The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

[guevaraj]

Repetition unresponsive to the posts you are quoting from and the scriptures that disagree with you as shown in post #138; post # 139 and post # 147 linked. Sorry I do not believe you. Take Care.

Brother, the Scriptures oppose the human tradition that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is a weekday as assumed since Joshua. Your rejection of "another day" requires that the Hebrews 3 and 4 passage mean "Jesus" and not "Joshua" to defend the tradition, from the phrase "another day". Found in the King James Version of the Bible as "Jesus" is "Joshua" who led "them" to the Promised Land before David as translated in most modern translations, because "Jesus" was not before David like the King James Bible translated the name wrongly when it is impossible within the context of the message of Hebrews 3 and 4 for Jesus to live before David.

I am sorry but I respectfully disagree. The "ANOTHER DAY (not place in Hebrews 4:7-8)" is in reference to the coming of MESSIAH JESUS and the preaching of the Gospel. God's people who did not enter GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) in the wilderness did not enter in because they did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

The King James Bible is wrong here, it cannot be “Jesus”, because God could not have spoken “afterward”, of “another day” through David, placing "Jesus" before David or as most other modern Bibles translate the name before David, "Joshua", who after Moses led "them" to the Promised Land before David.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua (not Jesus) had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Kilk1]

It does not mean that they did not practice it either. *Genesis 26:5. Jesus says that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, and was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. There was only Adam and Eve created on the "sixth day" of the creation week made in the image of God *Genesis 1:26-31.

As posted earlier, Genesis 1:14 was not a reference to the annual Feast days it simply says " God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. I think your trying to read the annual Feast days into Genesis 1:14 which is not there. The annual Feast days came after the fall of mankind under the Mosaic covenant and Gods' plan of salvation for those who choose to believe and follow what His Word says.
According to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged the Hebrew word used for "signs" is אוֺת (owth H226) and for Genesis 1:14 it says signs, tokens of changes of weather & times Gen 1:14 (P; of heavenly luminaries) הַשָּׁמַיִם אוֺתוֺת Jer 10:2 (changes of the heavens as omens to frighten the nations) compare Psa 65:9.

When I said, "Just because something was made 'for' someone doesn't necessarily mean it was being practiced then," you reply, "It does not mean that they did not practice it either." I agree. Referencing "when" a day was made neither proves neither 1) that it was practiced then nor 2) that it was not practiced then. Therefore, can we agree that showing "when" a day was made doesn't prove either way whether it was practiced, and that therefore, this argument shouldn't be used? Arguments that don't prove either side, aren't that useful, after all.

If you agree that we should stop using the "Sabbath was made at creation" argument, then it doesn't matter that there was no Moses, no Jews, and no Israel, since the time something's made isn't necessarily the time it's given.

If you disagree and still insist that when something is made is the same time it's given, then please answer these questions:

1. What day did God make the herbs (Genesis 1:11-13), and what day did God give the herbs to man (Genesis 1:29-31)? Was the making and the giving on the same day, or different days?
2. Could you explain what the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) means in Genesis 1:14? (I had previously asked, "could you explain what the term "signs" (Hebrew, ‘owth) and the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) mean in Genesis 1:14?" However, while you did reference Brown-Driver-Briggs for "signs," you didn't reference Brown-Driver-Briggs [or any other source] for "seasons.") What does "seasons" (Hebrew, moed) mean?
3. When was the Sabbath "given" according to Ezekiel 20:10-12?

Your belief here is simply speculation unsupported by the scriptures. As posted earlier the scriptures says in the very words of Jesus, that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, and was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. There was only Adam and Eve created on the "sixth day" of the creation week made in the image of God *Genesis 1:26-31. If God made the Sabbath for mankind why would you think he is not doing to tell him about it? - Genesis 26:5.

You say my belief is speculation unsupported by the Scriptures, referencing when I said, "What I believe is that God rested on the seventh day. However, the Sabbath wasn't given to man until after Israel left Egypt, and it was given/made known specifically to physical Israel (Exodus 16:29; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12)." How is this speculation? The Scriptures do support my claim "that God rested on the seventh day" (Genesis 2:1-3) and they do support my claim that "it was given/made known specifically to physical Israel (Exodus 16:29; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12)." Notice the Scriptures given. If they don't teach what I say they teach, please explain what they do teach if not that the Sabbath "was given/made known specifically to physical Israel (Exodus 16:29; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12)." How was the Sabbath "made known" (Nehemiah 9:14) and "given" (Ezekiel 20:12) to Israel if everyone had already had it from all of creation?

When God made herbs, there was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, and even no mankind since it was on the third day (Genesis 1:11-13)! Does this prove that herbs were for someone other than Moses, Jews, Israel, and even mankind (see Genesis 1:29-31)? Surely you see that the time in which something's made doesn't prove who it's for or when it's used.

When God made the sun and moon "for" seasons, there was was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, and even no mankind since it was on the fourth day (Genesis 1:14-19). After seeing what "seasons" (Hebrew, moed) means, were seasons being observed on the fourth day, before there was even any humans? Surely you see that the time in which something's made doesn't prove when it's used.

Jesus says (not me), in Mark 2:27 The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. This Sabbath was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 and mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) were made on the "sixth day" of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. There was only Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for all mankind. The above is God's Word not mine. It is not very difficult to understand.

And Jesus said (not me) in John 7:22-23 that the Jews would "circumcise a man [Greek, anthropos] on the Sabbath" (NKJV, emphasis mine). And the Bible says (not me) in Hebrews 5:1-3 that every high priest is taken from among "men" (Greek, anthropos) and appointed for "men" (Greek, anthropos) to offer sacrifices for sins, including his own sin. Also, the Bible says (not me) in Hebrews 7:28 that "the law appoints men [Greek, anthropos] as high priests who have weakness," (WEB, emphasis mine).

Since these verses don't say "Jews" but "man" (Greek, anthropos), then do these verses prove that people from "all mankind," Jew and Gentile, were circumcised, were appointed as high priests in the law, and offered sacrifices for sins, including their own sins? If your answer is "No, they don't," then please give Scripture proving that we don't practice physical circumcision or have animal sacrifices today. Doing so will reveal the problem with using Mark 2:27 to prove the Sabbath is still in effect.

God knew that people would forget His Sabbath which is why it was given again at Mt Sinai, where Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that gives us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 starts off "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy. *Exodus 20:8. God knew we would forget it. Today the Christian world follows after man-made teachings and traditions that has led many away from God and His Word.

