The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

[Kilk1]

This was answered already. So, I will touch on it a little here again. It comes down what the scriptures teach as to who Gods Israel is in the old and the new covenants. Very simply according to the scripture Gods Israel under both the old and the new covenants is simply all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says as shown in Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29 and Romans 2:28-29. So of course, God’s Sabbath was only given to Israel who are all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says. Gods’ Word is not given to unbelievers who do not believe and do not follow what God’s Word says. Even in God’s 4th commandment “seventh day” Sabbath commandment God make provision for people of other nations to worship and follow him in Exodus 20:10 (גֵּר (gêr | H1616) means foreigner; alien; someone from another nation. The sign of the Sabbath being given here to Israel as posted earlier is simply to all those who believe and follow God’s Word which is the scriptures definition of Israel. The rest of your post here was repetition already addressed above. If you feel I may have missed something just let me know. I do not think that most of your posts so far are answering the questions asked in post # 171 linked to be honest which is asking for scripture to support the claims that are made in them.

more to come...

The wall of separation hadn't been broken yet when the Ten Commandments were given. The same goes for the rest of the law. The branches weren't broken off the tree to graft in Gentiles until the time of Christ. That's why the Ten Commandments can refer to the Sabbath as a memorial of when Israel was brought out of Egypt (Deuteronomy 5:15). It wasn't Israel of the spirit that was led out of Egypt, and it certainly wasn't all of mankind that was, so it's Israel of the flesh in consideration.

So it was during the time of Moses that the Sabbath was made known (Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14), and it was made known specifically for Israel of the flesh (Deuteronomy 5:15). Since it's specifically for the nation of Israel, Israel of the flesh, then Mark 2:27's reference to "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) doesn't mean anything more than it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

 

[Kilk1]

According to the scriptures Gods’ 10 commandments in the new covenant have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11.

Now according to the old covenant scripture, to state that Gods’ 10 commandments was all that there is to the covenant that God gave to Israel is only telling half of the story. Of course, we are in agreement here that God’s 10 commandment were indeed a part of the covenant that God made with Israel of the old testament as shown in Exodus 34:28. What your disregarding here is that Gods’ 10 commandments was not all that there was to the old covenant that God made with the physical nation of Israel. The other part of the old covenant that God made with Israel is the Mosiac book of the covenant as shown in Exodus 24:7 (Torah, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers).

Together the old covenant given to Israel therefore included both God’s 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness and the Mosaic book of the old covenant. Together both the two tables of stone written with the finger of God and the Mosaic book of the covenant were placed in the “ark (house) of the covenant” (Deuteronomy 10:2-5; Deuteronomy 31:26). It is important here to clearly understand what made up the old covenant in order to be able to understand what makes up the new covenant. Can you see here dear friend that the old covenant was not just Gods' 10 commandments but also included the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7).

more to come...

Again, God’s Israel is only a name given by God to all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says. If you are not a part of God’s Israel, then you have no part in God’s new covenant promise which is only ever made to Israel as shown in Hebrews 8:10-12. (See Romans 9:6-8; Romans 3:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; (more scripture support here linked).

Agreed but don’t forget as outlined from the scriptures already in the previous section, the old covenant was made up of not only God’s 10 commandment but also the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) and together both Gods’ 10 commandments and the Mosaic book of the covenant made up the old covenant given to physical Israel born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham.

God 10 commandments in the new covenant as shown earlier from the scriptures has the same role it always has and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) as shown in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin in James 2:10-11.

So what is it in the new covenant that has changed? Well, a lot of things but not God’s 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness and lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith! According to the scriptures in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22 it is the Mosaic “shadow laws” for remission of sins that have been made obsolete because they are now fulfilled in Christ to who they all pointed to.

That is the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, all the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings which all pointed to Jesus as Gods’ sacrifice for the sins of the world (John 1:29; John 1 36: Hebrews 10:10) the change of the Priesthood (Hebrews 7:1-25) and Christ new role in the new covenant as our great High Priest who is now ministering on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary of which the earthly was only a copy that the Lord pitched and not man (Hebrew 8:1-5). These are what is made obsolete and fulfilled and continued in Christ. The laws of God are no longer written on tables of stone but on the fleshly tables of the heart through the Spirit (see Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 and 2 Corinthians 3:3.

more to come...

According to the scriptures here in 2 Corinthians 3 is not Gods 10 commandments that have become obsolete it is the ministration of condemnation and death through the ministration of the Spirit that brings life and peace through Gods’ forgiveness and faith in Christ. Lets look at the scriptures.

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3-18
[3], For as much as YOU ARE MANIFESTLY DECLARED TO BE THE LETTER OF CHRIST MINISTERED BY US, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN FLESHY TABLES OF THE HEART.
[4], And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
[5], Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[6], WHO ALSO HAS MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.
[7], BUT IF THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH, WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONES, WAS GLORIOUS, SO THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY BEHOLD THE FACE OF MOSES FOR THE GLORY OF HIS COUNTENANCE; WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY:
[8], HOW SHALL NOT THE MINISTRATION OF THE SPIRIT BE RATHER GLORIOUS?
[9], FOR IF THE MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
[10], For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.
[11], FOR IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY WAS GLORIOUS, MUCH MORE THAT WHICH REMAINS IS GLORIOUS.
[12], Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
[13], AND NOT AS MOSES, WHICH PUT A VEIL OVER HIS FACE, THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY LOOK TO THE END OF THAT WHICH IS ABOLISHED:
[14], BUT THEIR MINDS WERE BLINDED: FOR UNTIL THIS DAY REMAINS THE SAME VEIL NOT TAKEN AWAY IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; WHICH VEIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
[15], But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart.
[16], NEVERTHELESS WHEN IT SHALL TURN TO THE LORD, THE VEIL SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY.
[17], Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: AND WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY.
[18], But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

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It is the ministration of condemnation and death by the letter that is done away by the ministration of the Spirit through God's mercy, grace and forgiveness through faith that works by love in fulfillment of Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) that is done away not God's 10 commandments. All God's 10 commandments do under the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172.

An interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about abolishing Gods' 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction to Paul when he says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes God's law and again in Romans 13:8-10 where Paul says we love our neighbor as our self by being obedient to those laws in God's 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our fellow man.

Indeed the ministration of the Spirit is greater the than the ministration of the letter because while the letter brings death and condemnation while the Spirit brings life and forgiveness through Christ and writes the law on the heart through faith that works by love which is Gods' new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 6:1-23. It is not therefore God’s 10 commandments that have become obsolete it is the ministration of condemnation and death through the ministration of God’s forgiveness and His sacrifice for our sins.

more to come...

This is where we get to the Ten Commandments. You say that the Ten Commandments give knowledge of sin but don't realize that's precisely why the Ten Commandments are a ministry of condemnation. It isn't unjust that it (as well as the rest of the law) condemns us. But Jesus took it out of the way.

