Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[Timtofly]

Is this a literal or figurative thousand?

Do we go with context, or just flat out declare every usage of "a thousand" as figurative?

Can you actually find one usage of the word you do accept as literal to show you are not biased?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

What makes us certain that Mat 25 somehow means that the final judgment is not after the 1000 years?

What? I don't understand your question.

Either it refers to that, or there is also a judgment from Jesus at His return. In either case that has nothing to do with there being no 1000 years!

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly occurs at His return because it talks about Him coming with His angels. So, if that's the final judgment then what does that tell you about the timing of the thousand years in relation to His return?

I am not familiar with those terms. I think that means Jesus first returns and then rules for 1000 years? If so, yes, of course that is what the bible says.

Premillennialism is the belief that the thousand years occurs after Jesus returns. Amillennialism is the belief that the thousand years is an actual period of time but that the word "thousand" is figurative and represents the time period that began with Christ's resurrection since that is when He began to reign (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22). And that time period lasts up until Satan's little season which Amillennialism sees as occurring just before the second coming of Christ.

2 Peter 3:7
But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
That is after the 1000 years as we know from other places in the bible.

And in the following verse in that chapter it is also talking of the same thing.
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

That is after the milennium. Not when Jesus returns to rule and lands on the mount of Olives. That means that the period called the day of the Lord is not one single minute or hour or day. It has to be a period of time. In that day (at the end of it) after the 1000 years, the earth is burned and made new.

Where is there any indication in 2 Peter 3 that the day of the Lord is a period of time longer than a day?

The context of 2 Peter 3:3-13 is established in verses 3 and 4.

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Notice that it talks about scoffers scoffing at the promise of His second coming. They think He should have come already if He was going to come, but they are ignorant.

Keeping in mind that Peter is talking about the second coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3:3-4, he then wrote this:

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Peter indicated that these last days scoffers are ignorant of the global flood that occurred long ago. And then he indicated that "the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire". So, he was talking about another destruction event that he compared directly in scope to the global flood, except this time the global destruction will occur by way of fire instead of water. And, again, this is in relation to the second coming of Christ. He didn't change the subject that he established in verses 3 and 4 in verse 5.

Then in verses 8 and 9 he explains that the Lord is not being slow concerning the fulfillment of the promise of His coming as some, like those last days scoffers, might think, because time is irrelevant to the Lord.

Then he wrote this:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Peter did not change the subject in verse 10. Starting in verse 3, the context is all about the second coming of Christ and things that would relate to the fulfillment of the promise of His coming. So, the day of the Lord is not some period of time like you think, it is the day that Jesus will return. On that day the heavens and earth will be burned up, as Peter indicated.

There's no basis for thinking that will happen 1000+ years after Christ returns. Peter gave no such indication of that at all. Instead, he told his readers that it was important for them to be careful about what they talked about and about living godly lives in anticipation of the arrival of the day of the Lord. Why would Peter say that to his readers if he was talking about something that wouldn't even happen until 1000+ years after the return of Christ? That would make no sense.

That Christ would burn up the heavens and the earth when He returns, which obviously would destroy all of the wicked, lines up perfectly with what Jesus Himself said will happen when He comes.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Jesus associated heaven and earth passing away with His second coming and He indicated that just as the flood destroyed all of the wicked in Noah's day, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". The wicked will all be destroyed when He comes as well. Which makes sense since the entire earth will be burned up.

Notice in 2 Peter 3:13 that Peter indicates that "we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". That means the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth is "according to his promise". What promise? The promise of His second coming (2 Peter 3:4). So, that places the timing of the ushering in of the new heavens and new earth at His second coming and not 1000+ years later.

Great, so we get no rewards in that judgment in heaven?

What judgment in heaven? Tell me what scripture talks about some judgment occurring in heaven.

Jesus does not take over the world when He returns, destroying all enemies? (that is a judgment)

Sure, He does, but He will deliver His kingdom, which does not come with observation and is not of this world, to the Father at that point (1 Corinthians 15:22-24).

