath.

 

[BobRyan]

If the philosophy is expressed as:
If you love God, you will keep his commandments. Except for the ones that have stopped. You don't have to keep those.

The question immediately becomes, Which ones have stopped?

Hebrews 10 has the answer to that -- As you and I have seen many times in the past in answer to that same question.

Heb 10:
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Which explains why "do not take God's name in vain" did not get "deleted at the cross" and so also with the others among the Ten Commandments (for example).

A bible detail so incredibly obvious that Bible scholars in almost all denominations admit to it.
(as we see examples like Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well.)

Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.

 

[Bob S]

HAPPY SABBATH EVERYONE!

God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

Exodus 20:8-11
[8], REMEMBER THE SABBATH DAY, TO KEEP IT HOLY. <Why?> Because God made it Holy for mankind and commands us to keep it as a Holy day)

I beg to differ. God made the Sabbath for Israel not mankind. They were to rest and contemplate Creation and God delivering them out of slavery. Sabbath, in no way, was for all mankind. The proof can be found in history. No other nation on Earth ever kept the Seventh-day as a Holy day.

[9], Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work:
[10], But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD THY GOD: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

To whom is God addressing when He gave those words?

<WHY?>
[11], FOR IN SIX DAYS THE LORD MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, THE SEA AND ALL THAT IS IN THEM IS AND RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: WHEREFORE THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH, and HALLOWED IT. (from Genesis 2:1-3).

All for Israel and no one else.

Sunday worship is a teaching and tradition of men that has led many away from God and His Word.

Led many away??? How about providing some proof of that statement. By the way, we do not worship Sunday, we worship on Sunday.

Jesus says that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that lead us away from God to break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. Gods' people are in every Church according to the scriptures *Romans 10:16 but the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.*John 4:23-24 according to His Word.

I surely would not be casting stones concerning the breaking of commandments. I have never met one Sabbath observer that kept from speaking his/her own words or doing his/her own pleasure on the day that was Holy only to the nation of Israel. I believe it was called profaning the Sabbath.

God knew we would forget His 4th commandment

"We"? I believe that to be a supposition. What was never given certainly couldn't be forgotten

and is calling all His people where ever they might by to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions

Trying to keep the Israelite only Sabbath is certainly a man made tradition because we are now under the new and better covenant of grace and not by trying to do the works of keeping a day that has never been given to us.

back to the pure Word of God saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Yes indeed, we are to worship the God of creation and redemption. We don't have to wait for a special day to accomplish doing that. Our lives should be a living testimony of Him who did all of that for all mankind.

God is calling His people where ever they might be to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God to return to His word to worship Him in Spirit and in truth John 6:63; John 17:17.

I know you are referring to all of us that worship God on Sunday. Since there is no command in the new covenant for the commemoration of any special day and we are admonished to assemble, we can choose our assembly time. Heb10: 24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

 

[Leaf473]

Mixed fabrics was not in the Ten Commandments, but the Sabbath commandment where we also have the commandments to not worship other gods, vain God’s name, steal, covet, or murder came in the same covenant. It was a covenant of Ten, not Nine. Exodus 34:28

My covenant I will not break,
Nor alter the word that has gone out of My lips. Psalms 89:34


From scripture it doesn’t look like the Sabbath commandment ended, just like God promised Exodus 31:16

And from one Sabbath to another,
All flesh shall come to worship before Me,” says the Lord. Isaiah 66:23

It is still God’s holy day from before sin Genesis 2:1-3 all throughout scripture and for eternity.


God bless and Happy Sabbath.

Edit: did you do a significant edit to this post? It looks very different from what I remember reading. ??? Or maybe I clicked on the wrong post ???

The law about mixed fabrics is not part of the ten commandments. But it is part of the law. Is it a shadow law or a universal law?

I don't have an issue with the Sabbath commandment. My question is about which laws to keep. It's not a matter of getting past the ten commandments imo. If the teaching you present won't handle every law, then I think there's a problem somewhere.

###########################
This analogy has been buzzing around in my head this morning, so maybe it will help someone if I share it:

Suppose Jane and I were told by the boss to pick all the apples off of an apple tree. And he also said that if we miss a single apple, it's just like we missed all the apples. At least that's what we think he said.

So Jane and I walk out and look up at this tree. Jane says, "It's easy, just reach out and pick an apple."

But I'm looking at this tree that's way higher than we can reach and we don't have a ladder. Maybe we could climb the trunk, but most of the branches are way too small to hold our weight.

I say, "You know, maybe we should go back and ask the boss again. Maybe we missed something."