There is not a single scripture in all of Gods' Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many to break God's 4th commandment. Jesus says in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God.

This section uses the fact that the Ten Commandments list the Sabbath as the 4th commandment as proof we must keep the Sabbath today. In 2 Corinthians 3:5-11, what is the "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones" (v. 7, NKJV), which is later called "what is passing away" (v. 11, NKJV)?

Jesus says the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers, will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. According to the scriptures, God's people are in every Church and he is calling his people out from following man-made teachings and traditions to return to the pure Word of God *see John 10:16; Revelation 18:1-5; John 4:23-24. "Fear God" [therefore and not man], and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. *Revelation 14:7. Babylon has fallen *Revelation 14:8-12. God's sheep will hear His voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear will not follow because they are not His sheep according to John 10:27-28.

Take Care.

Amen! Let's follow God's word, including what God's word says about the Ten Commandments in 2 Corinthians 3:5-11. This passage, as with all other Scripture passages, is the truth. Let's believe the Scriptures that say God blessed the seventh day, but let's also believe the passages that say the Sabbath was given specifically (i.e., as a "sign" to "sanctify") to Israel. (You don't give something as a sign to someone if they already had it, or if everyone's already had it for centuries.)

 

[Kilk1]

The Sabbath was made for God's people, not the wicked and the unbelieving just the same as God's Word is for God's people, not the wicked and the unbelieving because it is written "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him." *John 3:31 and again "the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, said my God, to the wicked *Isaiah 57:21-22 see also, Ezekiel 18:20; Daniel 12:10;

Not at all. According to the scriptures in the new covenant God's Word is for all those who choose to believe and follow what God's Word says *John 3:16-21; John 3:31; Ephesians 2:8-9. In the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29) Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). In the new covenant God's 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. If we are not a part of Gods' Israel in the new covenant we have no part in God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). According to the scriptures, gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27

Not really. It is context that your disregarding here. Jesus in Mark 2:27 saying that "the Sabbath was made for man" connects directly to "made" or the making of "the Sabbath day" that the scriptures define as "the seventh day" of the creation week which is linked directly to creation and Genesis 2:1-3 where the Sabbath was made for mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings). There was only Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings). As posted earlier there was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. This is what Mark 2:27 links to "the making and the creation of the Sabbath" for all mankind which Jesus is the Lord over (creator).

Once again, according to the scriptures Gods Word is for believers not unbelievers. The Sabbath and God's Word was made for God's people who are now in the new covenant all those who believe and follow what Gods 'Word says. God's Word is not for the wicked and the unbelieving because as posted earlier, it is written "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him." *John 3:31 and again "the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, said my God, to the wicked *Isaiah 57:21 see also, Ezekiel 18:20; Daniel 12:10;

According to the scriptures in the new covenant God's Word is for all those who choose to believe and follow what God's Word says *John 3:16-21; John 3:31; Ephesians 2:8-9. In the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29).

Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3).

In the new covenant God's 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. If we are not a part of Gods' Israel in the new covenant we have no part in God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). According to the scriptures, gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27. God's Word therefore is only for believers not for the unbelieving wicked who do not believe and follow what God's Word says.

Take Care.

If I wanted to summarize your last post into a few points, it'd seem to be this:

1. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for "man" (Mark 2:27).
2. At the time the Sabbath was "made," the only members of "man[kind]" were Adam and Eve.
3. The people existing at the time something (in this case, the Sabbath) was made, must be the people that it's for.
4. Therefore, the Sabbath was made for Adam and Eve (and all their descendants).

We both agree that 1 is true, but 1 isn't relevant, since "man" sometimes is less than "all mankind." Again, Jesus said in John 7:22-23 that the Jews would "circumcise a man [Greek, anthropos] on the Sabbath" (NKJV, emphasis mine). And the Bible says in Hebrews 5:1-3 that every high priest is taken from among "men" (Greek, anthropos) and appointed for "men" (Greek, anthropos) to offer sacrifices for sins, including his own sin. Also, the Bible says in Hebrews 7:28 that "the law appoints men [Greek, anthropos] as high priests who have weakness," (WEB, emphasis mine). Therefore, just because the word "man" (Greek, anthropos) is used doesn't prove that it's "all mankind."

Points 2 and 3 need to be true in order for 4 to be true. Regarding Point 2, it may be true. (Some say Genesis 2:3 actually is a parenthetical statement on what would happen later, in Exodus. However, I won't argue such, since I'm not sure it's true.) However, Point 3 is false, and therefore, you can't prove 4. The reason 3 is false is because "herbs" were made when no one, not even Adam and Eve, were alive, yet they were for people that'd come later. Also, "seasons" were for people that'd come later. So it isn't true to say the people existing at the time something was made are the ones it's for, or else "herbs" and "seasons" would be for no one!

I've asked a lot of questions in the last post, and we both have written a lot. I don't expect you to have to reply to everything above. I'll only expect you to reply to the questions below:

1. If you believe that when something is made is the same time it's given, what day did God make the herbs (Genesis 1:11-13), and what day did God give the herbs to man (Genesis 1:29-31)? Was the making and the giving on the same day, or different days?
2. If you believe that when something is made is the same time it's given, could you explain what the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) means in Genesis 1:14? (I had previously asked, "could you explain what the term "signs" (Hebrew, ‘owth) and the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) mean in Genesis 1:14?" However, while you did reference Brown-Driver-Briggs for "signs," you didn't reference Brown-Driver-Briggs [or any other source] for "seasons.") What does "seasons" (Hebrew, moed) mean?
3. If you believe that when something is made is the same time it's given, when was the Sabbath "given" according to Ezekiel 20:10-12?
4. Isn't it taught in Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20 that the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel to sanctify them/set them apart, just like circumcision was a sign between God and the seed of Abraham (Genesis 17:10-11)? If so, how could it have been a sign to set them apart if it were really for all nations?
5. How was the Sabbath "made known" (Nehemiah 9:14) and "given" (Ezekiel 20:12) to Israel if everyone had already had it from all of creation. If you'd say it was forgotten and had to be given again (even though the text doesn't say "again"), then even still, do you agree that no one living on earth had the Sabbath when Moses was born?
6. If someone were to claim, "Since John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, and Hebrews 7:28 say 'man' (Greek, anthropos) and not 'Jews,' this proves people from 'all mankind,' Jew and Gentile, were circumcised, were appointed as high priests in the law, and offered sacrifices for sins, including their own sins," then how would you show them that they're misinterpreting the passages?
7. Is spiritual Israel today under the old covenant or the new? To be more specific, in 2 Corinthians 3:5-11, what is the "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones," (v. 7, NKJV), which is later called "what is passing away" (v. 11, NKJV)?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Brother, the Scriptures oppose the human tradition that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is a weekday as assumed since Joshua.

