Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Guojing

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As far as I know, yes, we will go to be where He is in that place He prepared for us.
Yes, and they will love it! That land was promised to them and one day, by God, they will finally have it!

The body of Christ does not mean it has to be Israel. When they get saved, they will be in the body. However they will be restored to that land from all over when Jesus returns and they get saved.

So you do make a distinction between the Body of Christ and Israel?

Why not go all the way and say this

The Body of Christ comprise of all of us, Jews and gentiles, who are saved by the gospel given to Paul, found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.

The nation of Israel comprised of the little flock of Jewish believers during OT, all the way up to during early Acts.
 
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power1

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So you do make a distinction between the Body of Christ and Israel?
No more than I make a distinction between the toes and the belly. Just because Israel will be restored to the land and have all their enemies killed, and then help rule with us and Jesus, does not mean they are not part of our saved family. It just means God also keeps His promises to them. What is bad about that?
Why not go all the way and say this

The Body of Christ comprise of all of us, Jews and gentiles, who are saved by the gospel given to Paul, found in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4.
The remnant are not yet saved nor restored to the land by Him. The body/bride of Christ will be taken up into the air to meet Him and so always be with Him. The future saved Israel will join that body, but will live on earth as they were promised for that 1000 years.
The nation of Israel comprised of the little flock of Jewish believers during OT, all the way up to during early Acts.

And it was made up of chosen people who were of a certain lineage. They rejected their Messiah, so they were cut off from Him. Yet one day, after He has taken His church into the air to be with Him forever, He will remember Israel. He set aside seven years for that. That is the time of Jacob's trouble when they will be dealt with until they repent and are saved. After they do He slays all their enemies, and gathers them back to that land as promised to them.
 
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Guojing

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No more than I make a distinction between the toes and the belly. Just because Israel will be restored to the land and have all their enemies killed, and then help rule with us and Jesus, does not mean they are not part of our saved family. It just means God also keeps His promises to them. What is bad about that?

The remnant are not yet saved nor restored to the land by Him. The body/bride of Christ will be taken up into the air to meet Him and so always be with Him. The future saved Israel will join that body, but will live on earth as they were promised for that 1000 years.


And it was made up of chosen people who were of a certain lineage. They rejected their Messiah, so they were cut off from Him. Yet one day, after He has taken His church into the air to be with Him forever, He will remember Israel. He set aside seven years for that. That is the time of Jacob's trouble when they will be dealt with until they repent and are saved. After they do He slays all their enemies, and gathers them back to that land as promised to them.

I am trying to figure out whether you are a dispensationalist.

You ever heard of that term?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Before.

I know you won't and don't agree with me that the literal thousand years is the first one thousand years of the New Heavens and New Earth, and is literal. I know you won't and don't agree that the devil will be released again even in the NHNE after a literal one thousand years.

I know you won't and don't agree that there will be any mortals initially in the NHNE, until the GWT and death and hades are thrown in the LOF.

I know you won't and don't agree with any of the above.

I'm OK (100%) OK with you not agreeing.

.. but I also know you find the whole idea very irritating because you find it upsetting that anyone would believe it, because you believe it's patently false and you want to argue everyone out of that belief and "make sure" that everyone can see "the fallacy and preposterous nature" of the whole idea of this lteral millennium and "how unbiblical it is".

I know the above is the case because of your many, many posts and many years of posting about it. It does not irritate or annoy me. I'm 100% okay with what you believe and how you feel about it but I also know that I won't answer your next question because it will only be to continue arguing about this thing ad infinitum and ad nauseum and ad whatever you want to call it.

There's just no way around a stalemate.

I like the fact that you are a saint, saved by grace through faith and I thank God for your salvation too.

But no, I'm not arguing with you anymore about this.

God bless.

There was absolutely no call for this type of response from a simple inoffensive question. It obviously exposed a vulnerable point in your doctrine.

I notice you immediately and unfairly attack the messenger when I asked you a basic innocuous question. You insist: Revelation tells us that the new heavens and new earth arrive before the millennium when you and every poster here knows it is the opposite. That may explain your ad hominem tactics.

You also put in quotes something i have never said in an attempt to malign me. I did not say: "'the fallacy and preposterous nature' of the whole idea of this literal millennium and 'how unbiblical it is'." You did that yourself. That is intentionally misleading.