You said, "According to the scriptures here in 2 Corinthians 3 is not Gods 10 commandments that have become obsolete it is the ministration of condemnation and death through the ministration of the Spirit that brings life and peace through Gods’ forgiveness and faith in Christ." But the Ten Commandments are the ministration of condemnation.

I feel I've said this more than once, but the ministration of condemnation is said to be "written and engraved on stones" (2 Corinthians 3:7, NKJV, emphasis mine), which shows that the Ten Commandments are, in fact, what 2 Corinthians 3:7 is referencing, right?

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone" (Deuteronomy 4:13, NKJV, emphasis mine).

It seems pretty obvious what was written in stone, right? Can you give verses showing anything else to be "written and engraved on stones" if not the Ten Commandments? If you can't, then it's the Ten Commandments under consideration here in 2 Corinthians 3, and the passage later calls these Ten Commandments "what is passing away" (2 Corinthians 3:11).

 

[Kilk1]

Well of course the scriptures teach that God first gave the 10 commandments as well as the Mosaic book of the covenant to physical Israel who he led out of Egypt. There is no argument there. I am not sure why you would feel that is a problem. Are you trying to argue that it is ok now to lie, steal, murder and commit adultery and take Gods’ name in vain and make idols and bow down and worship them because God first gave His 10 commandments to those of His people that he led out of Egypt?

I would hope that is not what you are trying to argue here because according to Gods’ new covenant scriptures everyone of God’s 10 commandments are repeated as the standard for Christian living (scripture support here linked). Jesus and the Apostles all taught obedience to Gods’ law in the new covenant scriptures (here linked). As posted earlier, according to the new covenant scriptures, God 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). According to James if we knowingly break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

I am sorry but I respectfully disagree with your view of Romans 7 because of the context already provided in Romans 6. Romans 7 is not saying we are dead to God’ law like you are teaching here. According to the chapter context of Romans 7 the law being discussed in Romans 7:4-6 is not God’s 10 commandments but the example of “marriage” between the flesh and the Spirit (the old man of sin and the new man that has died with Christ (see the contexts of Romans 6:1-23) as shown in Romans 7:1-3. Being dead to the law in Romans 7:4 is not saying we disregard God's law (10 commandments) or any one of God's commandments for that matter as the purpose of Gods law in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25.

That is why Paul says the law (10 commandments) as stated a little further after Paul explains the purpose of God’s law in Romans 7:7 (not marriage law) is to give us a knowledge of sin is holy, just and good in Romans 7:12. The context of Romans 7:4 is to the example of the law of marriage and being married to the new husband (Christ) in the Spirit *Romans 7:1-6. While we are married to the flesh (the old sinful man) we cannot be married to Christ in the Spirit. Romans 7:5-6 adds a little more clarity [5], For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit to death.[6], But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. The wages of sin is death according to the scriptures but the gift of God is JESUS our new husband to those who have died to the flesh (see Romans 6) and been made free to walk in the Spirit *Romans 6:23; Romans 7:1-6; Romans 8:1-4; 13; Galatians 5:16. Have a prayerful read of Romans 6 dear friend. It will help your study as Romans 7 is just a different expression of the same subject matter. Showing that it is sin that we die to not God’s law that gives us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7.

more to come...

I don't believe the Sabbath is re-taught under the new covenant. Most of the references in the link you provided either are before Jesus died or referencing the customs of Jews. Then there's Hebrews 4, which is a spiritual Sabbath, the one not even Joshua entered but is available "today" (Hebrews 4:6-9). This proves that entering the Sabbath rest which remains doesn't refer to keeping the weekly Sabbath; otherwise, as a God-fearing Jew, Joshua would have entered it every time he observed the Sabbath. Rather, the Sabbath is heavenly rest brought through Christ, something we must be "diligent" to enter (Hebrews 4:9-11). So there is a Sabbath rest that remains for us today, but it isn't the weekly Sabbath.

None of this means we can murder, steal or commit adultery, as those clearly are commanded in the New Testament.

You said, "According to the chapter context of Romans 7 the law being discussed in Romans 7:4-6 is not God’s 10 commandments but the example of 'marriage' between the flesh and the Spirit (the old man of sin and the new man that has died with Christ (see the contexts of Romans 6:1-23) as shown in Romans 7:1-3. Being dead to the law in Romans 7:4 is not saying we disregard God's law (10 commandments) or any one of God's commandments for that matter as the purpose of Gods law in the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of what sin is *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25."

However, the law being discussed in Romans 7 is the ten commandments, the same law that said "You shall not covet" (Romans 7:7). Just a feel verses earlier, we're told we've become dead to it (Romans 6:1-4). Yes, it makes sin known, but that doesn't mean we're under it. Paul says both that it makes sin known and that we've become dead to it, so I believe both.

 

[Kilk1]

Actually no. According to the scriptures as posted earlier the old covenant consisted of both God’s 10 commandments which in the new covenant have the same role they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). According to James if we knowingly break anyone of them, we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. The old covenant also included the Mosaic book of the covenant written by Moses as directed by God as shown in Exodus 24:7. What I believe you’re mixing up here is the Mosaic “shadow laws” from the book of the covenant's (Exodus 24:7) laws for remission of sins which include the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws for animal sacrifices and sin offerings for atonement of sin with Gods’ eternal laws that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4.

These “shadow laws” for remission of sins from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) pointed to Jesus as Gods’ sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10, and the ministration of Jesus in the new covenant as our great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:13; Hebrews 9:1-27: Hebrews 10:1-22). As shown through the scriptures already Gods Israel is only a name by God given to all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 3:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29) if we are not a part of God’s Israel who believe and follow what God’s Word says we have no part in Gods new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

As posted and shown earlier through the scriptures, everyone of God’s 10 commandments are repeated as the standard for Christian living (scripture support here linked). Jesus and the Apostles all taught obedience to Gods’ law in the new covenant scriptures (here linked). As posted earlier, according to the new covenant scriptures, God 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172). According to James if we knowingly break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. “Therefore, it remains [left behind] for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.” – Hebrews 4:9

more to come...

We're literally told in Hebrews 9:1 of things from "the first covenant" (NKJV) and that among the list are "the tablets of the covenant" (Hebrews 9:4, NKJV). So again, the two tablets of the Ten Commandments are part of the old covenant, right?

And the old covenant was for Israel of the flesh, not Israel of the spirit.

(Also, “Therefore, it remains [left behind] for the people of God to keep the Sabbath.” is not what the verse says.) Did Joshua or did Joshua not enter the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:8-9? (I say he did not, but we all know he kept the weekly Sabbath.) What do you say? Did Joshua enter the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:8-9?

