Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

You should know that God will gather them back when He returns. If not, you need to study before debating.

Show your Scriptures, if they exist. The texts Pretribbers normally show are all OT that were fulfilled when Israel returned to Palestine after the Exile and for the Messiah coming. There are no land promises in the NT. Jesus never taught anything about land promises to national Israel; Paul never mentioned any. None of the New Testament writers did so. While the land was obviously significant during the Old Testament era, it is entirely insignificant in the New Testament. The New Testament reverses the narrow and provincial focus of the Old Testament and broadens it out with a new concern for all nations. The sole focus of the New Testament is Christ and the expanse of the Gospel from the little land of Israel to the whole world.

Jesus made it clear in the Beatitudes that his focus was on the whole earth, and not simply the land of Israel, saying: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Matthew 5:5). Paul confirms this in Romans 4.13, speaking about Abraham, the great father of the faithful, saying: “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

The hope of Israel was/is Christ. Not real estate in the Middle East.

 

[power1]

Read 2 Thess 1 if you are still not convinced of it happening the same time / day.

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you think this means. However, of course when Jesus returns He will take over the world, slay His enemies and etc. Some will pay right then and there. However,
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

If all were raised when Jesus returned a 1000 years before this, then where did all these dead come from that get judged!?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No. The church is not even mentioned after Rev 4 until we see it in heaven later at the end of the book. There is no church on earth when Israel gets saved.

I've seen this claim before and it is possibly the most ridiculous claim that anyone can possibly make regarding the book of Revelation. It can't be taken seriously.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Who else are "their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as" the souls John saw were except for the church?

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Who else but the church are those "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ"?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Who else but those in the church would be called "the saints"?

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Then there's this:

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Who else but those in the church are the saints "that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus"?

 

[power1]

More avoidance! Your doctrine obviously does not abide scriptural scrutiny. There is no teaching in Holy Writ on (1) a rapture of the Church,

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation

If the tribulation is the wrath of God, we are not part of that.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ in the passage.

Jesus does return to earth with His saints and stands on the mount of Olives and destroys His enemies that have gathered.

Do you need verses for that?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No. By church one usually means believers in Jesus, and more specifically those who came to believe in Him between the first coming and the Rapture! Saints in the millennium and the Trib are not the church any more than Noah was the church.

No, the church is those who believe in Jesus. Period. No matter when someone believes in Jesus they are part of the church. You're making up a doctrine that is not remotely taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If the tribulation is the wrath of God, we are not part of that.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

We all believe that there will be a rapture and that God's wrath will come down. That is not what you're being asked to show. You're being asked to show where scripture teaches that a 7 year period of God's wrath occurs after the rapture. So, do you have any scripture to support that?

The only time when we would need to be taken off of the earth is when the entire earth is burned up when Christ returns (2 Peter 3:10-13). There is nothing anywhere in scripture to indicate that we would need to be taken off of the earth years before that.

 

[jeffweedaman]

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.

[ Quote power1 ] Not sure what you think this means. [/QUOTE]


It means when Jesus comes he will execute eternal punishment and reward on that day he glorifies us.

Your interpretation of Rev 20 clearly contradicts this plain scripture that vengeance and glorification happen on the day Jesus appears.

Therefore the correct way to rightly divide Rev 20 is to see the first resurrection as Jesus own resurrection..., and those who partake of it not coming into judgment and escaping the second death.., as Jn 5 teaches.


Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

This is the first resurrection Participate in this reality now and you will in no way come into the judgment of the second death at the GWT.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

No. The church is gone. The new believers will be Tribulation saints and that will include in the end, all Israel!

Scripture does not teach anything about "Tribulation saints" who are not part of the church. That is a farfetched theory that has no scriptural support whatsoever.

 

[power1]

Where does scripture teach anything about a judgment day for nations? Are you sure you're reading Matthew 25:31-46 carefully?

Revelation 11:18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Do you think entire nations will inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world? If so, where does scripture teach that concept? I see it taught often regarding individuals, but not nations.

Don't conflate passages and events.

Do you think entire nations will be cast into "everlasting fire" to experience "everlasting punishment" in the place prepared for the devil and his angels? if so, where does scripture teach that concept? I see it taught regarding individuals, but not nations.

You seem to pretend I said this? Try debating honestly.

If Amillennialism is false doctrine, then why are you not able to refute it? Honestly, I find your arguments to be incredibly weak.

If the tooth fairy is made up why would we not bother 'refuting' her?

The scoffers scoff leading up to His second coming and then the fire comes down when He comes. Where do you see any indication whatsoever in 2 Peter 3 that the earth is burne up long after His coming? There is none!