Agreed. That is not what I am saying.

Your rejection of "another day" requires that the Hebrews 3 and 4 passage mean "Jesus" and not "Joshua" to defend the tradition, from the phrase "another day". Found in the King James Version of the Bible as "Jesus" is "Joshua" who led "them" to the Promised Land before David as translated in most modern translations, because "Jesus" was not before David like the King James Bible translated the name wrongly when it is impossible within the context of the message of Hebrews 3 and 4 for Jesus to live before David.

What are you talking about. I have stated no such thing. I posted from the scriptures the "another day" represents the coming of Jesus.

The King James Bible is wrong here, it cannot be “Jesus”, because God could not have spoken “afterward”, of “another day” through David, placing "Jesus" before David or as most other modern Bibles translate the name before David, "Joshua", who after Moses led "them" to the Promised Land before David.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua (not Jesus) had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Not really. Your just repeating yourself here. According to the scriptures, The "ANOTHER DAY (not place in Hebrews 4:7-8)" is in reference to the coming of MESSIAH JESUS and the preaching of the Gospel. God's people who did not enter GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) in the wilderness did not enter in because they did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

When I said, "Just because something was made 'for' someone doesn't necessarily mean it was being practiced then," you reply, "It does not mean that they did not practice it either." I agree. Referencing "when" a day was made neither proves neither 1) that it was practiced then nor 2) that it was not practiced then. Therefore, can we agree that showing "when" a day was made doesn't prove either way whether it was practiced, and that therefore, this argument shouldn't be used? Arguments that don't prove either side, aren't that useful, after all. If you agree that we should stop using the "Sabbath was made at creation" argument, then it doesn't matter that there was no Moses, no Jews, and no Israel, since the time something's made isn't necessarily the time it's given.

According to the scriptures the Sabbath was kept by Adam and Eve at creation. As shown from the scriptures already, God's people were obeying Gods' laws before they were given at Mt Sinai *Genesis 26:5. Jesus saying that the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27 and the Sabbath being made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 for all mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) shows that the Sabbath was given to man at creation who was made on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. For me if according to the scriptures Gods' people were keeping God's laws before Mt Sinai as shown in Genesis 26:5 it is presumption to think that they were not keeping God's Sabbath when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man at creation. Regardless, of whether one believes the Sabbath was kept after creation or at Mt Sinai it was given again by God as one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *1 John 3:4 in Exodus 20:8-11 so there is no argument that can be used to simply disregard what the scriptures say here or anyone of God's 10 commandments. As James teaches in the new testament scriptures, if we knowingly break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them. *James 2:10-11; see also Hebrews 10:26-31.

If you disagree and still insist that when something is made is the same time it's given, then please answer these questions:

Of course I disagree and have outlined why from the scriptures in the last two posts you have been quoting from and have only partly responded to.

What day did God make the herbs (Genesis 1:11-13), and what day did God give the herbs to man (Genesis 1:29-31)? Was the making and the giving on the same day, or different days?

Your argument and question here is a mute point. Why? According to the scriptures God created food for man before man was created. (see Genesis 1:11-13 and Genesis 1:26:31). This is different to the example that you were provided of Jesus stating that the Sabbath was made for mankind in Mark 2:27 when man was made on the 6th day of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31 and the Sabbath was made and given to man on the "seventh day" of the creation week as shown in Genesis 2:1-3. Let me ask you who was God setting apart the "seventh day" of the week for in Genesis 2:1-3? Who was God blessing the "seventh day" of the week for in Genesis 2:1-3? and who was God making the "seventh day" of the week a holy day of rest for in Genesis 2:1-3?

Could you explain what the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) means in Genesis 1:14? (I had previously asked, "could you explain what the term "signs" (Hebrew, ‘owth) and the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) mean in Genesis 1:14?" However, while you did reference Brown-Driver-Briggs for "signs," you didn't reference Brown-Driver-Briggs [or any other source] for "seasons.") What does "seasons" (Hebrew, moed) mean?

This question was already addressed in previous posts to you but I am happy to address it again. Here you were trying to argue that signs represent the annual Feast days earlier in our discussion. As posted earlier, Genesis 1:14 is not a reference to the annual Feast days as they were not given until the Mosaic covenant in Exodus. Genesis 1:14 simply says "God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. I think your trying to read the annual Feast days into Genesis 1:14 which is not there. The annual Feast days came after the fall of mankind under the Mosaic covenant and Gods' plan of salvation for those who choose to believe and follow what His Word says. According to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged the Hebrew word used for "signs" is אוֺת (owth H226) and for Genesis 1:14 it says signs, tokens of changes of weather & times Gen 1:14 (P; of heavenly luminaries) הַשָּׁמַיִם אוֺתוֺת Jer 10:2 (changes of the heavens as omens to frighten the nations) compare Psa 65:9. [Edit: the meaning of "seasons" was missed out here. Please see answer to this question in post # 177 linked]

When was the Sabbath "given" according to Ezekiel 20:10-12?

As shown through the scriptures above the Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for mankind and the Sabbath was made for mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week where God set apart the "seventh day" of the week, blessed the "seventh day" of the week and made the "seventh day" of the week a "holy day" of rest for all mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) in Genesis 2:1-3. When God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was only Adam and Eve who were created on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. When God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3.

The physical nation of Israel according to the scriptures did not come until many generations latter. It was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that God would make there dependence as the sand of the see and a great nation of people in the earth (see Genesis 22:15-18; Genesis 25:31; Genesis 32:11-12. When Jacob wrestled with God for deliverance from his brother for stealing the birthright God changed the name of Jacob to Israel *Genesis 32:24-28.