Most importantly, you are unable to support your claim by hard Scripture. You know the new heavens and new earth do not arrive until after the millennium. Check Revelation 21.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Again your words are not the truth. We do go up into the air to meet Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Who is questioning the catching away? Most of us believe that. So, that does not prove Pretrib. It is all the add-ons that Pretrib forces into the text that many of us object to. Where in 1 Thessalonians 4 teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?
 
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sovereigngrace

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No more than I make a distinction between the toes and the belly. Just because Israel will be restored to the land and have all their enemies killed, and then help rule with us and Jesus, does not mean they are not part of our saved family. It just means God also keeps His promises to them. What is bad about that?

The remnant are not yet saved nor restored to the land by Him. The body/bride of Christ will be taken up into the air to meet Him and so always be with Him. The future saved Israel will join that body, but will live on earth as they were promised for that 1000 years.


And it was made up of chosen people who were of a certain lineage. They rejected their Messiah, so they were cut off from Him. Yet one day, after He has taken His church into the air to be with Him forever, He will remember Israel. He set aside seven years for that. That is the time of Jacob's trouble when they will be dealt with until they repent and are saved. After they do He slays all their enemies, and gathers them back to that land as promised to them.

Most importantly, where in Scripture does it say that "future saved Israel will join that body, but will live on earth as they were promised for that 1000 years"?
 
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Timtofly

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What is the following verse referring to, if not the lake of fire?

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

What is sheol?

Were the angels bound in a pit, of everlasting fire, called sheol?

Were the angels bound in the Lake of Fire and allowed out of the Lake of Fire?

Revelation 9:1-3

"And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power."

Jude 1:6

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

"into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

We have eternal fire and everlasting chains. Yet we see that even sheol is cast into the Lake of Fire. So either the Lake of Fire is the same pit that will be unlocked, or the pit itself, sheol will be cast into the Lake of Fire. Yet still we only know their distinction after heaven and earth pass away. Death and sheol are not tied to the earth nor heaven, but distinct phenomenon of their own, even if not acceptable as literal created places.

The point being fire is not distinct about the Lake of Fire, nor did Jesus ever literalize a LoF, like He did Abraham's bosom or Paradise. Paradise is plausible as becoming the New Jerusalem that heavenly city. But sheol was cast into the LoF, even if you dismiss either as physical creations. Even heaven is a physical place created by God. It is not the defined place called eternity. Eternity was not created (as far as we know). The heavens and the earth were created. Eternity outside of creation may never be understood ever. No one has declared God is outside of eternity, but that eternity is outside of creation. Past the point of topic, but Paradise is a section of heaven, not even eternity, because eternity is outside of creation, not even heaven. But God still gives us the sense of eternal and everlasting as if we should understand and grasp the concept.

So even the chains will go on into the Lake of Fire and do not necessarily mean sheol has been the Lake of Fire. They are distinctly two different places as sheol itself will be placed into the Lake of Fire. The point being the goats could be placed into sheol, Death, or the Lake of Fire. However at the time Jesus gave us the Olivet Discourse, the only place His audience would have associated as where the goats went would be sheol. That was the place prepared back before the Flood, and probably before Adam was placed in the Garden. They were unaware of Death or the Lake of Fire at that point. And since Jesus only said "the place prepared" and not when it was prepared or this places name, it could still be a toss up between Death, sheol, or the Lake of Fire as all are likely candidates at the time it actually happens. But only sheol was known at the time. Personally I pick Death over sheol, even if sheol is a more obvious choice. Death was personified by the Greeks, but not a place. The word is thanatos. I do not think John was trying to personify either death or sheol, but was John trying to point out that Death at the Second Coming was a location along side of sheol. No place in Scripture other than John indicates a location, but only a state of being. Obviously no more details are given about death, other than the cessation of physical life.

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Some claim sheol is a place of torment, but can that be equated with punishment? Yes a soul would be in torment in sheol, but that punishment was not for humans. It was the punishment designed for Satan and his angels. I think Death is the specific place of punishment for humans who have been removed from the Lamb's book of life. Sheol was prepared for Satan. Death was prepared for humans. So the last verse does not rest on a physical aspect of chains or fire. It is the very aspect of punishing humans themselves, because they are no longer in the Lamb's book of life, but have passed all hope of being redeemed. So you can literally say they went to a place not prepared for them, or literally they did go to a place prepared exactly for them as punishment. In fact the punishment would be without end. I think those humans who rebel in the Millennium will be placed in Death, and not sheol, even though they both are emptied into the Lake of Fire. This reasoning is more preferable than just pretending the 1000 year reign is in the here and now, when there are other plausible explanations in Scripture. One being there is no corroboration that Death is a curse and reserved for the Millennium, unless there is. Isaiah 65:20.

