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Your epistemology

Clare73

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There is zero proof and zero evidence a God Jehova or Allah or Lord Rama exist. There are billions of believers in them all, though.

I don’t believe in any of them.

To blame a person in inability to believe is very unfair. Because
one believes only when they wish to believe or are forced to believe.
Then you don't understand human belief.

Those of sound mind trust/believe that for which they think they have evidence.
And the evidence has to be convincing only to them.
That's where choice comes in regarding whether you trust that for which you have evidence.
 
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James_Lai

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Then you don't understand human belief.

Those of sound mind trust/believe that for which they think they have evidence.
And the evidence has to be convincing only to them.
That's where choice comes in regarding whether you trust that for which you have evidence.

Regular faith/belief and religious one aren’t in the same category.
 
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Clare73

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Regular faith/belief and religious one aren’t in the same category.
Because?

Everyone else thinks he is a crook, but I give him access to my checking account when I am out of the country, based on the evidence that convinces me.

My choice. . .my risk. . .willingly accepted.
 
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James_Lai

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Because?

Everyone else thinks he is a crook, but I give him access to my checking account when I am out of the country, based on the evidence that convinces me.

My choice. . .my risk. . .willingly accepted.

Religious faith is more than “I got convinced”. For example, most believe being indoctrinated as children. Some believe in Santa or Boogieman or ghosts or ancestor spirits or God or evil eye etc. Many many stong beliefs. Not because anybody was convinced by facts. They chose to believe or were forced/pressured/influenced by the authority figures. In some countries if you don’t profess a faith, you risk beheading or other unpleasant consequences…

There’s kind of second-hand faith, because people believe “if millions think so, it must be true” or “because my mom and dad and my friends believe so it must be true”. Maladaptive herding psychologists call this human trait.

But millions or even billions can be easily mistaken. Geocentric solar system, for example
 
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ISteveB

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Hello.

I heard many times on this forum and elsewhere, that it doesn’t matter what you like to believe or want God to be like, it’s objective truth that matters. Discover truth and if you’re satisfied it’s true, accept it. Be brave and honest enough to face truth. Great piece of advice.

But then what’s your criteria for something to be true? At which point do you say “this is true” and “that is an error” or maybe even “that’s a lie”?

There’re things we can decide more or less easily about, such as, “today’s Wednesday” or “it’s a glass”, but others not so easy - “God exists” or “Jesus is a myth”, for example.

I know there can’t be one size fits all universal approach to all and any information.

What are your approaches in regards to faith?
For my experience, with regards to YHVH and Jesus, I grew weary of the debates, arguments, and discussions ABOUT God’s reality.
So, I simply asked him if he was real and if Jesus was real, or just another pile of religious bs.

There's a lot of people who have decided to do this.

It's a lot quicker and simpler than arguing or debating it.

Here's an atheist who also asked.

"God, I know surely that You do not exist. But if perchance You exist, which I contest, it is not my duty to believe in You; it is Your duty to reveal Yourself to me.”

I can provide numerous videos of people who did something similar.

Non of us actually know ifGod exists, until he makes himself known to us.
We have an inkling that there is something or someone beyond everything we can perceive, but it's more than we actually know.

So, according to Jesus, he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.
 
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James_Lai

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For my experience, with regards to YHVH and Jesus, I grew weary of the debates, arguments, and discussions ABOUT God’s reality.
So, I simply asked him if he was real and if Jesus was real, or just another pile of religious bs.

There's a lot of people who have decided to do this.

It's a lot quicker and simpler than arguing or debating it.

Here's an atheist who also asked.

"God, I know surely that You do not exist. But if perchance You exist, which I contest, it is not my duty to believe in You; it is Your duty to reveal Yourself to me.”

I can provide numerous videos of people who did something similar.

Non of us actually know ifGod exists, until he makes himself known to us.
We have an inkling that there is something or someone beyond everything we can perceive, but it's more than we actually know.

So, according to Jesus, he will not turn away anyone who comes to him.

How exactly did God reveal Himself to you?
 
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ISteveB

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How exactly did God reveal Himself to you?
Hi.
The way described in the bible.

He says in Jeremiah 24:7 that he will give us a heart to know him.

In John 14:23 we read that if we keep the teachings of Jesus, we will show that we love him and we will be loved by God, and they will come and make their home with us.

There's a lot more, but that's a starting place.
 