The name "Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. The origin of the name "Israel" come from Genesis 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob) *Genesis 35:22-26. At this time Joseph was born and God has a special work for him who became the a ruler in Egypt *Genesis 41:41 and God sent a great famine on the land *Genesis 41:54 and God used Joseph to save Gods' people from the famine by bringing in all of the sons of Israel (Jacob) into Egypt where they continued to live *Genesis 45:9 for 430 years Exodus 12:40. And their rose up a King of Egypt that knew not of Joseph *Exodus 1:8 and put all the Israelite's and descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob into slavery *Exodus 1 to Exodus 10.

Now according to Ezekiel 20:10-12 which says; [10], Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. [11], And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. [12], Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

God repeated all His commandments and laws at Mount Sinai (Exodus 20; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers) and made a covenant between God and His people who He named Israel which was different to the covenant he made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This was the Mosaic covenant made between God and His collective people who believe and follow God's Word. Of course Gods' people knew of the Sabbath before Mt Sinai as shown in Exodus 16. So your question is simply one separated from historical scripture context. Gods people have existed before the Exodus and have always kept God's laws and commandments as shown in Genesis 26:5. Jesus saying that the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27 which was made after Adam and Eve were created on the seventh day of the creation week that God separated, blessed and made a holy day for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

You say my belief is speculation unsupported by the Scriptures, referencing when I said, "What I believe is that God rested on the seventh day. However, the Sabbath wasn't given to man until after Israel left Egypt, and it was given/made known specifically to physical Israel (Exodus 16:29; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12)." How is this speculation?

See previous sections. Your basing your arguments on scripture specific to the time period of the emergence of Israel however Jesus specifically states that the Sabbath was made for all mankind and the Sabbath was made at creation after mankind was created *Genesis 1:26-31 where God made the Sabbath on the seventh day of the creation week where He separated "the seventh day" of the week from all the other days of the week, and blessed the "seventh day" and made "the seventh day" a holy day of rest for all mankind as a memorial of creation (Exodus 20:8-11) and commands us to keep Holy. As posted earlier, your beliefs and claims here are simply speculation unsupported by the scriptures. As posted earlier the scriptures says in the very words of Jesus, that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, and was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. There was only Adam and Eve created on the "sixth day" of the creation week made in the image of God *Genesis 1:26-31. If God made the Sabbath for mankind why would you think he is not going to tell him about it? - Genesis 26:5.

The Scriptures do support my claim "that God rested on the seventh day" (Genesis 2:1-3) and they do support my claim that "it was given/made known specifically to physical Israel (Exodus 16:29; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12). Notice the Scriptures given. If they don't teach what I say they teach, please explain what they do teach if not that the Sabbath "was given/made known specifically to physical Israel (Exodus 16:29; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12)." How was the Sabbath "made known" (Nehemiah 9:14) and "given" (Ezekiel 20:12) to Israel if everyone had already had it from all of creation?

We are in agreement that the scriptures support the claim that God rested on the seventh day and that God gave the Sabbath to His people Israel who are defined in the scriptures are all those who believe and follow what Gods Word says. However, that is not our argument and something that we are in agreement about. The scriptures do not support your claims that God's Sabbath was not given to God's people at creation. The scriptures do not support your arguments that the Sabbath is no longer one of God's 10 commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is when broken and that it is ok to disregard it. The scriptures do not support your teachings that God's 4th commandment has now been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. These teachings are not supported by the scriptures.

This section uses the fact that the Ten Commandments list the Sabbath as the 4th commandment as proof we must keep the Sabbath today. In 2 Corinthians 3:5-11, what is the "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones" (v. 7, NKJV), which is later called "what is passing away" (v. 11, NKJV)?

It is the ministration of condemnation and death by the letter that is done away by the ministration of the Spirit through God's mercy, grace and forgiveness through faith that works by love in fulfillment of Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) that is done away not God's 10 commandments. All God's 10 commandments do under the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. An interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about abolishing Gods' 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction to Paul when he says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes God's law and again in Romans 13:8-10 where Paul says we love our neighbor as our self by being obedient to those laws in God's 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our fellow man. Indeed the ministration of the Spirit is greater the than the ministration of the letter because while the letter brings death and condemnation while the Spirit brings life and forgiveness through Christ and writes the law on the heart through faith that works by love which is Gods' new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 6:1-23.

Let's believe the Scriptures that say God blessed the seventh day, but let's also believe the passages that say the Sabbath was given specifically (i.e., as a "sign" to "sanctify" to Israel. You don't give something as a sign to someone if they already had it, or if everyone's already had it for centuries.)

As posted earlier, according to the scriptures in the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29). Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier through the scriptures, when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for human beings in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). You cannot get around what is written in the scriptures here.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If I wanted to summarize your last post into a few points, it'd seem to be this

Well to be honest you simply hand waived the post you were quoting from here while not addressing anything in the post and the scriptures that was shared with you there.

1. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for "man" (Mark 2:27).
2. At the time the Sabbath was "made," the only members of "man[kind]" were Adam and Eve.
3. The people existing at the time something (in this case, the Sabbath) was made, must be the people that it's for.
4. Therefore, the Sabbath was made for Adam and Eve (and all their descendants).

We both agree that 1 is true, but 1 isn't relevant, since "man" sometimes is less than "all mankind." Again, Jesus said in John 7:22-23 that the Jews would "circumcise a man [Greek, anthropos] on the Sabbath" (NKJV, emphasis mine). And the Bible says in Hebrews 5:1-3 that every high priest is taken from among "men" (Greek, anthropos) and appointed for "men" (Greek, anthropos) to offer sacrifices for sins, including his own sin. Also, the Bible says in Hebrews 7:28 that "the law appoints men [Greek, anthropos] as high priests who have weakness," (WEB, emphasis mine). Therefore, just because the word "man" (Greek, anthropos) is used doesn't prove that it's "all mankind."

Actually no we are not in agreement. As shown through the post and scriptures already shared with you. Your only repeating your same arguments here which has already been shown through the scriptures not to support your claims and teachings in regards to Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. As shown through the scriptures earlier your disregarding scripture context and application to word meanings for interpretation. Word meaning does not supersede scripture context for interpretation of the scriptures as we are prayerfully led by the Spirit of Gods' Word. Context matters. Your making arguments devoid of context.

Points 2 and 3 need to be true in order for 4 to be true. Regarding Point 2, it may be true. (Some say Genesis 2:3 actually is a parenthetical statement on what would happen later, in Exodus. However, I won't argue such, since I'm not sure it's true.) However, Point 3 is false, and therefore, you can't prove 4. The reason 3 is false is because "herbs" were made when no one, not even Adam and Eve, were alive, yet they were for people that'd come later. Also, "seasons" were for people that'd come later. So it isn't true to say the people existing at the time something was made are the ones it's for, or else "herbs" and "seasons" would be for no one!