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."

Here death is called a curse. Isaiah is not contrasting two types of common death, but two ideas altogether. You have stated Isaiah is just symbolizing eternal life. That is not the point at all. One could just say eternal or everlasting and leave sin and cursing out of the topic. Since Isaiah included death and a curse he was talking about a future millennium, and not the NHNE of Revelation 21. The contrast was between what is considered youth, and what is considered the cause of death. The common theme is a number, not an act not a stage of life. It is definitely not about living forever, and no death.

So the common item is the age 100. Now 100 is a huge chunk of 1000 even if we think 1000 is an unreachable age. There are only 10 100's in 1000. So a tenth one's life is still considered a child. Currently being a child is considered a slightly smaller portion between 10% and 15%, but still close to 10%. But living to 10 or 15 still comes quicker than living to 100 or 1000. So living to 1000 is doable and natural and Isaiah claims the norms of childhood is still a natural range. So it is not about longevity, but about normalcy, because the contrast is death, but not common death, it is the death of being cursed.

The contrast is the fact that death is going to happen to a child, and the reason a child dies under the Law, is because of disobedience. It is not calling the child a sinner, it is calling the disobedience a death sentence. The reason they stoned a child was to prevent evil.

"And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear."

The curse is the fact they were rebellious and disobedient.

Obviously, that is just your opinion based on the assumption that what is described in Revelation 20 chronologically follows what is described in Revelation 19.

The result of Satan's defeat is not just chronological. It is also the logical outcome of Satan coming against Christ. You claim Satan came against Christ at the Cross along with the FP and beast. Is that your logical point of outcome for Satan, the FP, and the beast, coming together in Revelation 19?

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

It is not logical to assume Satan was cast into the Lake of Fire, when the next few verses, without chapter breaks, claims Satan was bound, not cast into the Lake of Fire. It is logical that Satan is cast in 1000 years later. Amil have to change the logic, not just claim a break in thought.

Where does scripture teach that there will be multiple judgment days? That's not what this says:

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

This passage teaches that God has appointed a singular future day at which point He will judge "all people everywhere/the world/everyone "by the man he has appointed", which is obviously referring to Jesus. That singular judgment day is portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46.

Jesus was appointed to die on the Cross. That was the day, God judged the world. He rose Christ from the dead as proof of that judgment.

Yes, they will be. How do you interpret this passage:

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Jesus will come as Prince, and set up His throne to judge the earth from Jerusalem. After all the works of mankind are burned up, and the final harvest of all of Adam's flesh and blood is completed, then there will be a resurrection. Those resurrected in Revelation 20:4 will reign with Christ. They will have offspring per Isaiah 65. They will build houses, and establish families, and remain in the same homestead for 1000 years, until Christ hands back the kingdom, and death is defeated. The last enemy is death.
 
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jeffweedaman

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When He judges the nations that is judging the living. When the thousand years are over, He raises the dead and judges them. So of course He will judge the living and the dead. That does not mean in 3 hours of one day.
It means what it says...

2Tim 4

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

Read 2 Thess 1 if you are still not convinced of it happening the same time / day.

5 This is a plain indication of God’s righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you indeed are suffering. 6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed—because our testimony to you was believed.
 
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DavidPT

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There are no mortals left to overrun your future millennium as the sand of the sea.

Why do Amils, such as you, keep making wild claims like this when Zechariah 14:16-19 for one proves otherwise? How can anyone that reads that chapter not see that there are those of the nations which came against Jerusalem, that they are spared not destroyed with the others?

How can anyone possibly think Zechariah 14:12 has already been fulfilled? How can Zechariah 14:16-19 possibly be meaning before Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled first?

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Verse 12 indicates that the LORD smites with a plague all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. Those that are dealt this fate, there coudn't possibly be anyone that survives that. Yet, verse 16 says there are those remaining of all the nations which came against Jerusalem who obviously didn't encounter the fate recorded in verse 12 at the time. This can be easily explained. Even though they too lived in these same nations, they never actually took a part in coming against Jerusalem.

I propose verse 12 basically happens twice. Before the thousand years during the 2nd coming. And after the thousand years at the end of satan's little season.


Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Since some of you apparently can't see everything recorded in verse 16, I resized some of it for you, now you can no longer act like that part is not even in the text.
 
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power1

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Who is questioning the catching away? Most of us believe that. So, that does not prove Pretrib. It is all the add-ons that Pretrib forces into the text that many of us object to. Where in 1 Thessalonians 4 teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7-year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?
Whoever the post was responding to was. Why? Do you think believers are all raised from the dead, and join all living believers in the air where Jesus is happened as He returns to the earth with the believers? That yo yo doctrine is ridiculous.
 
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power1

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Most importantly, where in Scripture does it say that "future saved Israel will join that body, but will live on earth as they were promised for that 1000 years"?
All who are saved are in the body of Jesus. They promises of them being gathered to the land after He returns are all over the bible. Why, have you verses that say they won't?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why do Amils, such as you, keep making wild claims like this when Zechariah 14:16-19 for one proves otherwise? How can anyone that reads that chapter not see that there are those of the nations which came against Jerusalem, that they are spared not destroyed with the others?

How can anyone possibly think Zechariah 14:12 has already been fulfilled? How can Zechariah 14:16-19 possibly be meaning before Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled first?

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Verse 12 indicates that the LORD smites with a plague all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. Those that are dealt this fate, there coudn't possibly be anyone that survives that. Yet, verse 16 says there are those remaining of all the nations which came against Jerusalem who obviously didn't encounter the fate recorded in verse 12 at the time. This can be easily explained. Even though they too lived in these same nations, they never actually took a part in coming against Jerusalem.

I propose verse 12 basically happens twice. Before the thousand years during the 2nd coming. And after the thousand years at the end of satan's little season.


Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Since some of you apparently can't see everything recorded in verse 16, I resized some of it for you, now you can no longer act like that part is not even in the text.

But, the DOTL (in Zechariah 14:1) supposedly ushers in your millennium and then you have nothing but chaos in Zechariah 14. Can you see how there is no correlation with Revelation 20 in your theology?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
  • Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Whoever the post was responding to was. Why? Do you think believers are all raised from the dead, and join all living believers in the air where Jesus is happened as He returns to the earth with the believers? That yo yo doctrine is ridiculous.

More avoidance! Your doctrine obviously does not abide scriptural scrutiny. There is no teaching in Holy Writ on (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ in the passage. It must be forced into the sacred text.
 
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sovereigngrace

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All who are saved are in the body of Jesus. They promises of them being gathered to the land after He returns are all over the bible. Why, have you verses that say they won't?

All i am getting from you is personal opinion or what you have been taught. Where is your Scripture?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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So He is judging nations at that time. Not the dead. Simple. The dead are raised to be judged after the 1000 years.
Where does scripture teach anything about a judgment day for nations? Are you sure you're reading Matthew 25:31-46 carefully?

Do you think entire nations will inherit "eternal life" in the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world? If so, where does scripture teach that concept? I see it taught often regarding individuals, but not nations.

Do you think entire nations will be cast into "everlasting fire" to experience "everlasting punishment" in the place prepared for the devil and his angels? if so, where does scripture teach that concept? I see it taught regarding individuals, but not nations.

You need to start looking at Hebrew and Greek resources that show all the definitions of the Hebrew and Greeks words that were translated into English. In this case "nations" is translated from the Greek word "ethnos" which can also mean "heathen", "people" or "Gentiles". Clearly, there will be no judgment of nations that results in either eternal life or eternal punishment. That is only for individuals. So, the better translation of "ethnos" in this case would've been "people" instead of nations because it has to do with all people being separated into two groups which are figuratively represented by sheep and goats in Matthew 25:31-46.

That is false doctrine.
If Amillennialism is false doctrine, then why are you not able to refute it? Honestly, I find your arguments to be incredibly weak.

2 Peter 3:12
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
From other places in the bible, we know exactly when that is. After the 1000 years. No doubt.

No. Those veres are still way back in the Trib, talking about scoffers doubting His coming. That is not when the earth is burned and made new!
The scoffers scoff leading up to His second coming and then the fire comes down when He comes. Where do you see any indication whatsoever in 2 Peter 3 that the earth is burne up long after His coming? There is none!

Reserved. The date of that reservation is after the 1000 years. That is part of the day of the Lord.
What are you talking about? When exactly do you think the day of the Lord begins and how long does it last?