Matthew 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
That seems to be that final judgment day when the dead are raised to be judged. Of course that is not the saved dead. That is after the 1000 years as the bible says.

So, the day of judgment Jesus mentioned there is somehow a different day of judgment than John wrote about in the following verse?

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

That could be talking about when He returns to rule, and/or in the days before when the world is being judged in wrath. In those days we need boldness (those believers that are left and alive then). When He judges the wicked at the end in the final great judgment, why would we need to be bold then?

We all have to stand before Christ to give an account of ourselves (Romans 14:10-12), so it has to do with having boldness when giving an account of ourselves. We don't want to be ashamed when we stand before Him, we want to have the confidence that we can give an account of ourselves without being ashamed of ourselves.

Matthew 25:31-46 is very clear that both the saved and the lost will stand before Him when He comes and will be judged at the same time. The idea of multiple judgment days is simply not taught in scripture.

There is the seat of Christ when rewards are handed out after the Marriage Supper. Does that count? There is Jesus wiping out all enemies when He returns, does that count? If not, then all that is left is that great final judgment.

That will all happen when He returns. He is not going to descend from heaven twice in the future as you apparently believe. That is not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[DavidPT]

What you're not getting, and what I've tried to explain to you many times before, is that we don't see Satan's binding as a case of him being completely incapacitated and unable to deceive anyone at all in any way, shape or form as Premils do. Do you understand that?.

Trust me, I get all of that. But none of that has any relevance to the point I have been trying to make.

My point is this. After satan is loosed he goes out to deceive the masses. Per Amil these would already be deceived during the thousand years before he even sets out to deceive them after the thousand years. Thus an overkill, so to speak---deceiving masses that are already deceived to begin with.

Per Premil these would no longer be deceived(during the thousand years), but were deceived at one time(before the thousand years), and then will be deceived yet again(after the thousand years).

Adam almost lived an entire thousand years, and he was a mortal when he did so. It is then not unreasonable, assuming there is a literal thousand years post the 2nd coming, that surviving mortals(Zechariah 14:16-19) could still be physically alive a thousand years later when satan's little season begins. Adam lived almost a thousand years outside of the garden, not inside, but not that you might dispute that.

Do you understand that Amils have a very different understanding of Satan's binding than Premils do? You act as if you don't understand that for some inexplicable reason despite being told the difference many times before. Our understanding of his binding relates to him being restrained from keeping the world in spiritual darkness and keeping the gospel from spreading throughout the world while shining the light of Christ on the world along with the hope of eternal life.

None of this has any relevance to the point I have been trying to make. And yes, for the most part I do understand those things if assuming Amil, though I disagree with interpreting things in that manner.

I see the falling away that Paul wrote about in 2 Thess 2 as something that occurs during Satan's little season because the gospel is largely being muted during that time which results in many people falling away and following after false religions and philosophies instead. .

On the surface I can see the logic in this, except it turns out it is not as logical as it first seems if one factors in the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship the beast with the head that has the deadly wound, and is healed. That places the time of this beast prior to the thousand years, not after. I don't disagree with your conclusions involving 2 Thessalonians 2 except for it pertaining to satan's little season after the thousand years. Other than that I think we are basically somewhat on the same page involving 2 Thessalonians 2.

 

[power1]

My main point is that you have no corroboration for all of the main tenets of your position anywhere in Scripture. Where is your support? Premil somehow extrapolates two distinct physical future resurrection days (the first for the righteous, the second for the wicked) separated by a literal 1000 years+ out of Rev 20. Where in Scripture does it even mention "resurrection days" (plural)

No idea you just made that up.

, pertaining to the end? Nowhere! What Scripture (including Revelation 20) teaches there are two distinct future judgement days (that will see all mankind stand before Christ to give account for their lives) separated by a literal 1000 years+?

The final judgment is at the end of the 1000 years, that is clear. Any other judging is before that.
Revelation 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection

After this we have the final judgment

Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Revelation 20:13
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Nothing secret or complicated about it.