 

[Kilk1]

According to the scriptures, as has been shown earlier, from the very words of Jesus the Sabbath was made for man (mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27. The scriptures do not say anywhere that the Sabbath was made for Jews or physical Israel in Mark 2:27. If Jesus was stating that the Sabbath was made for the Jews he would have used the Greek word Ἰουδαῖος (Ioudaîos; G2453) or for Israel he would have said Ἰσραήλ (Israḗl | G2474). Fact is though he specifically used the Greek word for human beings or mankind (ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444). So this right from the start has you reading into the scripture of Mark 2:27 what the scriptures are not saying or teaching. The evidence of this is further provided in Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3 where God created the Sabbath for mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings. As Jesus says on the “seventh day” of the creation week. According to the scriptures when God created the Sabbath on the “seventh day” of the creation week, there was no Abraham, no Isaac, no Jacob, no Moses, no Jew, no Israel, no law, no sin and no plan of salvation given. There was only Adam and Eve representing the first of all mankind made in the image of God created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31) that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week that he blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

As posted a little earlier, according to the scriptures, context and subject matter with prayerful help from God’s Spirit, determine word meanings for scripture interpretation. Firstly, a Jew is also a part of mankind [Greek, anthropos]. This is the context and application of John 7:22-23. As posted earlier, the context and subject matter here and application of man [Greek, anthropos] in John 7:22-23 is to circumcision (subject matter). Circumcision was not given to God’s people of the old covenant at creation but was given to Abraham of the sign of the covenant that God made with him and His seed that shall become a great nation (Genesis 17:9-14). There was no Abraham, no Jew, no Israel no Moses, no sin, and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin and no circumcision because there was no covenant given to those who believed and followed Gods’ Word at creation. Only Adam and Eve created on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31 that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation weem in Genesis 2:1-3.

According to the scriptures, as has been shown earlier, from the very words of Jesus the Sabbath was made for man (mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27. The scriptures do not say anywhere that the Sabbath was made for Jews or physical Israel in Mark 2:27. If Jesus was stating that the Sabbath was made for the Jews he would have used the Greek word Ἰουδαῖος (Ioudaîos; G2453) or for Israel he would have said Ἰσραήλ (Israḗl | G2474). Fact is though he specifically used the Greek word for humal beings or mankind (ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444). So this right from the start has you reading into the scripture of Mark 2:27 what the scriptures are not saying or teaching. The evidence of this is further provided in Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3 where God created the Sabbath for mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings. As Jesus says on the “seventh day” of the creation week. According to the scriptures when God created the Sabbath on the “seventh day” of the creation week, there was no Abraham, no Isaac, no Jacob, no Moses, no Jew, no Israel, no law, no sin and no plan of salvation given. There was only Adam and Eve representing the first of all mankind made in the image of God created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31) that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week that he blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

more to come...

My response to this can be seen earlier. I'm glad that you can see that "a Jew is also a part of mankind." This is also my point on Mark 2:27. Again, if we make "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) in Mark 2:27 mean "all mankind," then we'd actually make Jesus contradict Exodus 31:17, Nehemiah 9:14, Ezekiel 20:12, and even the Ten Commandments in Deuteronomy 5:15, passages which specify the Sabbath as a covenant sign between God and the physical nation of Israel that was brought out of Egypt. The Sabbath couldn't be a covenant sign between God and Israel if it were already for everyone else anyway, right? No, it means the same thing it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

 

[Kilk1]

According to the scriptures, as has been shown earlier, from the very words of Jesus the Sabbath was made for man (mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27. The scriptures do not say anywhere that the Sabbath was made for Jews or physical Israel in Mark 2:27. If Jesus was stating that the Sabbath was made for the Jews he would have used the Greek word Ἰουδαῖος (Ioudaîos; G2453) or for Israel he would have said Ἰσραήλ (Israḗl | G2474). Fact is though he specifically used the Greek word for human beings or mankind (ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444). So this right from the start has you reading into the scripture of Mark 2:27 what the scriptures are not saying or teaching. The evidence of this is further provided in Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3 where God created the Sabbath for mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings. As Jesus says on the “seventh day” of the creation week. According to the scriptures when God created the Sabbath on the “seventh day” of the creation week, there was no Abraham, no Isaac, no Jacob, no Moses, no Jew, no Israel, no law, no sin and no plan of salvation given. There was only Adam and Eve representing the first of all mankind made in the image of God created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31) that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week that he blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

As posted a little earlier, according to the scriptures, context and subject matter with prayerful help from God’s Spirit, determine word meanings for scripture interpretation. Firstly, a Jew is also a part of mankind [Greek, anthropos]. This is the context and application of John 7:22-23. As posted earlier, the context and subject matter here and application of man [Greek, anthropos] in John 7:22-23 is to circumcision (subject matter). Circumcision was not given to God’s people of the old covenant at creation but was given to Abraham of the sign of the covenant that God made with him and His seed that shall become a great nation (Genesis 17:9-14). There was no Abraham, no Jew, no Israel no Moses, no sin, and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin and no circumcision because there was no covenant given to those who believed and followed Gods’ Word at creation. Only Adam and Eve created on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31 that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation weem in Genesis 2:1-3.

According to the scriptures, as has been shown earlier, from the very words of Jesus the Sabbath was made for man (mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27. The scriptures do not say anywhere that the Sabbath was made for Jews or physical Israel in Mark 2:27. If Jesus was stating that the Sabbath was made for the Jews he would have used the Greek word Ἰουδαῖος (Ioudaîos; G2453) or for Israel he would have said Ἰσραήλ (Israḗl | G2474). Fact is though he specifically used the Greek word for humal beings or mankind (ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444). So this right from the start has you reading into the scripture of Mark 2:27 what the scriptures are not saying or teaching. The evidence of this is further provided in Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3 where God created the Sabbath for mandkind ἄνθρωπος; ánthrōpos G444 human beings. As Jesus says on the “seventh day” of the creation week. According to the scriptures when God created the Sabbath on the “seventh day” of the creation week, there was no Abraham, no Isaac, no Jacob, no Moses, no Jew, no Israel, no law, no sin and no plan of salvation given. There was only Adam and Eve representing the first of all mankind made in the image of God created on the 6th day of the creation week (Genesis 1:26-31) that God made the Sabbath for on the “seventh day” of the creation week that he blessed and set aside as a holy day of rest for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

more to come...