The period comes as a thief, of course. However we know when the new heavens come. That is after the 1000 years. His promise of the new heavens comes with telling us when that is!
That means He comes after the thousand years. Peter said very clearly in 2 Peter 3:13 that we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth according to the promise of His second coming. If the new heavens and new earth aren't ushered in until 1000+ years after His second coming then 2 Peter 3:13 would make no sense.

Paul indicated in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 that the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night and will result in sudden destruction from which "they shall not escape". When do you think the "sudden destruction" will occur and what do you think will cause that "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape"?

Revelation 20:7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8
And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Only after that do we see the new heavens coming.
Right. And 2 Peter 3:10-13 indicates that will occur at the second coming of Christ. I don't think you're reading 2 Peter 3 very carefully. You're making assumptions about what Revelation 20 means without making sure your interpretation of Revelation 20 doesn't contradict other scripture which is what Premils typically do. You should interpret Revelation 20 in light of more clear and straightforward scripture, but instead you interpret the rest of scripture in light of a highly symbolic chapter contained within a highly symbolic book.

The arrival is not the end of that time (day of the Lord) when the earth is burned. We look forward to Him! Not so much to a barbecue 1000 years after He arrives!
Where is there any indication in 2 Peter 3 that the earth will be burned up long after Christ returns? Tell me why Peter warned his readers about how they were living their lives in anticipation of the day of the Lord if the fiery destruction he talked about wasn't something that could potentially happen in their lifetimes.

Right, it will be so wicked just before He returns it will be like Noah's day. He will destroy all enemies as well when He comes.
Yes, He will. But, what you're not getting is that everyone else (believers) will be changed and have immortal bodies at that point. That doesn't leave any mortals to populate an earthly millennial kingdom.

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what we have done whether good or bad (2 Corinthians 5:10).

Why do you pass judgment on your brother or sister? Or you, why do you despise your brother or sister? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God (Romans 14:10).

For the Son of Man is going to come in His Father's glory with His angels, and then He will reward each person according to what He has done (Matthew 16:27).
None of these say anything about anyone being judged in heaven.

When He returns, that is the case. That is not when the great final judgment of all people who have ever lived is though. He first deals with those who are alive when He returns!
Where does scripture teach that? Are you assuming that none of the sheep or goats will have been resurrected just because it doesn't spell that out for you in the text? Where does scripture teach that there will be more than one judgment day? Instead it teaches that God has set a single day to judge the world (Acts 17:31). I have shown scripture which only speaks of one judgment day. The onus is on you to show scripture which teaches that there will be more than one future judgment day. Good luck with that.

Also, where is the scripture that clearly teaches that there will be more than one future day when a mass bodily resurrection occurs? How do you interpret this passage:

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Why do you believe in two (or more) future hours/times when the dead will be resurrected? Do you somehow know something that Jesus didn't know? He said there is one future hour/time when all of the dead will be resurrected.
 
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power1

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Why do Amils, such as you, keep making wild claims like this when Zechariah 14:16-19 for one proves otherwise? How can anyone that reads that chapter not see that there are those of the nations which came against Jerusalem, that they are spared not destroyed with the others?
He will. But the dead are not raised and judged till later in the day of the Lord. That does not mean instantly, in an hour, soon as we see Him. Some will be judged then right away. Try not to think you need to stuff all things a prophesy mentions into a lunch break.

How can anyone possibly think Zechariah 14:12 has already been fulfilled? How can Zechariah 14:16-19 possibly be meaning before Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled first?
No idea. If you ever fins someone who does, get back to us.

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Verse 12 indicates that the LORD smites with a plague all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. Those that are dealt this fate, there coudn't possibly be anyone that survives that. Yet, verse 16 says there are those remaining of all the nations which came against Jerusalem who obviously didn't encounter the fate recorded in verse 12 at the time. This can be easily explained. Even though they too lived in these same nations, they never actually took a part in coming against Jerusalem.
Yes, plenty survive. Just not the wicked! The Jews who are saved there, for example survive.
I propose verse 12 basically happens twice. Before the thousand years during the 2nd coming. And after the thousand years at the end of satan's little season.
Great. So what? Your problem there is you are guessing. Is the camp of the saints in Jerusalem at that time? If so, will it be nations that surround the camp of the saints? Is rain witholding really of any matter when God is sending fire from heaven to kill them all? Or plague? You see, the earth is about to be burned then and the saints will be fine. That is when the new earth is made, and new heavens. That is just before God comes down to live here forever. So you are free to guess. Just remember that is all it is.