 

[power1]

Which Israel? True Israel or Christ-rejecting Israel?

The remnant that all get saved in the end. That will be the only one there will be.

 

[sovereigngrace]

No idea you just made that up.

You avoided every issue. You failed to address my enquiries. That is Premil in a nutshell. It simply doesn't fit.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Trust me, I get all of that.

You don't act like it.

But none of that has any relevance to the point I have been trying to make.

It should. You keep making points as if Amils understood Satan's binding the same way Premils do, which doesn't make any sense.

My point is this. After satan is loosed he goes out to deceive the masses.

According to Premil, not Amil. You are showing once again that you're missing the point. You are still thinking that Amil has to interpret it as though he was previously unable to deceive at all and then he is able to deceive after he is loosed. That is NOT how Amil understands his binding. It's clear to me now that I could explain this to you literally a thousand times and you still won't get it. I give up on that. I'm not going to try to explain it to you again after this post.

Per Amil these would already be deceived during the thousand years before he even sets out to deceive them after the thousand years.

Amil does not say he is setting out to deceive them who are already deceived. Amil is saying that he aims to silence the preaching of the gospel during his little season and the way he does that is by uniting unbelievers in opposition against the church with the goal of destroying the church. Through the NT time period, not all unbelievers actively oppose the church. Some are indifferent towards the church. But, Satan aims to make all of them actively oppose the church in an effort to completely destroy the church and to silence the preaching of the gospel.

Thus an overkill, so to speak---deceiving masses that are already deceived to begin with.

Again, Amil is not saying that he is loosed to deceive people who are already deceived. No matter how many times I tell you this, it doesn't get through to you. You want to force Amil to have the same understanding of Satan's binding as Premil does, but we don't! Why can't you understand that?

None of this has any relevance to the point I have been trying to make. And yes, for the most part I do understand those things if assuming Amil, though I disagree with interpreting things in that manner.

That's fine if you disagree, but if you want to refute Amil, and particularly our understanding of Satan's binding, then you should do so based on our understanding of Satan's binding and not the Premil understanding of his binding. But, you just don't seem to understand that.

On the surface I can see the logic in this, except it turns out it is not as logical as it first seems if one factors in the saints recorded in Revelation 20:4 who are martyred for refusing to worship the beast with the head that has the deadly wound, and is healed. That places the time of this beast prior to the thousand years, not after.

I don't know what you're saying here. But, we've discussed the beast plenty before so you should know what I believe about that by now.

 

[power1]

For example, let us establish a few absolutes about this familiar passage before progressing further.

(1) This is referring to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.
(2) Christ is coming in final and majestic glory to execute judgment.
(3) The Lord only encounters two types of people when He returns.

So will we since we the saints return with Him! There will be the new believers, including the saved Israel, and there will be the wicked trying to fight Him that will be judged and destroyed.

(4) These are both judged at His appearing.

The saved are already judged to be saved! They will simply be divided from the wicked. Just as we were with the Rapture before this. Just as the saints surrounded by the wicked after the thousand years probably will also be. That has nothing to do with the wicked dead of all ages being raised to be judged.

(5) One group is portrayed as righteous and is the subject of blessing and reward.
(6) The other group is portrayed as wicked and is the subject of God’s wrath and punished.

Indeed, the foolish wicked that fight Him when He returns (or gather thinking they could fight Him) will be punished pronto!

(7) They are before the exact same throne at the exact same time.

Great, but they will be dead! They are going to be destroyed and Jesus will take over this world.

(8) There is no gap of time in-between the judgment of the righteous and the judgment of the wicked.

Not for the ones who He slays when He returns, no. The rest of the dead though will be raised after the 1000 years of course.

(9) The good receive eternal life.

They sure do

(10) The bad obtain eternal punishment.

Right. And the bad of all ages who are dead will not be who Jesus kills and judges when He returns right away.