No not at all. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures, God created food for man before man was created. (see Genesis 1:11-13 and Genesis 1:26:31). The is different to the example that you were provided of Jesus stating that the Sabbath was made for mankind in Mark 2:27 when man was made on the 6th day of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31 and the Sabbath was made and given to man on the "seventh day" of the creation week as shown in Genesis 2:1-3. Your trying to make arguments outside of context and subject matter. This is where your mistake lies.

I've asked a lot of questions in the last post, and we both have written a lot.

I am just wondering if your reading my posts to you. I have addressed all of your questions to you that I am aware of. What questions have I not already addressed with a scripture response? Yet I do not think you have answered any of my questions to you.

1. If you believe that when something is made is the same time it's given, what day did God make the herbs (Genesis 1:11-13), and what day did God give the herbs to man (Genesis 1:29-31)? Was the making and the giving on the same day, or different days?

Already answered elsewhere more than once now your repeating the same questions; As posted earlier, according to the scriptures, God created food for man before man was created. (see Genesis 1:11-13 and Genesis 1:26:31). The is different to the example that you were provided of Jesus stating that the Sabbath was made for mankind in Mark 2:27 when man was made on the 6th day of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31 and the Sabbath was made and given to man on the "seventh day" of the creation week as shown in Genesis 2:1-3. Your trying to make arguments outside of context and subject matter. This is where your mistake lies.

2. If you believe that when something is made is the same time it's given, could you explain what the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) means in Genesis 1:14? (I had previously asked, "could you explain what the term "signs" (Hebrew, ‘owth) and the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) mean in Genesis 1:14?" However, while you did reference Brown-Driver-Briggs for "signs," you didn't reference Brown-Driver-Briggs [or any other source] for "seasons.") What does "seasons" (Hebrew, moed) mean?

Already answered elsewhere more than once now your repeating the same questions; Here were trying to argue that signs represent the annual Feast days earlier in our discussion. As posted earlier, Genesis 1:14 is not a reference to the annual Feast days as they were not given until the Mosaic covenant in Exodus. Genesis 1:14 simply says "God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. I think your trying to read the annual Feast days into Genesis 1:14 which is not there. The annual Feast days came after the fall of mankind under the Mosaic covenant and Gods' plan of salvation for those who choose to believe and follow what His Word says. According to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged the Hebrew word used for "signs" is אוֺת (owth H226) and for Genesis 1:14 it says signs, tokens of changes of weather & times Gen 1:14 (P; of heavenly luminaries) הַשָּׁמַיִם אוֺתוֺת Jer 10:2 (changes of the heavens as omens to frighten the nations) compare Psa 65:9. [Edit: the meaning of "seasons" was missed out here. Please see answer to this question in post # 177 linked]

3. If you believe that when something is made is the same time it's given, when was the Sabbath "given" according to Ezekiel 20:10-12?

As shown through the scriptures above the Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for mankind and the Sabbath was made for mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week where God set apart the "seventh day" of the week, blessed the "seventh day" of the week and made the "seventh day" of the week a "holy day" of rest for all mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) in Genesis 2:1-3. When God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was only Adam and Eve who were created on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. When God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3.

The physical nation of Israel according to the scriptures did not come until many generations latter. It was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that God would make there dependence as the sand of the see and a great nation of people in the earth (see Genesis 22:15-18; Genesis 25:31; Genesis 32:11-12. When Jacob wrestled with God for deliverance from his brother for stealing the birthright God changed the name of Jacob to Israel *Genesis 32:24-28. The name "Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. The origin of the name "Israel" come from Genesis 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob) *Genesis 35:22-26. At this time Joseph was born and God has a special work for him who became the a ruler in Egypt *Genesis 41:41 and God sent a great famine on the land *Genesis 41:54 and God used Joseph to save Gods' people from the famine by bringing in all of the sons of Israel (Jacob) into Egypt where they continued to live *Genesis 45:9 for 430 years Exodus 12:40. And their rose up a King of Egypt that knew not of Joseph *Exodus 1:8 and put all the Israelite's and descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob into slavery *Exodus 1 to Exodus 10.

Now according to Ezekiel 20:10-12 which says; [10], Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. [11], And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. [12], Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

God repeated all His commandments and laws at Mount Sinai (Exodus 20; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers) and made a covenant between God and His people who He named Israel which was different to the covenant he made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This was the Mosaic covenant made between God and His collective people who believe and follow God's Word. Of course Gods' people knew of the Sabbath before Mt Sinai as shown in Exodus 16. So your question is simply one separated from historical scripture context. Gods people have existed before the Exodus and have always kept God's laws and commandments as shown in Genesis 26:5. Jesus saying that the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27 which was made after Adam and Eve were created on the seventh day of the creation week that God separated, blessed and made a holy day for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

4. Isn't it taught in Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20 that the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel to sanctify them/set them apart, just like circumcision was a sign between God and the seed of Abraham (Genesis 17:10-11)? If so, how could it have been a sign to set them apart if it were really for all nations?

No, the Sabbath is an everlasting covenant and sign that God is saving or sanctifying or saving His people from sin *Exodus 31:6; Exodus 31:13. The Sabbath is a "memorial" of creation that points backwards in remembrance (Exodus 20:8) to God as the creator of heaven and earth. Circumcision of the old covenant was a physical sign of a new heart given through faith in those who have been born again (John 2:2-7; 1 John 3:4-9) by faith in God's promises *see 1 Corinthians 7:19; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Deuteronomy 10:16; Deuteronomy 31:6; Jeremiah 4:4. Gods promises are only given to all those who through faith believe and follow what God's Word says *John 3:31; Ephesians 2:8-9; 1 John 5:2-4 not to the unbelieving wicked who do not believe and follow what Gods' Word says.

5. How was the Sabbath "made known" (Nehemiah 9:14) and "given" (Ezekiel 20:12) to Israel if everyone had already had it from all of creation. If you'd say it was forgotten and had to be given again (even though the text doesn't say "again"), then even still, do you agree that no one living on earth had the Sabbath when Moses was born?