As shown through the scriptures already, Gods’ Israel is simple a name given by God to all those who believe and follow Gods’ Word in both the old ands new covenants (See Romans 9:6-8; Romans 3:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29; (more scripture support here linked). Gods’ Israel in the old covenant were all those who believe and follow Gods’ Word born in the flesh of the seed of Abraham according to the promise made by God to Abraham. Gods’ Israel under the new covenant is not longer only those born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who have been born again of the Spirit to believe and follow what Gods’ Word says. If we are not a part of Gods Israel, we have no part in Gods’ new covenant promises according to Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27

According to the scriptures, the enmity between the Jews and the Gentiles is the separation between them by the commandments contained in “ordinances (Ephesians 2:15). God’s 10 commandments were never contained in ordinances. The Greek word used here is the same words used in Colossians 2:14 “Blotting out the handwriting contained in ordinances that were against us.” The Greek word used here for “ordinances” is δόγμα (dógma | G1378) which means a civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law that was against us. So the reference here is not to God’s 10 commandments but the laws in “ordinances” (civil; ceremonial or ecclesiastical law) that separated Jews from the Gentile believers in Ephesians 2:15.

The laws of separation were the laws for remission of sins. Genetile believers were not allowed to partake of the laws for remission of sins unless they became proselytes or converted to Judaism. Jesus broke down the middle wall of partition by His death putting and end to the old covenant laws for remission of sins (earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, animal sacrifices and sin offerings) that all point to Christ and were fulfilled in Him at his death nailing them to the cross *Colossians 2:14 hat he might create in himself of the two (Jew and Gentile believers) one new man, so making peace and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby (sin and its penalty of condemnation and death) *Ephesians 2:15-16.

more to come...

Again, Old Testament Israel is the Israel of the flesh, and New Testament Israel is the Israel of the spirit. The middle wall of separation hadn't been broken before Christ. The branches weren't broken off the tree to graft in Gentiles until the time of Christ.

So at the time of Moses, the Sabbath wasn't known. God, through Moses' hand, made it known (Ezekiel 20:12; Nehemiah 9:14), and did so specifically for Israel (Deuteronomy 5:15). Since it's specifically for the nation of Israel, Israel of the flesh, then Mark 2:27's reference to "man" (Greek, ánthrōpos) doesn't mean anything more than it means in John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, or Hebrews 7:28—that is, "Jews."

 

[Kilk1]

This has been addressed with a detailed scripture response already showing why Gods' 4th commandment is not a shadow law of Colossians 2:16 so I will only touch on it briefly again here. As shown through the scriptures, already, the within scripture context of Colossians 2:16-17 is that the meat and drink offerings and the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the Feast days which are the “shadows of things to come” but the body is of Christ. That is because the annual Feasts days were all Mosiac “shadow laws” from the book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) linked to the old covenant earthly Sanctuary’s laws for remission of sins and sin offerings, pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and His work on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary, as our great High Priest that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22), they are all now fulfilled and continued in Christ. They were the “shadows” pointing to “the body” of Christ who has now arrived. Hosea is saying that God is putting an end to all the things mentioned in Colossians 2:16 that were pointing to Jesus. The sabbaths in the Feast days that are being brought to an end are those linked directly in the Feast days and the old covenant laws for remission of sins. Not God’s 4th commandments which is also outside of the annual Feast days that points backwards, not forwards to things to come. *Exodus 20:8-11. You’re mixing up the “ceremonial shadow sabbaths” in the Feast days with God’s eternal Sabbath *Exodus 31:16 that will be continued to be kept forever in the new earth (Isaiah 66:22-23) of Gods’ 10 commandments (Exodus 20:8-11) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7) under the new covenant (Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

Yes I have posted on this these scriptures already both here and in other threads showing that Paul in Colossians 2:16 is quoting from these old testament scriptures found in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 2 Chronicles 31:3, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11. As posted already the within scripture context of Colossians 2:16 is that the meat and drink offerings (laws for remission of sins) and the new moons and the sabbaths (plural) in the Feast days they they are all linked to are the “shadows of things to come” but the body us of Christ. That is, because the annual Feasts were all shadows linked directly to the laws for atonement and the remission of sins and sin offerings through animal sacrifices, pointing to Jesus as the promised Messiah and His work on our behalf in the new covenant as Jesus as our great High Priest who now ministers on our behalf in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22) they are now fulfilled and continued in Him to which they pointed to in the new covenant!

I am not really one for commentaries as the commentators or so called scholars rarely agree with each other but even the Sunday keeping commentaries do not agree with your teachings here that Colossians 2:16 is a reference to Gods’ 10 commandments or God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments or Gods 4th commandment of the 10 commandments.

You should take note of the scriptures in Colossians 2:16; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 2 Chronicles 31:3; Nehemiah 10:33; Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11 is not to the Sabbath (singular) but application is to sabbaths (plural). It is not talking about the Sabbath of Gods’ 10 commandments being a “shadow” but the sabbaths (plural which is a noun that is genitive neuter plural application (N-GNP) connected to the appointed times (Feast days) and food and drink offerings and the old covenant laws for remission of sins through animal sacrifices under the earthly Sanctuary and the Levitical Priesthood. Out of respect for our conversation however I did follow the linked commentaries you provided. The commentaries are not stating that 2 Chronicles 2:4; 2 Chronicles 31:3; Nehemiah 10:33; Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11 is referring to the weekly Sabbath of Gods' 4th commandment although of course I agree it would be included in the Feast days and linked to the meat and drink offerings would be included. The majority of commentaries you provided, I noticed are talking about what I have been sharing with you from the scriptures and that is that the sabbaths in the Feast days are linked directly to the laws of remission of sins through the meat and the drink offerings. These are the shadows that are now fulfilled in Christ, not Gods 10 commandments or God’s 4th commandment which will be continued to be kept as an everlasting covenant in the new earth *Exodus 31:16; Isaiah 66:22-23.

Even Sunday keeping scholars agree with what I have been sharing with you from Colossians 2:16 and its application to the sabbaths in the feast days which is not a reference to Gods' 4th commandment as shown below.

Albert Barnes Notes on the Bible

“... Or of the Sabbath days - Greek, “of the Sabbaths.” The word Sabbath in the Old Testament is applied not only to the seventh day, but to all the days of holy rest that were observed by the Hebrews, and particularly to the beginning and close of their great festivals. There is, doubtless, reference to those days in this place, since the word is used in the plural number, and the apostle does not refer particularly to the Sabbath properly so called. There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind. If he had used the word in the singular number - “the Sabbath,” it would then, of course, have been clear that he meant to teach that that commandment had ceased to be binding, and that a Sabbath was no longer to be observed. But the use of the term in the plural number, and the connection, show that he had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals, as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the moral law, or the Ten Commandments. No part of the moral law - no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as “a shadow of good things to come.” These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal obligation. ...” - Albert Barnes, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Adam Clarke, states on the same passage:

There is no intimation here that the Sabbath was done away, or that its moral use was superseded, by the introduction of Christianity. I have shown elsewhere that, Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is a command of perpetual obligation, and can never be superseded but by the final termination of time. ...” - Adam Clarke, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary states:

“... the sabbath — Omit “THE,” which is not in the Greek (compare Note, see on Gal_4:10). “SABBATHS” (not “the sabbaths”) of the day of atonement and feast of tabernacles have come to an end with the Jewish services to which they belonged (Lev_23:32, Lev_23:37-39). The weekly sabbath rests on a more permanent foundation, having been instituted in Paradise to commemorate the completion of creation in six days. Lev_23:38 expressly distinguished “the sabbath of the Lord” from the other sabbaths. A positive precept is right because it is commanded, and ceases to be obligatory when abrogated; a moral precept is commanded eternally, because it is eternally right. If we could keep a perpetual sabbath, as we shall hereafter, the positive precept of the sabbath, one in each week, would not be needed. Heb_4:9, “rests,” Greek, “keeping of sabbath” (Isa_66:23). But we cannot, since even Adam, in innocence, needed one amidst his earthly employments; therefore the sabbath is still needed and is therefore still linked with the other nine commandments, as obligatory in the spirit, though the letter of the law has been superseded by that higher spirit of love which is the essence of law and Gospel alike (Rom_13:8-10). ...” - Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, Colossians 2:16 Commentary. E-Sword App.

more to come....