Simple

We should remember here that the whole context of this reading zeroes in on the matter of “the promise of his coming.” This promise is what this whole narrative is about. To ignore that would cause us to miss the force and meaning of Peter’s message. In fact there are 3 mentions of this “promise” in 2 Peter 3.

Before He actually returns of course people are still talking about how He promised TO return one day. So?

We see the last of three references to God’s “promise” in verse 13. In it Peter describes the events that accompany Christ’s return as a thief. Whilst this day brings terror to the wicked, he reassures the believer that Christ’s coming is a day that we should anticipate with hope, as “we, according to his promise (“the promise of his coming”), look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.” God’s people “according to His promise” are going to be ushered unto the new perfected earth when He appears – a hope that should bring joy and comfort to the heart of every believer.

Of course the believers of that day in the Tribulation period will look forward to His return. Just as we now look forward to that blessed day when He gathers us to be with Him. The folks at the end of the 1000 years will look forward also, no doubt, to Him saving them from the wicked who encamped around them!

 

[jeffweedaman]

Trust me, I get all of that. But none of that has any relevance to the point I have been trying to make.

My point is this. After satan is loosed he goes out to deceive the masses. Per Amil these would already be deceived during the thousand years before he even sets out to deceive them after the thousand years.

Per Amill = , the thousand=now.
That means he sets out to deceive and delude "in all power" at the very end of the Gospel preaching age. Not your proposed future thousand which = then , future.

Those who did not come to love the truth and so be saved during this age will perish and be forever judged through the unrestraining activity of satan in all power to fully reveal the ...." man of sin ".


2Thess 2
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed. 8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.



Amill believes there are no people left to deceive post second coming as Gods deluding influence was designed to lead those who are perishing into the judgment at his second coming.

 

[sovereigngrace]

The remnant that all get saved in the end. That will be the only one there will be.

The only remnant?

 

[sovereigngrace]

So will we since we the saints return with Him! There will be the new believers, including the saved Israel, and there will be the wicked trying to fight Him that will be judged and destroyed.



The saved are already judged to be saved! They will simply be divided from the wicked. Just as we were with the Rapture before this. Just as the saints surrounded by the wicked after the thousand years probably will also be. That has nothing to do with the wicked dead of all ages being raised to be judged.
Indeed, the foolish wicked that fight Him when He returns (or gather thinking they could fight Him) will be punished pronto!

Great, but they will be dead! They are going to be destroyed and Jesus will take over this world.

Not for the ones who He slays when He returns, no. The rest of the dead though will be raised after the 1000 years of course.

They sure do

Right. And the bad of all ages who are dead will not be who Jesus kills and judges when He returns right away.

Simple

Before He actually returns of course people are still talking about how He promised TO return one day. So?
Of course the believers of that day in the Tribulation period will look forward to His return. Just as we now look forward to that blessed day when He gathers us to be with Him. The folks at the end of the 1000 years will look forward also, no doubt, to Him saving them from the wicked who encamped around them!

(1) Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

(2) The elect of God, to a man, are immediately rescued to meet Him, as in Noah and Lot’s day (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Philippians 3:11-12,20-21, 1 Corinthians 15:12-28,42-57, 2 Corinthians 1:9-10, Hebrews 11:39-40).

(3) The wicked, to a man, are immediately destroyed, as in Noah and Lot’s day (Joel 2:1-3, Joel 2:10-11, Isaiah 13:6-12, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 3:12, Luke 17:27-30, I Thessalonians 5:2-4, II Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 2:5-9, Revelation 19:17-21).

(4) Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

(5) The heavens elements and the earth and the works that are therein shall be ‘burned up utterly and consumed wholly’ (Joel 1:15, Joel 2:1-3, 10-11, Isaiah 24:19-21, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8-10, Isaiah 65:17, 66:22, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:13-14, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 16:17-21, 2 Peter 3:7-13, Revelation 20:11, 21:1-3).

