Your epistemology

[Clizby WampusCat]

The existence of energy and matter.

So God exists because energy and matter exist and energy and matter exist because God exists. Got it. Circular reasoning.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I'm not interested in whether Allah exists or not.

If I were interested, and wanted to know, I would throw a prayer out there in the universe in case he does exist.
What would I have to lose?
It's not complicated.

I have done this with the God of the bible. No response.

Because he has revealed himself to me in his word written.

How did He reveal Himself to you?

 

[Clare73]

Yes. It’s like true love. Everybody refers to it, in romance books, in melodramatic movies, in Facebook posts but in life, there’s a variety of feelings and actions depending on people and situations.

Not exactly. . .one is of the Holy Spirit, the other is of many natural and different humans.

 

[Clare73]

So God exists because energy and matter exist and energy and matter exist because God exists. Got it. Circular reasoning.

Don't think you do . . .

Little less than sterling representation. . .with added faulty nomenclature.

Like the clocksmith exists because the clock exists, and the clock exists because the clocksmith exists.

 

[Clare73]

I have done this with the God of the bible. No response.

Have I addressed that with you?

How did He reveal Himself to you?

He convinced me that he is. . .and much more.

 

[ldonjohn]

Hello.

I heard many times on this forum and elsewhere, that it doesn’t matter what you like to believe or want God to be like, it’s objective truth that matters. Discover truth and if you’re satisfied it’s true, accept it. Be brave and honest enough to face truth. Great piece of advice.

But then what’s your criteria for something to be true? At which point do you say “this is true” and “that is an error” or maybe even “that’s a lie”?

There’re things we can decide more or less easily about, such as, “today’s Wednesday” or “it’s a glass”, but others not so easy - “God exists” or “Jesus is a myth”, for example.

I know there can’t be one size fits all universal approach to all and any information.

What are your approaches in regards to faith?

John 16:13, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."

Jeremiah 29: 13, "And ye shall seek me , and find me, when ye search for me with all your heart."

John 8:32, "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

The information regarding "faith" is found in the Word of God. Man cannot convince you of the truth found there. If you are genuinely looking for the truth about how to have faith that will change you from the inside out, the Gospel of John is the best book of the bible to search. You will never find the truth without the working of the Holy Spirit as He becomes the influence that guides you into that truth.

For many years I was a hard case skeptic and doubter regarding the truth of the bible. When I began to seek that truth as though finding it was more important to me than anything else in life, and then started reading the book of John, the Holy Spirit began His life changing work in my life as He gave me spiritual light so I could understand that the words I was reading were truth.

You asked, "But then what’s your criteria for something to be true? At which point do you say “this is true” and “that is an error” or maybe even “that’s a lie”?

The working influence of the Holy Spirit is the answer to your question. It is something that cannot be explained; you must experience it yourself.

Regards,

John

 

[ldonjohn]

Don't think you do . . .

Little less than sterling representation. . .with added faulty nomenclature.

Like the clocksmith exists because the clock exists, and the clock exists because the clocksmith exists.

Clare73,

I have had debates with several atheists, and they all used the "circular reasoning" excuse as their way to deny the existence of God.
My response to them was that I agree with their idea of "circular reasoning" because my journey to faith in Christ began with me doubting God's existence, and ending with God's Spirit convincing me that He is real as I searched for the truth while reading the Gospel of John. Yes, I was convinced by God Himself to believe in God.
BUT, the atheists can't understand how the Holy Spirit is the necessary link that completes the circle with a life changing revelation of God's existence and of the truth of His Word. The atheists aren't looking for the truth about God, consequently, they don't find it.

Regards,

John

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Don't think you do . . .

Little less than sterling representation. . .with added faulty nomenclature.

Like the clocksmith exists because the clock exists, and the clock exists because the clocksmith exists.

This is circular. Not a good way to determine truth.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Have I addressed that with you?

Yes and I responded, then you responded "whatever".

He convinced me that he is. . .and much more.

How did He convince you? What was the evidence that convinced you?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Clare73,

I have had debates with several atheists, and they all used the "circular reasoning" excuse as their way to deny the existence of God.

Circular reasoning is not an excuse it is a valid reason to not believe anything let alone a God claim.

My response to them was that I agree with their idea of "circular reasoning" because my journey to faith in Christ began with me doubting God's existence, and ending with God's Spirit convincing me that He is real as I searched for the truth while reading the Gospel of John. Yes, I was convinced by God Himself to believe in God.

Then why even talk about circular reasoning? Just give the evidence that God gave you.

BUT, the atheists can't understand how the Holy Spirit is the necessary link that completes the circle with a life changing revelation of God's existence and of the truth of His Word.

Then please give the evidence for the Holy Spirit.

The atheists aren't looking for the truth about God, consequently, they don't find it.