I've addressed this here: The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?. I'll also add that the bias of the commentators you referenced are clear. You referenced them as if they're on my side, it seems, but in reality, they're not, as I believe the weekly Sabbath has been done away. Therefore, as far as Colossians 2:16 is concerned, they're on your side. Isn't it strange that all the commentaries can agree everywhere else but here? When they aren't thinking about Colossians 2:16, their bias on what the passages mean aren't present, so everyone (Sabbatarian or otherwise) agrees that the weekly Sabbath is included in 2 Chronicles 2:4, 2 Chronicles 31:3, Nehemiah 10:33, Ezekiel 45:17, and Hosea 2:11. It's significant that all the commentaries agree in these passages. It's only when the same exact terms are said to be something not to judge others in that suddenly, the Sabbatarian commentaries see another meaning.

As said earlier, our interpretation of the phrase "festivals, new moons, and sabbaths" should be consistent everywhere the phrase is used.

 

[Kilk1]

According to the scriptures as shown in the previous section Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is a warning that if we harden our hearts to hearing and believing and following God’s Word (the gospel) we will not enter into Gods’ rest which is defined in the scripture context of Hebrews 4:3-4 as “the seventh day” Sabbath created at the foundation of the world which refers back to Genesis 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was created for all mankind. What the scriptures means is that it is possible to physically keep God’s 4th commandment but not enter into God’s rest (Sabbath keeping) because of unbelief and sin. We can look at the detail here in the next few posts if you like?

More to come...

According to the scriptures as shown in the previous section Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is a warning that if we harden our hearts to hearing and believing and following God’s Word (the gospel) we will not enter into Gods’ rest which is defined in the scripture context of Hebrews 4:3-4 as “the seventh day” Sabbath created at the foundation of the world which refers back to Genesis 2:1-3 when the Sabbath was created for all mankind. What the scriptures means is that it is possible to physically keep God’s 4th commandment but not enter into God’s rest (Sabbath keeping) because of unbelief and sin. Let's look at the scripture detail in the next few posts.

more to come...

Will come back shortly to continue. I hope the shorter responses are earlier to follow all though there is more of them.. I will continue with a detailed response to Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 shortly.

Take Care.

Again, if entering the rest in Hebrews means keeping the Sabbath and doing so sincerely in Hebrews 4:8-9, then did Joshua do so? If not, are you saying he didn't keep the Sabbath as God intended?

 

[Kilk1]

Wow, that was one time-consuming runthrough, haha! As you read through all that, @LoveGodsWord, know that I mean all this in sincerity. I look forward to your critique. Since a lot of the posts can get repetitive, perhaps it'd be better to respond to specific passages rather than each individual post. It's up to you.

 

[Kilk1]

@LoveGodsWord One question I'll throw in is this: Do you ever see the Sabbath "given" to anyone other than Israel of the flesh? (Remember, in the time of Moses, "Israel" was pre-New Testament and thus, of the flesh.)

 

[Leaf473]

You might be on to something, but I'm not sure yet. As far as it concerns me, feel free to offer a fuller explanation of what you're getting at.

Thanks for asking. As a preamble:
Titus 3:8ff These things are good and profitable to men; but shun foolish questionings, genealogies, strife, and disputes about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. Avoid a factious man after a first and second warning; knowing that such a one is perverted, and sins, being self-condemned.

In my experience, when a discussion about the law (or any excessively fine point of the scriptures) goes on for too long, people often give in to the temptation to become frustrated and angry. Works of the flesh often ensue.

I'm not saying the above is what is happening here. But I myself have been part of many very long discussions about the law on this forum and in the end, even after all of my efforts, the other person did not appear to be edified.
(I also confess that I have been involved in unprofitable, vain things and been that factious person.)

So I set about looking for a more edifying, or at least a shorter, way of talking about Christian living.

Everyone I know of who is in favor of keeping at least some of the laws from the law of Moses
(as Luke used the term: the first five books of the Bible)
also says that we don't keep all of them. This then raises the question, Do you have a list?

(It can be a list of the shadows or universals, whichever is shorter.)

Without such a list, the person is in the position of saying,
It's very important that we keep certain laws, though I can't say which ones exactly.

To be continued...

 

[Leaf473]

You might be on to something, but I'm not sure yet. As far as it concerns me, feel free to offer a fuller explanation of what you're getting at.

Continued from above...

I'll use an example from a different subject, hopefully people can see the parallel.

While discussing flat Earth ideas with a flat earther, I realized that it would be really handy to have a flat Earth map so we could talk about distances that a flat Earth would require.

But it turned out the Christian brother I was talking with could not produce a map that he liked.

I suggested something like this

But no, he didn't like it. So I basically left it with,
When you find a map you like, let me know and we'll resume the discussion.

If a person looks at just the scriptures and never lifts their nose out of the pages, they can make a good case for a flat Earth.
What Does the Bible Say About Flat Earth?
It's only when you try to apply the results of that study to the real world that problems begin to arise imo.

Note that the map is fairly accurate around the far north. It's when you go south the things get strange. Check out the shape of Australia.

So also if a person believes they have discovered in the scriptures the process or algorithm for separating shadow laws from universal laws, it seems fair to ask if they can produce a list in the real world.

I think it would be easy to hold the concepts of shadow and universal laws in your mind, just as it is easy to hold the concept of a flat Earth in your mind. It's making a real world copy where the difficulties arise, again imo.

 

[Leaf473]

The entire law was the shadow.

Everything from the unleavened bread to the high priesthood itself, all types, shadows of the approaching messiah. Jesus was the bread from heaven, the divine high priest.

Everything the law described is only found fulfilled in Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 10:1
For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect.

Jesus was perfectly moral and fulfilled all the moral law. That is beyond any question.

Alas, for us, the law only grants the knowledge of sin.

The law was never obeyed by humanity, not even close, how could it be obeyed?