Since some of you apparently can't see everything recorded in verse 16, I resized some of it for you, now you can no longer act like that part is not even in the text.
Just explained that above.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Whoever the post was responding to was. Why? Do you think believers are all raised from the dead, and join all living believers in the air where Jesus is happened as He returns to the earth with the believers? That yo yo doctrine is ridiculous.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 proves Amil and forbids Pretrib and Premil. It says: “we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

A very basic study of the passage will show that 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 carries no support for the Pretrib paradigm, quite the opposite. It forbids it. There is no teaching on (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ in the passage. It must be forced into the sacred text.

The coming of the Lord is shown throughout Scripture to be both sudden and noisy. This text proves that Christ is not coming secretly with an apologetic whisper but publicly with a triumphant shout. He appears “with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God.” This trumpet will sound and activate the rescue of the elect of God from all nations. I Thessalonians 5:2-7 confirms that it isn’t just Christ’s Advent in glory that is sudden but also the destruction that accompanies it. Likening Christ’s return to “a thief in the night” capably serves to impress the surprising nature of this coming for the lost. It shows that the wicked are caught abruptly and unprepared in their folly at the apocalypse. The “sudden destruction” is so impactful that we are told none escape ("they shall not escape"). This couldn't be clearer. The wicked are totally and completely destroyed, allowing no room for the Pretrib theory of survivors or a subsequent 7yrs trib.

Importantly, Paul is speaking here to Christians. He is exhorting the Thessalonian church to be attentive as this final day approaches. He urges them to be ready, watch and prepare. In doing so, he demolishes the Pretrib notion of two separate future comings of the Lord separated by seven years. Clearly, the Church can’t have been raptured seven-years previous to this final event (as Pretribs argue) as it expressly witnesses the arrival of the day of the Lord. The Pretrib theory renders this day meaningless to the Church of Jesus Christ who they believe are safely in heaven 7-years prior. However, Paul plainly requires the Church to watch and be ready for its appearing.

The wrath of God that arrives on this climactic day is notably described as “sudden destruction.” This whole narrative is a record of Christ’s one and only future coming. Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. 1 Thessalonians 4:14 explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).
 
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power1

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All i am getting from you is personal opinion or what you have been taught. Where is your Scripture?
You should know that God will gather them back when He returns. If not, you need to study before debating.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Why do Amils, such as you, keep making wild claims like this when Zechariah 14:16-19 for one proves otherwise? How can anyone that reads that chapter not see that there are those of the nations which came against Jerusalem, that they are spared not destroyed with the others?

How can anyone possibly think Zechariah 14:12 has already been fulfilled? How can Zechariah 14:16-19 possibly be meaning before Zechariah 14:12 is fulfilled first?

Zechariah 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Verse 12 indicates that the LORD smites with a plague all the people that have fought against Jerusalem. Those that are dealt this fate, there coudn't possibly be anyone that survives that. Yet, verse 16 says there are those remaining of all the nations which came against Jerusalem who obviously didn't encounter the fate recorded in verse 12 at the time. This can be easily explained. Even though they too lived in these same nations, they never actually took a part in coming against Jerusalem.

I propose verse 12 basically happens twice. Before the thousand years during the 2nd coming. And after the thousand years at the end of satan's little season.


Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.


Since some of you apparently can't see everything recorded in verse 16, I resized some of it for you, now you can no longer act like that part is not even in the text.

How can this millennium Premils imagine have “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-17) yet at the same time because Jerusalem is "holy" place a prohibition that "there shall no strangers pass through her any more" (Joel 3:17) and “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9)? This doesn't make sense.

Premil contradicts itself at every angle. It doesn't add up. You are avoiding the contradictions existing within Premil in regard to these 2 proof-text passages.

It is talking about salvation coming to Israel "in Christ" 2,000 years ago. It is in turn talking about the spiritual and natural blessings that would come to the Gentiles who embraced Christ. The prophets looked through a glass darkly and described things in terms their listeners could understand.

We have moved from natural Jerusalem in the OT to the heavenly Jerusalem in the NT. Christ was always redirecting our eyes away from the natural to the spiritual, from the earthly to the heavenly, from the temporal to the eternal and from the visible to the invisible. Now that the shadow has been abolished, the fulfillment has superseded it.
 
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