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Clare73

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Religious faith is more than “I got convinced”. For example, most believe being indoctrinated as children. Some believe in Santa or Boogieman or ghosts or ancestor spirits or God or evil eye etc. Many many stong beliefs. Not because anybody was convinced by facts. They chose to believe or were forced/pressured/influenced by the authority figures. In some countries if you don’t profess a faith, you risk beheading or other unpleasant consequences…

There’s kind of second-hand faith, because people believe “if millions think so, it must be true” or “because my mom and dad and my friends believe so it must be true”. Maladaptive herding psychologists call this human trait.

But millions or even billions can be easily mistaken. Geocentric solar system, for example
None of it is true faith unless "they got convinced."
 
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James_Lai

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None of it is true faith unless "they got convinced."

Not really. It’s not how it works. People are pretty complex beings. Reduction is a good model, it’s simple and easy, but life doesn’t fit in. It’s much bigger
 
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Clare73

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Not really. It’s not how it works. People are pretty complex beings. Reduction is a good model, it’s simple and easy, but life doesn’t fit in. It’s much bigger
In the NT, saving faith is simple. . .it's all the way, complete trust, or it's not saving faith.

Your notion of faith is secular, not Biblical.
It's not about faith accommodating life, it's about life accommodating faith.
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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Talk about "look a gift horse in the mouth," are you nuts, friend?
I was a believer for 25 years, then not for 15 years, then he revealed himself to me.

Maybe you need to get over your self-centered self-pity and projection of ulterior motives onto others before you are ready to even receive his revelation. . .you've disappointed me.
So you get to project motives on me in every response you posted to me and you do it below, and I don't get to? There is a name for that.

Maybe you need to approach it as if he does exist; i.e., trusting that if he does in fact exist, as God he is doing what is best for you.
This is a terrible epistemology. Believe it first then believe it because you believe it. It is also impossible to do.

Maybe you need to approach it as if Allah does exist; i.e., trusting that if Allah does in fact exist, as Allah is doing what is best for you.

or

Maybe you need to approach it as if pixies do exist; i.e., trusting that if Pixies do in fact exist, as Pixies are doing what is best for you.

Your thinking this is not a possibility with him is revealing.
I never said this. I actually said I am open to God existing. It is all about the evidence and not anything else. You are the one telling me you know my motives here and you got all mad when I did it to you.
What other choice do you have?

This is sure better than your current course of self-focus.
No it is not and I explained why above. How is searching for the truth and wanting God to respond self focused.

Why do you believe God exists?
 
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Clizby WampusCat

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I do. . .from the same place all creation came from, seeing as how it is made of energy.
Please show me where and the evidence you have to support your claim?
 
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Irkle Berserkle

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There is, of course, some ultimate reality. The ontological truth is out there. Even if naturalistic atheism were the truth about ultimate reality, this couldn't be objectively known in this lifetime. Ditto for the Christian and Buddhist claims as well, of course.

Individuals can only reach a level of conviction. Those who claim to "know" - typically religious believers - are talking about an "inner knowing" that is really a strong conviction rather than actual knowledge and that carries no particular weight with anyone else. Even if I'm utterly convinced those voices in my head are the Holy Spirit, there is simply no way I can objectively know this.

I believe the effort to reach a strong level of conviction will take into account an individual's experiences, observations, studies, reflection on all the foregoing, and lastly intuition. (Many sages across many traditions have said intuition is the ultimate form of knowledge.) Experiences may or may not include some the individual regards as supernatural or even as revelations from God.

Each individual must decide for himself or herself which areas of study are most relevant and what types of evidence will be allowed and considered. When you examine peoples' belief systems, you often find their convictions were really more like self-fulfilling prophecies. Their focus was so narrow, and what they were willing to consider was so limited, that the end result (be it atheism or theism) could have been predicted from the start.

To me, the threshold issue is deciding between naturalism and "something more" as the ultimate nature of reality. (Even many atheists are in the "something more" camp.) Once you arrive at a level of conviction on this, the next issue is whether atheism, deism or theism has the greater explanatory power for reality as you believe it to be. If your conviction inclines you toward theism, then you must decide which of the theistic alternatives has the greatest explanatory power and seems intuitively to be most likely to be true. You then put your faith in that alternative, and hopefully your conviction will deepen as you live it.