Repetition of a previous question already answered from Ezekiel 20:12 (please refer to above and previous posts). No the Sabbath was known before Mt Sinai, to God's people in Genesis (Mark 2:27: Genesis 1:26-31; Genesis 2:1-3). The Sabbath was made known to Israel as a physical nation and collective peoples in fulfillment of Gods promises to Abraham who was already keeping Gods' laws (Genesis 26:5), Isaac and Jacob to their descendants named Israel, who were in slavery to the Egyptians *Exodus 16 by God himself personally during the Exodus *Exodus 16; Exodus 20:8-11.

6. If someone were to claim, "Since John 7:22-23, Hebrews 5:1-3, and Hebrews 7:28 say 'man' (Greek, anthropos) and not 'Jews,' this proves people from 'all mankind,' Jew and Gentile, were circumcised, were appointed as high priests in the law, and offered sacrifices for sins, including their own sins," then how would you show them that they're misinterpreting the passages?

Already addressed many times now. Context and subject matter are important. When Jesus says the Sabbath was made for mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) there was only Adam and Eve who were created on the 6th day of creation *Genesis 1:26-31. God created the Sabbath for them on the "seventh day" of the creation week, where God set apart the "seventh day" as a holy day of rest and blessed it for man *Genesis 2:1-3. Your disregarding scripture contexts and subject matter.

7. Is spiritual Israel today under the old covenant or the new? To be more specific, in 2 Corinthians 3:5-11, what is the "the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones," (v. 7, NKJV), which is later called "what is passing away" (v. 11, NKJV)?

Already addressed in previous posts. I am wondering if your reading them. According to the scriptures in the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29). Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier through the scriptures, when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for human beings in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). You cannot get around what is written in the scriptures here.

As posted earlier, it is the ministration of condemnation and death by the letter that is done away by the ministration of the Spirit through God's mercy, grace and forgiveness through faith that works by love in fulfillment of Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) that is done away not God's 10 commandments. All God's 10 commandments do under the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172.

An interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about abolishing Gods' 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction to Paul when he says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes God's law and again in Romans 13:8-10 where Paul says we love our neighbor as our self by being obedient to those laws in God's 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our fellow man. Indeed the ministration of the Spirit is greater the than the ministration of the letter because while the letter brings death and condemnation while the Spirit brings life and forgiveness through Christ and writes the law on the heart through faith that works by love which is Gods' new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 6:1-23.

Take Care.

 

[guevaraj]

Agreed. That is not what I am saying.

Brother, I didn't expect you to agree! What are you accepting? Have you understood in your personal study that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is not a weekday? The evidence is overwhelming and our tradition indefensible.

What are you talking about. I have stated no such thing. I posted from the scriptures the "another day" represents the coming of Jesus.

Since Joshua we have a human tradition that the Sabbath is a day of the week, when separated is the Sabbath from the week and, when corrected, we all enter God's "rest" together, falling on God's prime meridian. Established at the site of our origin in Eden.

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)​

Not really. Your just repeating yourself here. According to the scriptures, The "ANOTHER DAY (not place in Hebrews 4:7-8)" is in reference to the coming of MESSIAH JESUS and the preaching of the Gospel. God's people who did not enter GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) in the wilderness did not enter in because they did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Take Care.

They did not enter His "rest" due to the "oath" for 40 years, regardless of their repentance of unbelief and sin because God caused them to keep the wrong Sabbath with Manna near the Promised Land. They kept a Sabbath with Manna from morning to morning, as in Eden that is wrong near the Promised Land, where it falls from evening to evening, as God taught them to remember the Sabbath according to God's established prime meridian in Eden.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[pasifika]

Brother, I didn't expect you to agree! What are you accepting? Have you understood in your personal study that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is not a weekday? The evidence is overwhelming and our tradition indefensible.

Since Joshua we have a human tradition that the Sabbath is a day of the week, when separated is the Sabbath from the week and, when corrected, we all enter God's "rest" together, falling on God's prime meridian. Established at the site of our origin in Eden.

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)​

They did not enter His "rest" due to the "oath" for 40 years, regardless of their repentance of unbelief and sin because God caused them to keep the wrong Sabbath with Manna near the Promised Land. They kept a Sabbath with Manna from morning to morning, as in Eden that is wrong near the Promised Land, where it falls from evening to evening, as God taught them to remember the Sabbath according to God's established prime meridian in Eden.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Hello G, yes @LoveGodsWord agree that the Sabbath in the "promise land" is not on a weekday basis"...so he's saying the 7th day Sabbath is Not the Sabbath to be kept in the promise land...

You guys are bit funny...

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Brother, I didn't expect you to agree! What are you accepting? Have you understood in your personal study that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is not a weekday? The evidence is overwhelming and our tradition indefensible.

Since Joshua we have a human tradition that the Sabbath is a day of the week, when separated is the Sabbath from the week and, when corrected, we all enter God's "rest" together, falling on God's prime meridian. Established at the site of our origin in Eden.

Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. (Hebrews 4:8 NLT)​

They did not enter His "rest" due to the "oath" for 40 years, regardless of their repentance of unbelief and sin because God caused them to keep the wrong Sabbath with Manna near the Promised Land. They kept a Sabbath with Manna from morning to morning, as in Eden that is wrong near the Promised Land, where it falls from evening to evening, as God taught them to remember the Sabbath according to God's established prime meridian in Eden.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I have said no such thing. It seems clear that you do not know what I am saying to you for some reason. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, your disregarding scripture context. The "ANOTHER DAY (not place in Hebrews 4:7-8)" is in reference to the coming of MESSIAH JESUS and the preaching of the Gospel. God's people who did not enter GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) in the wilderness did not enter in because they did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Your disregarding scripture context because in Hebrews 4:2-3 [2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello G, yes @LoveGodsWord agree that the Sabbath in the "promise land" is not on a weekday basis"...so he's saying the 7th day Sabbath is Not the Sabbath to be kept in the promise land...

You guys are bit funny...

You seem to not be following what the conversation is about.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I've asked a lot of questions in the last post, and we both have written a lot.

Since I have answered all your questions and provided a detailed scripture response would you like to answer some of my questions which I will put up now for discussion.

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION.

Where is the scripture that says.....

[1]. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

[2]. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

[3]. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

[4]. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day of rest as a memorial of Christs resurrection?

[5]. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

[6]. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day of the week (Sunday) as a holy day?

[7]. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

[8]. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

[9]. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

[10]. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

[11]. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

[12]. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

[13]. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

[14]. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

[15]. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

[16]. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

[17]. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as a holy day?