(6) The New Jerusalem then comes down upon the new earth (John 14:1-3, Revelation 21:1-4).

(7) The wicked are then raised (Daniel 12:1-3, Matthew 12:41-42, Luke 11:31, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15) for judgment.

(8) Both the wicked and the righteous are brought before the same throne of God for the final judgment (Matthew 13:24-30, 39-43, 47-50, 25:14, 19-30 Acts 17:31 Romans 2:5-16, 2 Timothy 4:1-8 Jude 1:14-15 Revelation 11:18, 20:12-13, 22:12).

(9) The wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire forever (Matthew 13:24-30, 39-43, 47-50, 25:14, 19-30, Rev 20:15)

(10) The righteous experience the new Jerusalem in all its glory enter unto the new earth (John 14:1-3, Revelation 21:1-4) where they will live forever.

 

[power1]

Matthew 25:31-46 clearly occurs at His return because it talks about Him coming with His angels. So, if that's the final judgment then what does that tell you about the timing of the thousand years in relation to His return?

So He is judging nations at that time. Not the dead. Simple. The dead are raised to be judged after the 1000 years.

Premillennialism is the belief that the thousand years occurs after Jesus returns.

That is correct.

Amillennialism is the belief that the thousand years is an actual period of time but that the word "thousand" is figurative and represents the time period that began with Christ's resurrection since that is when He began to reign (Matthew 28:18, Ephesians 1:19-22). And that time period lasts up until Satan's little season which Amillennialism sees as occurring just before the second coming of Christ.

That is false doctrine.

Where is there any indication in 2 Peter 3 that the day of the Lord is a period of time longer than a day?

2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
From other places in the bible, we know exactly when that is. After the 1000 years. No doubt.

The context of 2 Peter 3:3-13 is established in verses 3 and 4.

No. Those veres are still way back in the Trib, talking about scoffers doubting His coming. That is not when the earth is burned and made new!

Keeping in mind that Peter is talking about the second coming of Christ in 2 Peter 3:3-4, he then wrote this:

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Reserved. The date of that reservation is after the 1000 years. That is part of the day of the Lord.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The period comes as a thief, of course. However we know when the new heavens come. That is after the 1000 years. His promise of the new heavens comes with telling us when that is!

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Only after that do we see the new heavens coming.

-- he told his readers that it was important for them to be careful about what they talked about and about living godly lives in anticipation of the arrival of the day of the Lord.

The arrival is not the end of that time (day of the Lord) when the earth is burned. We look forward to Him! Not so much to a barbecue 1000 years after He arrives!

Jesus associated heaven and earth passing away with His second coming and He indicated that just as the flood destroyed all of the wicked in Noah's day, "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be". The wicked will all be destroyed when He comes as well. Which makes sense since the entire earth will be burned up.

Right, it will be so wicked just before He returns it will be like Noah's day. He will destroy all enemies as well when He comes. Then after the millennium, He judges all the dead and makes a new heaven and earth.

What judgment in heaven? Tell me what scripture talks about some judgment occurring in heaven.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God (Romans 14:10).

For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will reward each person according to what He has done (Matthew 16:27).

Matthew 25:31-46 is very clear that both the saved and the lost will stand before Him when He comes and will be judged at the same time. The idea of multiple judgment days is simply not taught in scripture.

When He returns, that is the case. That is not when the great final judgment of all people who have ever lived is though. He first deals with those who are alive when He returns!

Simple

 

[power1]

The only remnant?

No, the only Jews left alive who will be the remnant of Israel. All of them will be saved. That is what it means that all Israel will be saved.

 

[DavidPT]

You don't act like it.

I typically like to see if something can be debunked or not first, before I take an interpretation to be fact. This doesn't mean I don't understand the interpretation, or that I'm trying to misrepresent it, it just means I have a different way of going about things than others might have.

For example, and I have already proved this point in the past by using other examples. In the KJV every place the phrase 'no more' is used in Revelation, it appears to literally mean what it says, as in no more, period. A few examples again.

Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.


