Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[sovereigngrace]

In the past I have entertained that the thousand years might be part of the DOTL. Personally, I take the thousand years to involve a literal thousand years, no more, no less.

This presents a problem once satan is loosed. It would then no longer be the thousand years, thus it would no longer be the day of the Lord, assuming this scenario. 2 Peter 3 indicates that the heavens and earth pass away during the day of the Lord, not post that day.

In order to agree with 2 Peter 3, even if the thousand years are part of the day of the Lord, the heavens and earth have to pass away at the beginning of it since at the end of the thousand years it would no longer be the day of the Lord at that point. It would be satan's little season instead.

But the day of the Lord is marked by the sudden comprehensive wholesale destruction of the wicked and of fallen creation. There are no mortals left to overrun your future millennium as the sand of the sea.

Whatever way you look at it, and if you are going to be consistent (which Premil is not), then you would have to concede your day of the Lord (however long) is an unfolding fiery destruction.

 

[Guojing]

No. By church one usually means believers in Jesus, and more specifically those who came to believe in Him between the first coming and the Rapture! Saints in the millennium and the Trib are not the church any more than Noah was the church.

Hmm, you are also including those who believe in Jesus during the 4 gospels?

So those who from Israel who believe that Jesus was the Christ, for example Martha in John 11:27, you also consider her as part of the Body of Christ?

 

[DavidPT]

Whats the outcome of the final outrageous season?
The answer is the righteous judgment of God on those who refused to love the truth and so be saved. This has the second coming of the Lord in the glory of his Father written all over it.

Since this appears to be implying what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2 for one, and since I am of the NOSAS camp, I connect the refusing to love the truth with that of the great falling away recorded in that chapter. How can it not involve the falling away? How can anyone fall way from something they were never a part of to begin with? Therefore, it is professed Christians being the targets of the strong delusion recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2, not the lost in general. The lost are already deceived. And besides, take atheists for instance. They couldn't possibly care one way or the other about the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. It would be meaningless to them.

 

[power1]

Where does it mention survivors or a 7-trib after the coming of Christ anywhere in Scripture?

We come TO Christ before He comes to the earth. We meet in the air.

 

[jeffweedaman]

Since this appears to be implying what is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2 for one, and since I am of the NOSAS camp, I connect the refusing to love the truth with that of the great falling away recorded in that chapter. How can it not involve the falling away? How can anyone fall way from something they were never a part of to begin with? Therefore, it is professed Christians being the targets of the strong delusion recorded in 2 Thessalonians 2, not the lost in general. The lost are already deceived. And besides, take atheists for instance. They couldn't possibly care one way or the other about the working of satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. It would be meaningless to them.

The lost in general are included with the totally ignorant. Judging them all at the same time makes perfect sense according to the NT as the book of life is opened at the end.
This is what separates the sheep and the goats when the Lord Jesus finally appears at the end of the age.

 

[sovereigngrace]

We come TO Christ before He comes to the earth. We meet in the air.

Again, zero Scripture. Just personal opinion. Show us anywhere in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

 

[Zao is life]

I guess it depends on how one looks at things. IMO, eternity still involves time except it is now never ending for us. For one, unless we were lied to in the OT, the sun and the moon shall remain forever. It makes no sense to have a sun and a moon unless there is still day and night on this planet. Then there is Revelation 20:10 that says satan shall be tormented day and night. Why put it like that if day and night no longer exists in the next age? And what if man had not even fallen? Would day and night cease to exist eventually? Then there is this in Revelation 22---was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations(Revelation 22:2). Why even mention months if time is longer measurable at this point?

Plus there is this as well.

Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

In my view this is meaning a time post the 2nd coming and that it mentions measurable time, that being summer and winter.

I have kept this post of yours in mind since you made it (which is why I came back to look for it again today), and I agree with you. Been giving it thought, and I believe you are right.

So we're on the same page with regards to the thousand years and the new heaven and new earth following immediately after the return of Christ ( which I find comforting, lol. For some reason I always find it comforting when there is at least one other person who sees what I see).

Thanks for that post.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I have kept this post of yours in mind since you made it (which is why I came back to look for it again today), and I agree with you. Been giving it thought, and I believe you are right.

So we're on the same page with regards to the thousand years and the new heaven and new earth following immediately after the return of Christ ( which I find comforting, lol. For some reason I always find it comforting when there is at least one other person who sees what I see).

Thanks for that post.

More importantly, when does Revelation say that the new heavens and new earth arrive - before or after the millennium?

 

[Zao is life]

More importantly, when does Revelation say that the new heavens and new earth arrive - before or after the millennium?

Before.

I know you won't and don't agree with me that the literal thousand years is the first one thousand years of the New Heavens and New Earth, and is literal. I know you won't and don't agree that the devil will be released again even in the NHNE after a literal one thousand years.

I know you won't and don't agree that there will be any mortals initially in the NHNE, until the GWT and death and hades are thrown in the LOF.

I know you won't and don't agree with any of the above.

I'm OK (100%) OK with you not agreeing.

.. but I also know you find the whole idea very irritating because you find it upsetting that anyone would believe it, because you believe it's patently false and you want to argue everyone out of that belief and "make sure" that everyone can see "the fallacy and preposterous nature" of the whole idea of this lteral millennium and "how unbiblical it is".