That depends if the day of the Lord is that few hours after He first returns, or a time period.

What are you talking about? When exactly do you think the day of the Lord begins and how long does it last?

It includes Jesus returning on up to the end of the 1000 years, and maybe a bit more.

That means He comes after the thousand years.

False. He is already here then.

Peter said very clearly in 2 Peter 3:13 that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of His second coming.

That does not mean that the heavens are made new when Jesus returns! That is part of what will eventually happen after He comes. We do look forward to it.

Paul indicated in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night and will result in sudden destruction from which "they shall not escape".

Simple. The Rapture comes without warning as a surprise. Then they face sudden destruction and great Tribulation such as was never seen before.

Where is there any indication in 2 Peter 3 that the earth will be burned up long after Christ returns?

We already know when the earth is made new and burned. No question there about it. Hint: whenever that is mentioned, KNOW that it is talking about the end of the 1000 years.

Tell me why Peter warned his readers about how they were living their lives in anticipation of the day of the Lord if the fiery destruction he talked about wasn't something that could potentially happen in their lifetimes.

Because we all need to be ready for His coming.

Yes, He will. But, what you're not getting is that everyone else (believers) will be changed and have immortal bodies at that point. That doesn't leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.

I don't concur. What are the nations He rules over, aliens? What is Israel that was saved, bugs?

Where does scripture teach that? Are you assuming that none of the sheep or goats will have been resurrected just because it doesn't spell that out for you in the text? Where does scripture teach that there will be more than one judgment day? Instead it teaches that God has set a single day to judge the world (Acts 17:31). I have shown scripture which only speaks of one judgment day. The onus is on you to show scripture which teaches that there will be more than one future judgment day. Good luck with that.

That all depends if one lumps together all events in the day of the Lord into a lunch break sized time period. You apparently do. That seems to be why you are hopelessly confused.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Of course that day is coming and we know when it is. What about it?

Why do you believe in two (or more) future hours/times when the dead will be resurrected? Do you somehow know something that Jesus didn't know? He said there is one future hour/time when all of the dead will be resurrected.

That time is NOT hours after He returns but 1000 years.

 

[sovereigngrace]

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If the tribulation is the wrath of God, we are not part of that.
1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 says: “For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Where in the Bible does it say that a seven-year tribulation is the wrath of God? You are just making this up as you go.

Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly and unprepared in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that we are told none escape ("they shall not escape"). This couldn't be clearer. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of survivors or a subsequent 7yrs trib.

Paul, speaking expressly to God's people about this wholesale destruction, comforts them: "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." What day? Plainly, and contextually, he is speaking about "the day of the Lord." He is describing "the coming of the Lord." Why does that day not "overtake" them "as a thief"? Because they are prepared. They are ready, watching and waiting for their Lord's return. After describing the awful terror of "the day of the Lord," he solemnly admonishes the “brethren” in Thessalonica in a distinctly inclusive way “let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.” And continues, “let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love.” Paul does not dissociate the Church from this day, rather the opposite, but warns it against being sleepy when it arrives. The whole Church (“wake or sleep” or alive/dead in Christ) is at this stage rescued from the “sudden destruction” for the expressed reason that “God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” Those that belong to Christ are immediately and in total rescued before this final and “sudden” annihilation.

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

Furthermore, the word rendered “sudden” in 1 Thessalonians 5:3 is the Greek word aifnídios meaning unawares, and the accompanying word olethros used here means ruin, death and/or destruction. Therefore, we can deduce from this reading that the Lord’s Coming sees the ‘unexpected ruin or destruction’ of all those left behind at the catching away.

The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – . Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction.

Jesus does return to earth with His saints and stands on the mount of Olives and destroys His enemies that have gathered.

Do you need verses for that?

I know all the verses that Pretribbers misapply. I used to be a Pretribber until my eyes were opened, like many on this board

 

[power1]

A very basic study of the passage will show that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 carries no support for the Pretrib paradigm

False. Maybe if you didn't spam verses that you like to colour and imagine it all happens the same afternoon, you might get somewhere.

The coming of the Lord is shown throughout Scripture to be both sudden and noisy.

So? You think all noise has to happen the same morning or evening?

This text proves that Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.”

Right, we hear the trumpet. That does not mean all people on earth do!

This trumpet will sound and activate the rescue of the elect of God from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies it.

That destruction that follows is not for us! We are gone.

Importantly, Paul is speaking here to Christians. He is exhorting the Thessalonian church to be attentive as this final day approaches. He urges them to be ready, watch and prepare. In doing so, he demolishes the Pretrib notion of two separate future comings of the Lord separated by seven years.