Jane says, "What's the big deal? Look, I can easily reach another one," as she picks another apple and puts it in the basket.

After a few more apples, Jane adds, "If you're not going to take the easy ones, why would you worry about the hard ones?"

"Didn't the boss say that if you miss even one apple, it's just like we didn't pick any? We both heard that, right? We could spend all day on the low-hanging fruit and it wouldn't do us any good unless we can figure out a way to get the rest of the apples," I say.

Pondering a bit more, I say, "Maybe we didn't hear everything the boss had to say."

##############################
Can you see what I'm saying in the analogy, or do you want me to add an explanation?

 

[BobRyan]

I beg to differ. God made the Sabbath for Israel not mankind.

until we read this part of the OT and NT

Sabbath:
Mark 2:27 "made for mankind"
Gen 2:1-3 sanctified for man -- before any Jews existed
Ex 20:11 states that its origin is in Gen 2:1-3 not in Exodus 16.
Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross
Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

The law about mixed fabrics is not part of the ten commandments.

Agreed. But the simple Bible detail about the Ten Commandments is so easy that both sides admit to the "Ten" remaining" as you and I have seen dozens of times by now -- and is specific to the subject title of this thread.

A bible detail so incredibly obvious that Bible scholars in almost all denominations admit to it.
(as we see examples like Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well.)

Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them

 

[Kilk1]

Mark 2:27 "made for mankind"

The verse doesn't say "mankind" but "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos). While "man" can sometimes mean "mankind," it can also refer just to the Jews. For example, in John 7:22-23, Jesus says the Jews would "circumcise a man [Greek, ánthrōpos] on the Sabbath" (NKJV, emphasis mine). Also, Hebrews 5:1-3 says that every high priest is taken from among "men" (Greek, ánthrōpos) and appointed for "men" (Greek, ánthrōpos) to offer sacrifices for sins, including his own sin. Also, Hebrews 7:28 explains that "the law appoints men [Greek, ánthrōpos] as high priests who have weakness," (WEB, emphasis mine). I'm sure we agree that since these three passages all refer to obsolete practices of the old covenant, which were just for physical Israel, then "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in these three passages actually refers to "the Jews," not "all mankind."

So which one does it mean in Mark 2:27, "mankind" or "Jews"? If we make "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 mean "all mankind," then we'd actually make Jesus contradict Exodus 31:17, Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12, and even the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:15, passages which specify the Sabbath as a covenant sign between God and the physical nation of Israel that was brought out of Egypt. The Sabbath couldn't be a covenant sign between God and Israel if it were already for everyone else anyway, right?

So "man" therefore means the same thing in Mark 2:27 that it means in other places that discuss practices for old covenant Israel, such as John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "man" means specifically "Jews."

Gen 2:1-3 sanctified for man -- before any Jews existed

Many things in Genesis were made for Adam and Eve before they were given--food, the sun and moon for measuring time, etc. The plan of salvation, similarly, existed even before the foundation of the world. Yet such things weren't given till later, right? So the time something exists isn't necessarily the time it's given, and the time the Sabbath was given was at the time of Moses (Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12).

Ex 20:11 states that its origin is in Gen 2:1-3 not in Exodus 16.

And Deuteronomy 5:15 says it also was to be practice because the ones the Ten Commandments were written to were taken out of Egypt. So again, it's being commanded of the Jews, the ones taken out of Egypt, not other nations. While the Sabbath may have been made in Genesis and is one of two reasons the Jews should keep it, it wasn't given until the time of Moses (Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12).

Is 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross

If Isaiah 66:23 proves everyone must keep the Sabbath because it mentions the Sabbath, then the verse also proves everyone must keep the New Moon because it mentions the New Moon.

Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Yes, and this Sabbath rest is not the weekly Sabbath; otherwise, everyone who ever kept the Sabbath would enter this rest every week. However, Hebrews 4:8-9 makes clear that the Sabbath rest that remains is one not even Joshua obtained on earth. If "entering the rest" means "keeping the weekly Sabbath," then Joshua and those he led would have entered the rest each week.

Instead, it's a rest we must be "diligent" to enter (Hebrews 4:11), the heavenly rest of Christ.

 

[Bob S]

until we read this part of the OT and NT

Sabbath:
Mark 2:27 "made for mankind"

Not true!

Gen 2:1-3 sanctified for man -- before any Jews existed

Not true!

Ex 20:11 states that its origin is in Gen 2:1-3 not in Exodus 16.

Blessed it for who? We are not told of a single soul until the exodus

66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" in the New Earth for all eternity after the cross

And Isaiah also wrote that man would live to be over 100 and not remember the past then he wrote that everyone would go amongst dead bodies and see the worms of those who didn't make the grade. So much for his story.