I know the above is the case because of your many, many posts and many years of posting about it. It does not irritate or annoy me. I'm 100% okay with what you believe and how you feel about it but I also know that I won't answer your next question because it will only be to continue arguing about this thing ad infinitum and ad nauseum and ad whatever you want to call it.

There's just no way around a stalemate.

I like the fact that you are a saint, saved by grace through faith and I thank God for your salvation too.

But no, I'm not arguing with you anymore about this.

God bless.

 

[power1]

Where does it teach that in Revelation?

Revelation refers to scores of other books. You ought to know where the catching up into the air to meet Him is. Debate honestly.

 

[power1]

He implies that in the strongest possible language.

2Tim 4

I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom:

When He judges the nations that is judging the living. When the thousand years are over, He raises the dead and judges them. So of course He will judge the living and the dead. That does not mean in 3 hours of one day.

 

[power1]

In the past I have entertained that the thousand years might be part of the DOTL. Personally, I take the thousand years to involve a literal thousand years, no more, no less.

This presents a problem once satan is loosed. It would then no longer be the thousand years, thus it would no longer be the day of the Lord, assuming this scenario. 2 Peter 3 indicates that the heavens and earth pass away during the day of the Lord, not post that day.

In order to agree with 2 Peter 3, even if the thousand years are part of the day of the Lord, the heavens and earth have to pass away at the beginning of it since at the end of the thousand years it would no longer be the day of the Lord at that point. It would be satan's little season instead.

No one says exactly a thousand years! Why would it have to be that long? It includes the Tribulation. That alone means it is more than a thousand years!

 

[power1]

Hmm, you are also including those who believe in Jesus during the 4 gospels?

Did not Jesus set it up then? Did He not mention to Peter that upon the rock of the belief He was the Savior, He would found His church?

So those who from Israel who believe that Jesus was the Christ, for example Martha in John 11:27, you also consider her as part of the Body of Christ?

Yes! The saved Jews today also would be part of the Bride far as I can tell. When the remnant of Israel gets saved in the end, they will be part of His family, and His people also. But they apparently are going to live on earth as they were promised in the land of promise. The Bride will live with Jesus where He is, in New Jerusalem that He has prepared for us.

 

[power1]

Again, zero Scripture. Just personal opinion. Show us anywhere in Scripture that teaches a rapture of the Church followed by a 7 year tribulation period followed by a 3rd coming of Christ?

Again your words are not the truth. We do go up into the air to meet Him.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[Guojing]

Did not Jesus set it up then? Did He not mention to Peter that upon the rock of the belief He was the Savior, He would found His church?
Yes! The saved Jews today also would be part of the Bride far as I can tell. When the remnant of Israel gets saved in the end, they will be part of His family, and His people also. But they apparently are going to live on earth as they were promised in the land of promise. The Bride will live with Jesus where He is, in New Jerusalem that He has prepared for us.

So what you are saying is that, you believe all of us believers will be living on the Earth during the millennial reign?

 

[power1]

So what you are saying is that, you believe all of us believers will be living on the Earth during the millennial reign?

No. Far as I know we go to be with Jesus where He is, in that city He prepared for us. But we still help Him rule the world here and spend some time here. Maybe it is a bit like commuting. We commute from New Jerusalem to earth. The travel time is...instant! The believers who live in that thousand years though will still be on earth, as will be the saved Israel.

 

[Guojing]

No. Far as I know we go to be with Jesus where He is, in that city He prepared for us. But we still help Him rule the world here and spend some time here. Maybe it is a bit like commuting. We commute from New Jerusalem to earth. The travel time is...instant! The believers who live in that thousand years though will still be on earth, as will be the saved Israel.

Revelation 21:2 mentioned the term "New Jerusalem" but that happens after the millennial reign and after the great white throne judgment. Are you referring to that?

I am talking about during the millennial reign, when the nation of Israel reign with Jesus on Jerusalem on the Earth , as described in Zechariah 8.

 

[power1]

Revelation 21:2 mentioned the term "New Jerusalem" but that happens after the millennial reign and after the great white throne judgment. Are you referring to that?

That is when it comes down to earth. Before that is is still around but not down on earth yet. That is the place Jesus went to prepare for us.

I am talking about during the millennial reign, when the nation of Israel reign with Jesus on Jerusalem on the Earth , as described in Zechariah 8.

Me too. Jesus and us will rule earth HQing in Jerusalem. That does not mean we live here full time. Our home is New Jerusalem.

 

[Guojing]

That is when it comes down to earth. Before that is is still around but not down on earth yet. That is the place Jesus went to prepare for us.
Me too. Jesus and us will rule earth HQing in Jerusalem. That does not mean we live here full time. Our home is New Jerusalem.

Okay, so you are saying "we", the Body of Christ, will live in the heavens. That is what you meant by New Jerusalem.

But you also believe that the nation Israel will live on Earth.

So why are "we" not Israel, since you believe the "Body of Christ" started during Jesus first coming to the nation of Israel?

 

[power1]

Okay, so you are saying "we", the Body of Christ, will live in the heavens. That is what you meant by New Jerusalem.

As far as I know, yes, we will go to be where He is in that place He prepared for us.

But you also believe that the nation Israel will live on Earth.

Yes, and they will love it! That land was promised to them and one day, by God, they will finally have it!

So why are "we" not Israel, since you believe the "Body of Christ" started during Jesus first coming to the nation of Israel?

The body of Christ does not mean it has to be Israel. When they get saved, they will be in the body. However they will be restored to that land from all over when Jesus returns and they get saved.