Revelation 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.


Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

No reasonable person would argue that 'no more' in these verses mean less, they would argue that it means exactly what it says. The same should be true when that same phrase is used in the following passage.

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


Does one's interpretation agree with what I have underlined, or does it disagree with what I have underlined, keeping in mind the fact I'm arguing that 'no more' means exactly what it says?

 

[power1]

You avoid every issue. You fail to address my enquiries. That is Premil in a nutshell. It simply doesn't fit.

Yes it does. I also answered the questions. Try to be a good loser.

 

[power1]

(1) Christ appears with His holy angels (Matthew 13:41-43, 49 16:27 24:29-31 25:31-32, Mark 13:25-27, Luke 9:26, Revelation 14:14-20) and the New Jerusalem (John 14:1-3, Hebrews 11:8-10, 13-16, 13:14. Revelation 3:11-12, 21:1-4).

(2) The elect of God, to a man, are immediately rescued to meet Him, as in Noah and Lot’s day (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, Philippians 3:11-12,20-21, 1 Corinthians 15:12-28,42-57, 2 Corinthians 1:9-10, Hebrews 11:39-40).

(3) The wicked, to a man, are immediately destroyed, as in Noah and Lot’s day (Joel 2:1-3, Joel 2:10-11, Isaiah 13:6-12, Malachi 4:1-3, Matthew 3:12, Luke 17:27-30, I Thessalonians 5:2-4, II Thessalonians 1:7-10, 2 Peter 2:5-9, Revelation 19:17-21).

(4) Satan cast into the Lake of Fire (Isaiah 26:19, II Thessalonians 2:1-9 Revelation 20:10). This occurs before the heaven and earth pass away in Revelation 20.

(5) The heavens elements and the earth and the works that are therein shall be ‘burned up utterly and consumed wholly’ (Joel 1:15, Joel 2:1-3, 10-11, Isaiah 24:19-21, Isaiah 34:1-4, 8-10, Isaiah 65:17, 66:22, Zephaniah 3:8, Revelation 6:13-14, Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 16:17-21, 2 Peter 3:7-13, Revelation 20:11, 21:1-3).

(6) The New Jerusalem then comes down upon the new earth (John 14:1-3, Revelation 21:1-4).

(7) The wicked are then raised (Daniel 12:1-3, Matthew 12:41-42, Luke 11:31, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15) for judgment.

(8) Both the wicked and the righteous are brought before the same throne of God for the final judgment (Matthew 13:24-30, 39-43, 47-50, 25:14, 19-30 Acts 17:31 Romans 2:5-16, 2 Timothy 4:1-8 Jude 1:14-15 Revelation 11:18, 20:12-13, 22:12).

(9) The wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire forever (Matthew 13:24-30, 39-43, 47-50, 25:14, 19-30, Rev 20:15)

(10) The righteous experience the new Jerusalem in all its glory enter unto the new earth (John 14:1-3, Revelation 21:1-4) where they will live forever.

Any point in this latest little verse spam session? Don't expect us to know what you think verses mean!

 

[sovereigngrace]

No, the only Jews left alive who will be the remnant of Israel. All of them will be saved. That is what it means that all Israel will be saved.

I agree. But they must be saved and enter the Church before Jesus comes and ushers in the end, including the resurrection and judgment of all.

 

[power1]

I agree. But they must be saved and enter the Church before Jesus comes and ushers in the end, including the resurrection and judgment of all.

No. The church is not even mentioned after Rev 4 until we see it in heaven later at the end of the book. There is no church on earth when Israel gets saved.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Any point in this latest little verse spam session? Don't expect us to know what you think verses mean!

This is what Scripture shows occurs when Jesus comes. This negates Premil. I suspect you know it, thus your avoidance.

 

[power1]

This is what Scripture shows occurs when Jesus comes. This negates Premil. I suspect you know it, thus your avoidance.

Lots of things occur when He returns and shortly after and 1000 years after. All in that day of the Lord. So?