Heb 4 "There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

Yes, today.[/QUOTE]

 

[Kilk1]

Exactly, here we are in agreement as this is what the scripture teach.

No not at all. The literal meaning of the Hebrew name that God gives to all those who believe and follow His Word "Israel" is יִשְׂרָאֵל (Yisrâʼêl | H3478) and means he will rule with God or a soldier of God. As has been shown through scriptures already the name of “Israel is only a name given by God to all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says which was given to Jacob who was outside both the old covenant and the new covenants. Therefore, the name “Israel” that God gave to Jacob is outside of the covenants and is simply a name for Gods’ people who believe and follow what God’s Word says regardless of the old and new covenants which only point out who God’s people are in any given point in time. So that said even in the old and the new covenants Gods’ people have always been everyone who professes to believe and follow what Gods’ Word says. If they were not they were never truly a part of Gods’ people as this is who God’s people are defined as in the scriptures. According to the scriptures those who openly disobeyed Gods’ Word in sin and unbelief were cut off from Gods’ Israel in the old covenant and received Gods’ judgements. This can be shown all through the old covenant scriptures. Even if old covenant “Israel” collectively sinned against God in unbelief and sin they were cut off from God’s presence and God departed from them and they received God’s judgements until they chose to once again believe and follow Gods' Word and returned to God in repentance for their sins and unbelief and returned to God through believing and following His Word through blood sacrifice and sin atonement. So once again the name “Israel” is only a name that God gives to all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says in both the old and the new covenants. As posted earlier and already shown from the scriptures, old covenant Israel are simply the seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in fulfillment of Gods’ promise to them that he will make their seed a great nation because they believed and followed His Word.

Not really but allow me to explain why from the scriptures. We have already touched on this in the previous response to your post, but we can look at this a little further. According to the scriptures in the old and the new covenant Gods’ salvation was always conditional to believing and following what God’s Word says. If anyone in the old or new covenants sinned against God then God made provision for sin through repentance and faith as shown in the Mosaic “shadow laws” for remission of sins of the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Preisthood, through animal sacrifices and sin offerings. This is outlined as God’s Word given through Moses in the old covenant given to Israel from the Mosiac book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

So even when God’s people were unfaithful, and sinned against God, they could return to God through repentance and faith in God’s promises of forgiveness though believing and following God's Word through repentance and blood sacrifice just like we can in the new covenant. All those in the old and new covenant who remained in unbelief and know unrepentant sin were cast out of God’s Israel and received the judgements of God. When we sin in both the old and new covenants God has made provision for our sins through His Word so we can return to God. Once again Gods’ people are all those who believe and follow His World says. This does not mean that God’s people follow his World all the time but they follow Gods’ Word when they depart God to return to God. Only those who continue in the faith (the Word) believe and follow God’s Word to the end are Gods true “Israel” according to the scriptures and receive eternal life (James 1:12). Those who continue in unbelief and sin only receive the judgements of God and do not receive eternal life because they reject the free gift of Gods’ dear son who is the living Word of God (John 3:36; Hebrews 10:26-31; Romans 6:23).

more to come....

I think our posts are getting longer again, haha! To keep things short, I'm just going to reply to this, as I believe that to insist that Israel always means "those who believe and follow God's word" is the key of the disagreement. I'm surpised that you still say that this is the only definition of Israel even in these passages:

"Who gave Jacob for plunder, and Israel to the robbers? Was it not the LORD, He against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in His ways, Nor were they obedient to His law" (Isaiah 42:24, NKJV, emphasis mine).

"And He said to me: 'Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day'" (Ezekiel 2:3, NKJV, emphasis mine).

"But to Israel he [Isaiah] says: 'All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people'" (Romans 10:21, NKJV, emphasis mine).

Just to make sure, are you saying that the point of these passages are to say that "all those who believe and follow God's word" don't walk in God's ways? That "all those who believe and follow God's word" are "a rebellious nation"? That "all those who believe and follow God's word are "a disobedient and contrary people"?

If we become part of Israel, are we becoming part of "a rebellious nation"? If so, then what kind of nation were we in before becoming part of Israel?

 

[Kilk1]

Edit: did you do a significant edit to this post? It looks very different from what I remember reading. ??? Or maybe I clicked on the wrong post ???

The law about mixed fabrics is not part of the ten commandments. But it is part of the law. Is it a shadow law or a universal law?

I don't have an issue with the Sabbath commandment. My question is about which laws to keep. It's not a matter of getting past the ten commandments imo. If the teaching you present won't handle every law, then I think there's a problem somewhere.