[18]. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

[19]. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

[20]. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

[21]. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

[22]. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?


..................

Might stop here.

Take Care.

 

[Leaf473]

Hello everyone! I've been doing some study on whether the Sabbath (i.e., ceasing from work on the seventh day of the week, Saturday) was a universal law for all of mankind or a Mosaic commandment for the Jews. While some things are commanded in the Old Testament for Israel (and thus are not binding on Christians today), such as circumcision, other commands are universal and apply at all times, such as the prohibition against murder and adultery. The following is a three-reason case for the position that the Sabbath is a Mosaic shadow. If my case is flawed, you're my friend to let me know.



The Old Testament itself

First off, the Sabbath is said to be connected with the covenant of the children of Israel. To my knowledge, the rest of humankind is never told to observe the Sabbath (excluding proselytes to Judaism, of course). For example, Exodus 31:16–17 says specifically, "Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant" (NKJV, emphasis mine). We’re not under the old, Mosaic covenant, since it was made obsolete by the new, universal covenant (Hebrews 8:8-13).


Similarly, Nehemiah 9:5-15 lists a brief chronology of God's people from creation to Moses, emphasizing all that God had done, and puts the Sabbath as being “made known” during the time of Moses—not the time of creation (Nehemiah 9:6) or even the time of Abraham (Nehemiah 9:7-8), but the time of Moses (Nehemiah 9:14). (Granted, God blesses the seventh day in Genesis 2:2‐3, but it doesn’t say man did so. We never see man told to keep the Sabbath until Moses. More on this later.)


Ezekiel 20:10-12 mentions both points made in Exodus and Nehemiah: This passage mentions how God brought Israel out of Egypt (v. 10), how He gave them statues and judgements (v. 11), and how He gave them His Sabbaths "to be a sign between them and Me" (v. 12, NKJV).


So in Exodus, the Sabbath is specifically tied to the Mosaic covenant with Israel. In Nehemiah, God isn't said to have made the Sabbath known until the time of Moses. In Ezekiel's account, both are said to be the case, that God 1) "gave" the Sabbath during the time of Moses and 2) did so to be a sign between Israel and God.


Universal laws, such as the prohibition of murder, are condemned everywhere—before Moses (Genesis 9:6), during Moses (Exodus 20:13), and after Moses (Revelation 21:8). If the Sabbath were a universal law, why are Jews always the ones told to keep it, never the Gentiles (other than proselytes to Judaism, of course), and why is Israel singled out as the people it's for?



Jesus's treatment of the Sabbath

While Jesus was on earth, did He treat the Sabbath as a universal law like the universal laws against murder or adultery, or did He see it more in line with the Mosaic commandments like circumcision and eating only meats considered clean?


Regarding universal laws such as murder or adultery, we see that Jesus was stricter than the Pharisees in passages such as Matthew 5:17-30. However, He was more lenient than the Pharisees on the Sabbath. When the Pharisees confronted Him about it, Jesus referenced certain Mosaic laws that overrode the practice of the Sabbath on special occasions. He referenced work the priests did in the temple (Matthew 12:5) and circumcision (John 1:21-24), among other things.


Could Mosaic laws ever supersede a universal law such as murder or adultery? I don’t think so. Yet, Mosaic laws did supersede the Sabbath. Thus, Jesus' defense for doing the things He and His disciples did on the Sabbath assumes the Sabbath is a Mosaic law, not a universal law that could never be superseded.



The Sabbath as a shadow

Finally, Hebrews 4:1-11 tells us to make sure we don't fall short of God's rest (Hebrews 4:1). However, those who heard God's good news before us were rejected, God swearing they would not enter His rest (Hebrews 4:2-3). However, God's work was finished from the foundation of the world when He rested on the seventh day of creation, but He says those who rejected Him won't enter His rest (Hebrews 4:3-5).


There has to be some people who enter God's rest, though, so there’s another day, "Today," referenced back in Psalm 95:7-8 (Hebrews 4:6-7). This proves that God's rest isn't merely the physical Promised Land, since Psalm 95 was written after they entered the Promised Land, so it's speaking of another day (Hebrews 4:8). Therefore, there remains a Sabbath rest for God's people (Hebrews 4:9). It obviously isn't the literal Sabbath, but rather a rest we must be diligent to enter (Hebrews 4:10-12).


It seems that Sabbatarians have a point in saying the Sabbath commanded for Israel was connected with Genesis 2:2-3, in which God rested on the seventh day (Exodus 20:11; Exodus 31:16‐17). However, isn't Hebrews 4 saying that our Sabbath rest is found in the rest that "remains" for God's people, the one we must be diligent to “enter,” rather than in keeping the literal Sabbath? Doesn't the passage suggest that the Mosaic Sabbath is a shadow of something bigger, of the rest that we're obtaining as Christians? If so, then it seems Paul would tell us not to be judged about the old Sabbath days in Colossians 2:16–17 (NKJV, emphasis mine):


So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.


Mosaic practices are shadows, and it seems the Sabbath qualifies as such.



Conclusion

As argued, the Sabbath 1) was given specifically as part of a covenant with Israel, not other nations; 2) was treated as a Mosaic covenant (not a universal law) by Jesus; and 3) is spoken of as being a shadow of something greater.


Do these arguments hold up? They each are independent arguments, so if any of them stand, then the Sabbath is not binding on Christians today. Conversely, if the Sabbath is binding, then all three arguments would have to be false, from what I can tell.


I'm open to hearing the other side, as that's the best way to "Test all things" in order to see if my train of thought qualifies as "what is good" (1 Thess. 5:21, NKJV). I certainly wouldn't want to think something isn't binding if, in reality, it is. Thanks in advance for your input!

Definitely a shadow law.

I say this based on the
(in my experience)
impossibility of coming up with a list of the universal laws
that is both complete and reasonable.

 

[Kilk1]

According to the scriptures the Sabbath was kept by Adam and Eve at creation. As shown from the scriptures already, God's people were obeying Gods' laws before they were given at Mt Sinai *Genesis 26:5. Jesus saying that the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27 and the Sabbath being made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 for all mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) shows that the Sabbath was given to man at creation who was made on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. For me if according to the scriptures Gods' people were keeping God's laws before Mt Sinai as shown in Genesis 26:5 it is presumption to think that they were not keeping God's Sabbath when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for man at creation. Regardless, of whether one believes the Sabbath was kept after creation or at Mt Sinai it was given again by God as one of Gods' 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *1 John 3:4 in Exodus 20:8-11 so there is no argument that can be used to simply disregard what the scriptures say here or anyone of God's 10 commandments. As James teaches in the new testament scriptures, if we knowingly break anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of breaking all of them. *James 2:10-11; see also Hebrews 10:26-31.