This is untrue for me at least and almost every atheist I know. I want to know if God exists and the characteristics of that God. Sounds like you believe I need the Holy Spirit to give me the evidence I need. So all I can do is wait for that evidence.

 

[James_Lai]

Circular reasoning is not an excuse it is a valid reason to not believe anything let alone a God claim.

Then why even talk about circular reasoning? Just give the evidence that God gave you.


Then please give the evidence for the Holy Spirit.

This is untrue for me at least and almost every atheist I know. I want to know if God exists and the characteristics of that God. Sounds like you believe I need the Holy Spirit to give me the evidence I need. So all I can do is wait for that evidence.

How about Allah or the wheel of Samsara? Ahura Mazda or Lord Krishna? Jehova God or Lord Jesus? The Holy Spirit or Spenta Mainyu? Satan or Shaitan? The devil or Angra Mainyu? Osiris or Set? Zeus or Jupiter? Tengri or Great Manitou? Tian or Yuhuang Shangdi? Long Wan or Nuwa? Shango or Mware? Kamilaroi or Daramulum?

The list is very long. I’ve read many books on different religions from all continents. How in the world can we have one mythology overproof another? None of them are visible to the eye, so you can keep inventing different versions of the mystical

 

[Clare73]

Clare73,

I have had debates with several atheists, and they all used the "circular reasoning" excuse as their way to deny the existence of God.
My response to them was that I agree with their idea of "circular reasoning" because my journey to faith in Christ began with me doubting God's existence, and ending with God's Spirit convincing me that He is real as I searched for the truth while reading the Gospel of John. Yes, I was convinced by God Himself to believe in God.

BUT, the atheists can't understand how the Holy Spirit is the necessary link that completes the circle with a life changing revelation of God's existence and of the truth of His Word. The atheists aren't looking for the truth about God, consequently, they don't find it.

Regards,

John

Thanks. . .I know that so well, having learned it just the way you did.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

How about Allah or the wheel of Samsara? Ahura Mazda or Lord Krishna? Jehova God or Lord Jesus? The Holy Spirit or Spenta Mainyu? Satan or Shaitan? The devil or Angra Mainyu? Osiris or Set? Zeus or Jupiter? Tengri or Great Manitou? Tian or Yuhuang Shangdi? Long Wan or Nuwa? Shango or Mware? Kamilaroi or Daramulum?

The list is very long. I’ve read many books on different religions from all continents. How in the world can we have one mythology overproof another? None of them are visible to the eye, so you can keep inventing different versions of the mystical

None of this is my problem. If a God exists I would like to know no matter what it is. It is up to the people making the claim or the particular God to provide the evidence.

 

[Clare73]

Don't think you do . . .

Little less than sterling representation. . .with added faulty nomenclature.

Like the clocksmith exists because the clock exists, and the clock exists because the clocksmith exists.

This is circular. Not a good way to determine truth.

That's what I thought. . .you don't know circular, and you don't understand the self-evident. . .which explains why you deny the existence of God.

Nope. . .the first proves that the clocksmith does exist,
and the second proves that the clocksmith cannot non-exist.

The clock proves both; i.e., the irrefutable existence of the clocksmith. . .
neither proves the existence of the clock; i.e., each does not prove the existence of the other.

And that is not circular, that is called self-evident.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

That's what I thought. . .you don't know circular, and you don't understand the self-evident.

Nope. . .the first proves that it exists, and the second proves the undeniable and irrefutable necessity for it to exist.

This is bad epistemology but it does not matter because you said you were convinced by the Holy Spirit. So what evidence did the Holy Spirit give you that convinced you?

 

[James_Lai]

None of this is my problem. If a God exists I would like to know no matter what it is. It is up to the people making the claim or the particular God to provide the evidence.

It’s an impossible task. Because you can attach any personality, any characteristics, any ideas and actions to an invisible undetectable entity. Also any rules and requirements, which is so profitable and convenient to the clergy and governments.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It’s an impossible task. Because you can attach any personality, any characteristics, any ideas and actions to an invisible undetectable entity. Also any rules and requirements, which is so profitable and convenient to the clergy and governments.

Which is why none should be believed until good evidence is presented. If a God exists it should be able to let everyone know it exists.

 

[Clare73]

Yes and I responded, then you responded "whatever".

How did He convince you? What was the evidence that convinced you?

You'll have to improve your "form" (the soundness of your platform) for me to choose to give you that answer.

 

[Clare73]

None of this is my problem. If a God exists I would like to know no matter what it is.
It is up to the people making the claim or the particular God to provide the evidence.

No one owes you an explanation or proof of anything they believe.

That's a personal choice, which they make because they want to do so, and they are not accountable to you for doing so.

You've located accountability in the wrong place. . .which again explains your unbelief.

 

[Clare73]

None of this is my problem. If a God exists I would like to know no matter what it is. It is up to the people making the claim or the particular God to provide the evidence.

That remains to be seen.