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This analogy has been buzzing around in my head this morning, so maybe it will help someone if I share it:

Suppose Jane and I were told by the boss to pick all the apples off of an apple tree. And he also said that if we miss a single apple, it's just like we missed all the apples. At least that's what we think he said.

So Jane and I walk out and look up at this tree. Jane says, "It's easy, just reach out and pick an apple."

But I'm looking at this tree that's way higher than we can reach and we don't have a ladder. Maybe we could climb the trunk, but most of the branches are way too small to hold our weight.

I say, "You know, maybe we should go back and ask the boss again. Maybe we missed something."

Jane says, "What's the big deal? Look, I can easily reach another one," as she picks another apple and puts it in the basket.

After a few more apples, Jane adds, "If you're not going to take the easy ones, why would you worry about the hard ones?"

"Didn't the boss say that if you miss even one apple, it's just like we didn't pick any? We both heard that, right? We could spend all day on the low-hanging fruit and it wouldn't do us any good unless we can figure out a way to get the rest of the apples," I say.

Pondering a bit more, I say, "Maybe we didn't hear everything the boss had to say."

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Can you see what I'm saying in the analogy, or do you want me to add an explanation?

Like before, it seems you might be on to something. Are you wondering if the boss had made any exceptions or otherwise said something to limit what apples need to be obtained?

 

[Leaf473]

Hebrews 10 has the answer to that -- As you and I have seen many times in the past in answer to that same question.

Heb 10:
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

Which explains why "do not take God's name in vain" did not get "deleted at the cross" and so also with the others among the Ten Commandments (for example).

A bible detail so incredibly obvious that Bible scholars in almost all denominations admit to it.
(as we see examples like Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well.)

Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them.

Sounds good so far!

Please, can you go beyond the examples and list the rest of the 20 or 30 universal laws? I'm guessing about the number, maybe it's 100's?

 

[Leaf473]

Agreed. But the simple Bible detail about the Ten Commandments is so easy that both sides admit to the "Ten" remaining" as you and I have seen dozens of times by now -- and is specific to the subject title of this thread.

A bible detail so incredibly obvious that Bible scholars in almost all denominations admit to it.
(as we see examples like Section 19 of the "Baptist Confession of Faith" as C.H. Spurgeon framed it. And we see it in Section 19 of the "Westminster Confession of Faith" as well.)

Basic Bible details so obvious that BOTH sides admit to them

Yes, that would correspond to the "low-hanging fruit", the easy part.

I think there is a proverb that says "There is a way that seems right unto man, but the end thereof is the way of death."

Sometimes the easy answer isn't the right answer, is it?

 

[Leaf473]

If Isaiah 66:23 proves everyone must keep the Sabbath because it mentions the Sabbath, then the verse also proves everyone must keep the New Moon because it mentions the New Moon.

I've had the same thought.

And check out where this is taking place: Jerusalem!
And the modes of transportation. And some people get to be priests and Levites!

(On the subject of prophecies for physical Israel yet to be fulfilled, I think this would be one of them.)

Isaiah 66
19 “I will set a sign among them, and I will send those who escape of them to the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, who draw the bow, to Tubal and Javan, to far-away islands, who have not heard my fame, nor have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the nations. 20 They shall bring all your brothers out of all the nations for an offering to the Lord, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules, and on camels, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, says the Lord, as the children of Israel bring their offering in a clean vessel into the Lord’s house. 21 Of them I will also select priests and Levites,” says the Lord.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

If Isaiah 66:23 proves everyone must keep the Sabbath because it mentions the Sabbath, then the verse also proves everyone must keep the New Moon because it mentions the New Moon.

Isaiah 66:23 does prove that everyone who is saved will continue to worship on the Sabbath day.

The New Moon here just means month. That is how they kept track of months in bible times by the moon. This scripture does not say new moon festivals that is related to meat and food offerings and we know that won’t be on the New Earth because that ended. See Hebrews 10, Col 2:14-16 but the Sabbath commandment that God personally wrote is eternal. Psalms 89:34 and was promised by God as an eternal covenant Exodus 31:16 which we see fulfilled Isaiah 66:22-23

 

[Leaf473]

"Who gave Jacob for plunder, and Israel to the robbers? Was it not the LORD, He against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in His ways, Nor were they obedient to His law" (Isaiah 42:24, NKJV, emphasis mine).

And of course there's Israel the northern kingdom, as opposed to the southern Kingdom of Judah.

That Israel didn't have a single good king, but descended into idolatry from its inception, iirc.