That's a good point. Hebrews 10:1 makes it sound like "the law" itself is the shadow. In fact, even Colossians 2:16-17 doesn't appear to call the various things "shadows" (plural) but "a shadow" (singular), suggesting all the various parts collectively (the law) are the shadow. I'll tag @LoveGodsWord to this point as well, since I think it's worthy of consideration.

Tying in with this idea that the law as a whole is a shadow:
It's possible that Paul and the writer of Hebrews have in mind Plato's allegory of the cave.

I've heard that this idea was very well known in the Greek world at that time.

https://www.studiobinder.com/blog/platos-allegory-of-the-cave/

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I respectfully disagree with your claims here, because your claims here are simply a distraction between God's eternal law (the 10 commandments) spoken by God alone and written by God alone with the finger of God on two tables of stone and the Mosiac book of the "shadow laws" for remission of sins that were written in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) that point to Christ and his work on our behalf under the new covenant promise written in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

Your claims here have already been addressed with detailed scripture responses but you claim you do not understand them and the conversation then simply stops. It is a very simple process to determine what is a "shadow law" and what is not a shadow law. Gods' 10 commandments are all Gods' eternal laws written on stone because they are eternal. They give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) as shown in the new covenant scriptures in Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and also in Psalms 119:172. God's 10 commandments are therefore the standard of right doing if obeyed from the heart through faith and wrong doing if broken in unbelief and sin. Any sub laws or commandments from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (Exodus 24:7) or scriptures from the new covenant that teach us what is right and wrong in context to the covenant are what God wants us to believe and follow by faith.

However the "shadow laws" are all the prophetic laws that are given in the Mosaic book of the covenant that pointed to Jesus as Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (John 1:29; 36; Hebrews 10:10) and the work and role of Jesus in the new covenant as our great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us. The prophetic "shadow laws" therefore include all the laws written in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) for remission of sins. As posted to you already, these include all the earthly Sanctuary laws, the laws of the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings, the meat and the drink offerings and the annual Feast days, circumcision that all point to Jesus as the coming Messiah and his work in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man and God's new covenant promise to all who choose to believe and follow what Gods' Word says (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27).

Perhaps you can pray about the above. Let's start with one example here. Why do you think we no longer need to be circumcised in the new covenant and does not being circumcised mean that Gods' 10 commandments do not need to be kept?

Your response here...

I'll be happy to write a fuller response if you wish. Just let me know. If you believe it is easy to separate the shadow laws from the universal laws, please post your list of universal laws. If I ask how many laws are in the ten commandments, I assume you would easily answer 10. If you cannot or will not post a list of universal laws, can you at least say how many other universals there are? 10 or 20? Or several hundred? The reason I don't encourage ritual circumcision is because it is a shadow law. And you take care as well, my friend! Peace be with you!

There is no need thanks. Your response to the post you are quoting from only tells me that your not interested in a discussion here as you simply ignored what was posted to you and did not even bother answering my questions to you.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The law in it's entirety was but a mere shadow of the approaching Christ.

Not according to the scriptures. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) Jesus and the Apostles all taught obedience to Gods law (scripture support) and everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant (scripture support) as a requirement for Christian living in all those who have been born of the Spirit to believe follow what God's Word says (see John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-7; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Your mixing up Gods' eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 written on stone with the finger of God *Exodus 32:16 with the Mosaic "shadow laws" written by Moses for the remission of sins pointing to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29 who was the true unleavened bread and Passover lamb of God *1 Corinthians 5:7 and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant and the work of Jesus as our true great high Priest that ever lives to make intercession for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22.

Hebrews 10:1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the form of those things itself, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually every year, make those who approach perfect. The law was never intended to make anyone perfect, nor righteous. All the law can do is notify you that you are a sinner. No credit points are awarded for devotion to the law. For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come

David, you may want to consider the scripture contexts here and the subject matter your disregarding in your interpretation of Hebrews 10:1 as it is not a reference to Gods' 10 commandments being a shadow of anything. Hebrews 9:1-27 is talking about the laws or remission of sins and the sin offerings and comparing them to the offering Jesus made with his own blood and the ratification of the old and the new covenants by blood atonement for sin not Gods' 10 commandments.

According to the scriptures, Hebrews 10:1-22 continues from Hebrews 9:1-27. So the context and subject matter your disregarding even in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22 proves your interpretation of Hebrews 10:1 is not talking about God's 10 commandments. The context and subject matter of these scriptures is the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins in the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings to that to which they all pointed to which was Jesus as Gods' true sacrifice for sins through blood atonement and his role as our great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:1-6.(see also Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22). Your disregarding context and subject matter which is not to God's 10 commandments but to the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins and the old Sanctuary that carried out these laws that was only all a copy and shadow of the new covenant and the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not mat as outlined in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7).

Let's have a detailed look at the scriptures...

HEBREWS 10:1-10
[1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR CONTINUALLY MAKE THE COMERS THEREUNTO PERFECT.

Note: the within scripture subject matter contexts continues from the laws of the animal sacrifices and sin offering of Hebrews 9:1-27 and the better offering of the blood of Christ. The within scripture subject matter and context is to the laws of animal sacrifices that are offered year by year.

[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because THAT THE WORSHIPERS ONCE PURGED SHOULD HAVE HAD NO MORE CONSCIENCE OF SINS.
[3], But IN THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Note: context and subject matter is the laws of remission of sins through blood sacrifice.

[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU WOULD NOT, BUT A BODY HAVE YOU PREPARED ME:
[6], IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
[7], THEN SAID I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.

Note: All these laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) were “shadow laws” pointing to Jesus and are fulfilled and continued in Christ as God’s true sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (see Hebrews 10:10).

[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, NEITHER HAD PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;

Note: The context and subject matter is not Gods’ 10 commandments but the Mosaic “shadow laws” for remission of sins in animal sacrifices and sin offerings from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (see Hebrews 10:7 and Exodus 24:7) and the introduction of Jesus to who all these laws pointed to.

[9], THEN SAID HE, SEE, I COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
[10], By the which WILL WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL.

.................

CONCLUSION: The context and subject matter of Hebrews 10:1 is to Mosiac “shadow laws” for remission of sins in the Sanctuary from the Mosiac book of the covenant (Hebrews 10:7; Exodus 24:7) not God’s 10 commandments which give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. According to James if we break anyone of God’s 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 once God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word if we choose to reject it there remains no more sacrifice for sin (forgiveness) but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come which will devour the adversaries. God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Wow, that was one time-consuming runthrough, haha! As you read through all that, @LoveGodsWord, know that I mean all this in sincerity. I look forward to your critique. Since a lot of the posts can get repetitive, perhaps it'd be better to respond to specific passages rather than each individual post. It's up to you.