No. Being always ready to meet Him does not mean He will not take us in the air to be with Him. Nothing remotely similar.

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.”

Right, the world below is in for it. We are not destined for His wrath.

 

[power1]

Show your Scriptures, if they exist. The texts Pretribbers normally show are all OT that were fulfilled when Israel returned to Palestine after the Exile and for the Messiah coming. There are no land promises in the NT. Jesus never taught anything about land promises to national Israel; Paul never mentioned any. None of the New Testament writers did so. While the land was obviously significant during the Old Testament era, it is entirely insignificant in the New Testament. The New Testament reverses the narrow and provincial focus of the Old Testament and broadens it out with a new concern for all nations. The sole focus of the New Testament is Christ and the expanse of the Gospel from the little land of Israel to the whole world.

Jesus made it clear in the Beatitudes that his focus was on the whole earth, and not simply the land of Israel, saying: “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth” (Matthew 5:5). Paul confirms this in Romans 4.13, speaking about Abraham, the great father of the faithful, saying: “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”

The hope of Israel was/is Christ. Not real estate in the Middle East.

That is what they get when they get saved. They also get that land as promised.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Simple. The Rapture comes without warning as a surprise. Then they face sudden destruction and great Tribulation such as was never seen before.

This is a typical contradiction in Pretrib. How can there be “sudden destruction” to such a wholesale degree that none escape ("they shall not escape"). This totally forbids the Pretrib theory of survivors or a subsequent 7yrs trib.

 

[power1]

No, the church is those who believe in Jesus. Period. No matter when someone believes in Jesus they are part of the church. You're making up a doctrine that is not remotely taught anywhere in scripture.

So the folks in the ark were the church!?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

We come TO Christ before He comes to the earth. We meet in the air.

Why do you think we will meet Him in the air if we're taken to heaven after that, as you believe? Why wouldn't we just be taken directly to heaven instead of meeting Him in the air in that case?

 

[power1]

We all believe that there will be a rapture and that God's wrath will come down. That is not what you're being asked to show. You're being asked to show where scripture teaches that a 7 year period of God's wrath occurs after the rapture. So, do you have any scripture to support that?

Simple. As explained the only question is whether that last seven years is the wrath of God. Is it?

 

[sovereigngrace]

False. Maybe if you didn't spam verses that you like to colour and imagine it all happens the same afternoon, you might get somewhere.


So? You think all noise has to happen the same morning or evening?


Right, we hear the trumpet. That does not mean all people on earth do!

That destruction that follows is not for us! We are gone.

No. Being always ready to meet Him does not mean He will not take us in the air to be with Him. Nothing remotely similar.
Right, the world below is in for it. We are not destined for His wrath.

Again, as is your pattern: zero Scripture and reams of personal opinion. This does not cut it. You also avoid the numerous holes in your theory. You do not seem to have a desire to address the sacred text, preferring to present what you have been taught over what the inspired text teaches. That is because you have to. It is unbiblical.

Who said the wrath of God is upon us. That is the final wrath that destroys the wicked after we are rescued. Where in the Bible does it say that a seven-year tribulation is the wrath of God? You are just making this up as you go.

 

[power1]

It means when Jesus comes he will execute eternal punishment and reward on that day he glorifies us.

Not for the dead in the sea and hell and etc. The only way you could be confused into lumping that all together is by thinking the period know as the day of the Lord. (also called in those days or in that day in prophesies) was one single event in a part of one single day. Therein lies your problem.

Your interpretation of Rev 20 clearly contradicts this plain scripture that vengeance and glorification happen on the day Jesus appears.

False. There will be vengeance when Jesus returns. Not on us of course. And not on the rest of the dead that get judged after the 1000 years.

Therefore the correct way to rightly divide Rev 20 is to see the first resurrection as Jesus own resurrection..., and those who partake of it not coming into judgment and escaping the second death.., as Jn 5 teaches.

Jack hammering Scripture to fit your preconceived confused pet doctrines is not rightly dividing anything.

Jn 5
24 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

That is what happens when we get saved. Nothing to do with your miscomprehension of the day of the Lord.

25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.

Being dead in sin is fixed when we hear the truth and get saved, then we are alive and well.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Simple. As explained the only question is whether that last seven years is the wrath of God. Is it?

No. How can it? Where does it teach this? Nowhere! You have presented nothing yet.

Scripture shows it is “sudden destruction” and "they shall not escape." You have no answer to this. This demolishes the Pretrib theory.

 

[power1]

I know all the verses that Pretribbers misapply. I used to be a Pretribber until my eyes were opened, like many on this board

So you know the verses. OK.