Obviously, most people don't do all this as any sort of formal process. Many - perhaps most - simply cling to the indoctrination they received as children or hold their beliefs more on the basis of cultural conditioning, social or economic considerations, or simply what they find appealing. Many, atheists and theists alike, hold their beliefs almost mindlessly. Others really do engage in a quest.

I had a startling and unexpected born-again experience when I was 19. It triggered my spiritual quest but could just as easily have short-circuited it. I could've simply dived into Christianity and never looked back. I did, however, realize this one experience wasn't enough for the level of conviction I wanted. This was partly due, I'm sure, to the fact my inirial experiences were with a rigidly fundamentalist ministry, and I found myself having to pretend to believe things I deeply questioned.

So I stepped back to square one and engaged, semi-formally, in just the sort of quest I describe above. Perhaps three decades later, I had arrived as a really strong level of conviction and fully accepted my born-again experience for what it had first seemed.

For close to 20 years now, the epistemology of belief has been my primary focus. As you may know, the controversial Reformed Epistemology of Alvin Plantinga requires no evidence at all or any quest whatsoever. Plantinga maintains Christian beliefs can have warrant (i.e., be epistemologically justified) simply on the basis of a rational response to the sense of the divine (sensus divinitatis) all people have and the internal witness of the Holy Spirit. I don't disagree, but I'm more concerned with having strong convictions about my Christian beliefs than simply being able to assert that they aren't irrational.

I just skimmed some of the above posts, but I'm seeing some of the debate that always occurs in discussions of this sort. Naturalistic atheists insist there is "no evidence" for God. They typically insist upon a narrow definition of "evidence" that essentially means "falsifiable scientific evidence" and effectively eliminates human experience and mountains of experiential evidence, not to mention all philosophy and theology. Even science doesn't limit itself to the extent a naturalistic atheist insists theists must do. Naturalistic atheists place themselves in the intellectual straitjacket of philosophical naturalism, whereby theism is simply not allowed. Most of us simply decline to place ourselves in this straitjacket.

I found that scientific evidence from the fields of physics, cosmology, neuroscience, consciousness studies, PSI research and other areas greatly aided me in my quest. No, none of it "proved" the existence of God, but much of it pointed in that direction and was difficult to explain in naturalistic terms. This is the entire point of the Intelligent Design movement - i.e., some really compelling scientific evidence points to a designer as the inference to the best explanation. Those wedded to the paradigm of philosophical naturalism have no alternative but to attempt to shout down ID because a non-naturalistic designer is simply not allowed.
 
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James_Lai

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In the NT, saving faith is simple. . .it's all the way, complete trust, or it's not saving faith.

Your notion of faith is secular, not Biblical.
It's not about faith accommodating life, it's about life accommodating faith.

I hear you and I understand you. It’s not what actually happens with people. Ideals are great, but the problem with ideals they do not actually exist.

I once created a topic here about Salvation, and received many very different opinions. Even within one church there could be opposing views on faith.


It’s never as simple as ABC
 
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Clare73

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So you get to project motives on me in every response you posted to me and you do it below, and I don't get to? There is a name for that.
This is a terrible epistemology. Believe it first then believe it because you believe it. It is also impossible to do.
Maybe you need to approach it as if Allah does exist; i.e., trusting that if Allah does in fact exist, as Allah is doing what is best for you.
I'm not interested in whether Allah exists or not.

If I were interested, and wanted to know, I would throw a prayer out there in the universe in case he does exist.
What would I have to lose?
It's not complicated.
or

Maybe you need to approach it as if pixies do exist; i.e., trusting that if Pixies do in fact exist, as Pixies are doing what is best for you.

I never said this. I actually said I am open to God existing. It is all about the evidence and not anything else. You are the one telling me you know my motives here and you got all mad when I did it to you.
What other choice do you have?
No it is not and I explained why above. How is searching for the truth and wanting God to respond self focused.
Whatever. . .
Why do you believe God exists?
Because he has revealed himself to me in his word written.
 
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Clare73

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I hear you and I understand you. It’s not what actually happens with people. Ideals are great, but the problem with ideals they do not actually exist.
I once created a topic here about Salvation, and received many very different opinions. Even within one church there could be opposing views on faith.
It’s never as simple as ABC
It is when it is true faith.
 
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James_Lai

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It is when it is true faith.

Yes. It’s like true love. Everybody refers to it, in romance books, in melodramatic movies, in Facebook posts but in life, there’s a variety of feelings and actions depending on people and situations.
 
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