Well I was surprised to see you have been busy Kilk. Thanks for taking some time to consider the scriptures in the posts shared with you. I did not agree with much but will show why I disagree from the scriptures again. I did find that there was some repetition so I may not respond to every post if I have made a scriptural response already. I will follow the same pattern as your posts here and some will be smaller some larger. I think after this however (because I am responding to many posts) it may be easier to just do one post at a time to give others the opportunity to participate in the discussion and respond if they would like to if that is fine with you as it is your thread of course.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Would you agree that there was at least some significance placed on the first day of the week in 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, where giving was specifically said to be done on Sundays rather than on Sabbaths? Responding to my claims, you referenced two translations:

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 King James Bible
Upon the {1}. first day of the week let every one of you {2}. lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, {3}. that there be no gatherings when I come.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
{1}. On every Sunday, let each person of you {2}. lay aside in his house and keep that which he can, {3}. so that when I come there will be no collections.

Would you agree that in both versions, it's clear that Sunday, not the Sabbath, is when giving was to occur? While it isn't specified to be a day of rest, if Sunday is specified as the day for giving, there's at least some significance placed on Sunday (as opposed to no significance at all), right? Again, though, I'm not arguing that Sunday is the "Christian Sabbath," so it isn't my main focus here.

Well I think I have outlined my position in a detailed scripture response from post # 241 linked which is a little further on in the discussion. In this post we went into a detailed scripture response in regard to Acts of the Apostles 20:7 and 1 Corinthians 16:1-2. In regards to 1 Corinthians 16:1-2, the context and subject matter and the Greek all shows that 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 was to put aside offerings on the first day of the week at home (not at a Church service) so that when Paul was passing through he could collect them on his way to Jerusalem to give to the poor.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 [1], Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do you. [2], On the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Once again by simply reading what is in the scriptures like we did in the previous scripture from Acts of the Apostles 20:7 shows that there is nothing in this scripture that says God’s 4th commandment of the 10 commandments is no longer a requirement for Christian living just like there is no scripture that says it is ok for us now to lie and steal and commit murder. To claim that 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 is saying that the Sabbath is not binding on Christians in the new testament is reading into the scriptures what the scriptures do not say and do not teach. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 simply states what it says. Paul was passing though to the Corinthians on His way to Jerusalem (v8) and wanted the collections of the Saints to be done before he arrived.

Let’s dig a little deeper. These two are translations below are representative of the majority of translations and also the Greek.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 King James Bible
Upon the {1}. first day of the week let every one of you {2}. lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, {3}. that there be no gatherings when I come.

1 Corinthians 16:1-2 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
{1}. On every Sunday, let each person of you {2}. lay aside in his house and keep that which he can, {3}. so that when I come there will be no collections.

The sections of 1 Corinthians 16:2 are broken down into context order within the scripture for discussion here as marked above in the last two parallel scripture examples above.

So the command given by Paul for the collection of the saints here is that {1} on the first day of the week (every Sunday) let every person {2} lay by him in store - The Greek being παρ ̓ ἑαυτῷ τιθέτω θησαυρίζων par' heautō tithetō thēsaurizōn. Meaning let him lay up at home (by himself), treasuring up as he has been prospered. The Greek phrase, "by himself," means, the same as at home. Let him set it apart by himself at home; let him designate a certain portion; let him do this by himself, when he is at home. Let him set it aside and put it in store, separate it and save it up, as God hath prospered him - The word "God" is not in the original, but it is evidently understood, and necessary to the sense. The word rendered "hath prospered" (εὐοδῶται euodōtai)

Now note the reason here for this command within the scripture is given in the same verse in the last section of the scripture {3} That there be no gatherings when I come - No collections λογίαι logiai, 1 Corinthians 16:1). The apostle means that there should be no trouble in collecting the small sums; that it should all be prepared; that each one might have laid by what he could give; and that all might be ready to be handed over to him, or to whomsoever they might choose to send with it to Jerusalem.

................

CONCLUSION: According to the scriptures Acts of the Apostles 2:46-47 shows that God's people met everyday of the week to break bread and worship God. This does not make every day of the week a holy day of rest or a replacement for God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. As shown in the scripture contexts Acts of the Apostles 20:7 the reason why Gods' people were meeting together was because Paul was departing them the next day. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 was a command given by Paul for the collection of the saints that every man was to put aside money as God had prospered him at home by himself on the first day of the week (Sunday) because Paul was passing through he could collect all the money on his way to Jerusalem. There is absolutely - nothing, in these scriptures that says Sunday is a Holy day or that God's 4th commandment Sabbath has been abolished is there? So according to the scriptures neither Acts of the Apostles 20:7 or 1 Corinthians 16:1-2 support Sunday as a day of worship in place of God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments. Sunday or the first day of the week as no different to any other day of the week according to the scriptures and there is no scripture that tells us that we are to observe it in place of God's 4th commandment. Sunday worship as we have it today is simply a man-made teaching and tradition unsupported by the scriptures.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

All the questions asked are based around providing scripture to show the claims that most Christian church's teach in regards to God’s 4th commandment and Sunday worship as it’s replacement. So in the case of question 1 it is asking where is the scripture that says..... [1]. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest? So when you say here that there is no scripture for this teaching you are correct and I agree. There is no scripture that says Gods' 4th commandment has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition handed down by the Roman Catholic Mother Church to mainstream Protestantism that is not biblical that has led many to break Gods' 4th commandment which is one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and has led many away from Gods' Word to follow man made teachings unsupported by scripture. It is interesting to note that Jesus warns us about doing this exact same thing in Matthew 15:3-9 where he says that if we follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God. This begs the question if Gods' 4th commandment which is Gods' Word and one of God's 10 commandments *Exodus 20:8-11 that gives us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20 has not been abolished and there is not a single scripture in all of God's Word in support of Sunday worship, then then who are we believing and following according to the scriptures; God or man?

Your response here...

I feel my response to this post would be the same as my response to the previous post. If there's anything in this post (or in any others) that I miss, but that you want me to respond to, feel free to let me know.

I guess the point being made in this post you were quoting from here was that you have not provided any scripture once examined that supported any of the claim being made in regards to God's 4th commandment and Sunday worship in the 22 questions posted and asked of you in post # 171 linked.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ This is repetition already addressed in a previous section, but I will touch on it again here. As posted earlier, I do not have a problem with any of these views to be honest but allow me to explain why. Firstly the book of Jubilees is not scripture it is Apocrypha of unknown origins written in between the old and the new testament scriptures. Keep in mind here I do not disagree with anything written here either. The text here starts off by saying “And the angel of the presence spake to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a sign for all His works.” This is the context of what you provided above.

So the text is not saying that the Sabbath was made at creation only for Israel. That would be in contradiction of what Jesus says in Mark 2:27 where he says that the Sabbath was made for mankind. The evidence here is that there was no Jew, no Israel, no sin, no law and no plan of salvation given when God made the Sabbath for all mankind at creation *Genesis 2:1-3. Keep in mind here there was also no nations to keep the Sabbath here only Adam and Eve the very first of all mankind. According to the scripture as shown earlier, Gods’ Word of course is only for Gods’ people.

God’s people are represented by Israel in the flesh born of the seed of Abraham in the Old Testament scriptures and Gods’ Israel in the new covenant are represented as all those who have now been born again in the Spirit to believe and follow Gods’ Word says *Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29; Galatians 3:28-29. So understanding who Gods Israel is here shows is in harmony with the scriptures showing that Gods Israel are only all those who believe and follow what Gods’ Word says. This is what the scriptures teach.

Respectfully, as shown through the scriptures already both interpretations are correct if you understand who Gods Israel represents in the old and the new covenant and that the name Israel that God gave to His people is simply a name given by God to all those who believe and follow what God’s Word says (Romans 9:6-8; Romans 2:28-29 and Galatians 3:28-29). Gods’ Word is for believers not unbelievers. According to the scriptures the name Israel and it’s use can be traced all through the old and new covenant where it simply represents all that believe and follow what Gods Word says (more scripture support here linked).

Simply, this is because there was no Sabbath before the creation of the Sabbath in Genesis 2:1-3. The root word of “Sabbath” is שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) which is translated as “rested or rest” in English from Genesis 2:2-3 and it is the verb form of Sabbath or how the Sabbath (noun) is kept by resting. The Hebrew word שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) literally means to keep the Sabbath by resting. It is how the Sabbath is kept and is a verb. The word translated at Sabbath is שַׁבָּת (shabbâth | H7676) which comes from שָׁבַת (shâbath | H7673) is the noun of what is being kept through resting and simply is a description or name of what is being kept through resting.

more to come...

Your response here...

You said, "This is repetition already addressed in a previous section," and it seems your response here has already been addressed, so I guess I can move on to the next post.

Yes I did already address your post here in a previous section. You simply repeated yourself so I just brought your attention to what I had said in addressing your earlier post.

 

[klutedavid]

Not according to the scriptures. Gods' Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) Jesus and the Apostles all taught obedience to Gods law (scripture support) and everyone of Gods' 10 commandments are repeated in the new covenant (scripture support) as a requirement for Christian living in all those who have been born of the Spirit to believe follow what God's Word says (see John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-7; Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 8:1-4; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-10; 1 John 5:2-3; Revelation 12:17: Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14. Your mixing up Gods' eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 written on stone with the finger of God *Exodus 32:16 with the Mosaic "shadow laws" written by Moses for the remission of sins pointing to Jesus as the coming Messiah and Gods' sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29 who was the true unleavened bread and Passover lamb of God *1 Corinthians 5:7 and God's plan of salvation in the new covenant and the work of Jesus as our true great high Priest that ever lives to make intercession for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22.

David, you may want to consider the scripture contexts here and the subject matter your disregarding in your interpretation of Hebrews 10:1 as it is not a reference to Gods' 10 commandments being a shadow of anything. Hebrews 9:1-27 is talking about the laws or remission of sins and the sin offerings and comparing them to the offering Jesus made with his own blood and the ratification of the old and the new covenants by blood atonement for sin not Gods' 10 commandments.

According to the scriptures, Hebrews 10:1-22 continues from Hebrews 9:1-27. So the context and subject matter your disregarding even in Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22 proves your interpretation of Hebrews 10:1 is not talking about God's 10 commandments. The context and subject matter of these scriptures is the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins in the earthly Sanctuary, the Levitical Priesthood, the laws of animal sacrifices and sin offerings to that to which they all pointed to which was Jesus as Gods' true sacrifice for sins through blood atonement and his role as our great High Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man *Hebrews 8:1-6.(see also Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27; Hebrews 10:1-22). Your disregarding context and subject matter which is not to God's 10 commandments but to the Mosaic "shadow laws" for remission of sins and the old Sanctuary that carried out these laws that was only all a copy and shadow of the new covenant and the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not mat as outlined in the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7).

Let's have a detailed look at the scriptures...

HEBREWS 10:1-10
[1], For THE LAW HAVING A SHADOW OF GOOD THINGS TO COME, AND NOT THE VERY IMAGE OF THE THINGS, CAN NEVER WITH THOSE SACRIFICES WHICH THEY OFFERED YEAR BY YEAR CONTINUALLY MAKE THE COMERS THEREUNTO PERFECT.

Note: the within scripture subject matter contexts continues from the laws of the animal sacrifices and sin offering of Hebrews 9:1-27 and the better offering of the blood of Christ. The within scripture subject matter and context is to the laws of animal sacrifices that are offered year by year.

[2], For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because THAT THE WORSHIPERS ONCE PURGED SHOULD HAVE HAD NO MORE CONSCIENCE OF SINS.
[3], But IN THOSE SACRIFICES there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
[4], For IT IS NOT POSSIBLE THAT THE BLOOD OF BULLS AND OF GOATS SHOULD TAKE AWAY SINS.

Note: context and subject matter is the laws of remission of sins through blood sacrifice.

[5], Why when he comes into the world, he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU WOULD NOT, BUT A BODY HAVE YOU PREPARED ME:
[6], IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAVE HAD NO PLEASURE.
[7], THEN SAID I, SEE, I COME IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME, TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.

Note: All these laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices from the Mosaic book of the covenant (Exodus 24:7) were “shadow laws” pointing to Jesus and are fulfilled and continued in Christ as God’s true sacrifice for the sins of the world once and for all (see Hebrews 10:10).

[8], Above when he said, SACRIFICE AND OFFERING AND BURNT OFFERINGS AND OFFERING FOR SIN YOU WOULD NOT, NEITHER HAD PLEASURE THEREIN; WHICH ARE OFFERED BY THE LAW;

Note: The context and subject matter is not Gods’ 10 commandments but the Mosaic “shadow laws” for remission of sins in animal sacrifices and sin offerings from the Mosaic book of the old covenant (see Hebrews 10:7 and Exodus 24:7) and the introduction of Jesus to who all these laws pointed to.

[9], THEN SAID HE, SEE, I COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD. HE TAKES AWAY THE FIRST, THAT HE MAY ESTABLISH THE SECOND.
[10], By the which WILL WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL.

.................

CONCLUSION: There context and subject matter of Hebrews 10:1 is to Mosiac “shadow laws” for remission of sins in the Sanctuary from the Mosiac book of the covenant (Hebrews 10:7; Exodus 24:7) not God’s 10 commandments which give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken. According to James if we break anyone of God’s 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 once God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word if we choose to reject it there remains no more sacrifice for sin (forgiveness) but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come which will devour the adversaries. God's Word does not teach lawlessness (without law).

Take Care.

Are you saying that the law (the whole law) does not grant the knowledge of sin?