[...]

Take Care.

Well to be honest you simply hand waived the post you were quoting from here while not addressing anything in the post and the scriptures that was shared with you there.

Actually no we are not in agreement. As shown through the post and scriptures already shared with you. Your only repeating your same arguments here which has already been shown through the scriptures not to support your claims and teachings in regards to Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4. As shown through the scriptures earlier your disregarding scripture context and application to word meanings for interpretation. Word meaning does not supersede scripture context for interpretation of the scriptures as we are prayerfully led by the Spirit of Gods' Word. Context matters. Your making arguments devoid of context.

No not at all. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures, God created food for man before man was created. (see Genesis 1:11-13 and Genesis 1:26:31). The is different to the example that you were provided of Jesus stating that the Sabbath was made for mankind in Mark 2:27 when man was made on the 6th day of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31 and the Sabbath was made and given to man on the "seventh day" of the creation week as shown in Genesis 2:1-3. Your trying to make arguments outside of context and subject matter. This is where your mistake lies.

I am just wondering if your reading my posts to you. I have addressed all of your questions to you that I am aware of. What questions have I not already addressed with a scripture response? Yet I do not think you have answered any of my questions to you.

Already answered elsewhere more than once now your repeating the same questions; As posted earlier, according to the scriptures, God created food for man before man was created. (see Genesis 1:11-13 and Genesis 1:26:31). The is different to the example that you were provided of Jesus stating that the Sabbath was made for mankind in Mark 2:27 when man was made on the 6th day of the creation week in Genesis 1:26-31 and the Sabbath was made and given to man on the "seventh day" of the creation week as shown in Genesis 2:1-3. Your trying to make arguments outside of context and subject matter. This is where your mistake lies.

Already answered elsewhere more than once now your repeating the same questions; Here were trying to argue that signs represent the annual Feast days earlier in our discussion. As posted earlier, Genesis 1:14 is not a reference to the annual Feast days as they were not given until the Mosaic covenant in Exodus. Genesis 1:14 simply says "God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. I think your trying to read the annual Feast days into Genesis 1:14 which is not there. The annual Feast days came after the fall of mankind under the Mosaic covenant and Gods' plan of salvation for those who choose to believe and follow what His Word says. According to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged the Hebrew word used for "signs" is אוֺת (owth H226) and for Genesis 1:14 it says signs, tokens of changes of weather & times Gen 1:14 (P; of heavenly luminaries) הַשָּׁמַיִם אוֺתוֺת Jer 10:2 (changes of the heavens as omens to frighten the nations) compare Psa 65:9.

As shown through the scriptures above the Jesus says in Mark 2:27 that the Sabbath was made for mankind and the Sabbath was made for mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week where God set apart the "seventh day" of the week, blessed the "seventh day" of the week and made the "seventh day" of the week a "holy day" of rest for all mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) in Genesis 2:1-3. When God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was only Adam and Eve who were created on the 6th day of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. When God made the Sabbath for all mankind there was no​

Moses, no Jews, no Israel no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3.

The physical nation of Israel according to the scriptures did not come until many generations latter. It was the beginning of the fulfillment of the promise made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob that God would make there dependence as the sand of the see and a great nation of people in the earth (see Genesis 22:15-18; Genesis 25:31; Genesis 32:11-12. When Jacob wrestled with God for deliverance from his brother for stealing the birthright God changed the name of Jacob to Israel *Genesis 32:24-28. The name "Israel" is only a name given by God himself to represent his people. The origin of the name "Israel" come from Genesis 32:28 where Jacob wrestled with the Angel and prevailed ...for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. Its meaning is his posterity will rule as God. Jacob had 12 sons representing the 12 tribes of Israel (Jacob) *Genesis 35:22-26. At this time Joseph was born and God has a special work for him who became the a ruler in Egypt *Genesis 41:41 and God sent a great famine on the land *Genesis 41:54 and God used Joseph to save Gods' people from the famine by bringing in all of the sons of Israel (Jacob) into Egypt where they continued to live *Genesis 45:9 for 430 years Exodus 12:40. And their rose up a King of Egypt that knew not of Joseph *Exodus 1:8 and put all the Israelite's and descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob into slavery *Exodus 1 to Exodus 10.

Now according to Ezekiel 20:10-12 which says; [10], Wherefore I caused them to go forth out of the land of Egypt, and brought them into the wilderness. [11], And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them. [12], Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.

God repeated all His commandments and laws at Mount Sinai (Exodus 20; Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers) and made a covenant between God and His people who He named Israel which was different to the covenant he made with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. This was the Mosaic covenant made between God and His collective people who believe and follow God's Word. Of course Gods' people knew of the Sabbath before Mt Sinai as shown in Exodus 16. So your question is simply one separated from historical scripture context. Gods people have existed before the Exodus and have always kept God's laws and commandments as shown in Genesis 26:5. Jesus saying that the Sabbath was made for mankind *Mark 2:27 which was made after Adam and Eve were created on the seventh day of the creation week that God separated, blessed and made a holy day for all mankind *Genesis 2:1-3.

[...]

Take Care.

Since I have answered all your questions and provided a detailed scripture response would you like to answer some of my questions which I will put up now for discussion.

QUESTIONS FOR DISCUSSION.

Where is the scripture that says.....

[1]. That God's 4th commandments 7th day Sabbath has been abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day of rest?

[2]. That Jesus is a Sabbath?

[3]. The Sabbath (seventh day) was ever changed from the seventh to the first day of the week?

[4]. Where we are told to keep the first day of the week as a holy day of rest as a memorial of Christs resurrection?

[5]. Where the first day of the week (Sunday) is ever called a holy day?

[6]. That says that Jesus ever kept the first day of the week (Sunday) as a holy day?

[7]. Where the first day is ever given any sacred name?

[8]. That affirms that any of the apostles ever kept the first day as the Sabbath?

[9]. From any apostolic writings that authorizes Sunday observance as the Sabbath of God?

[10]. Where we are told not to work on the first day of the week?

[11]. That says the seventh day is no longer God's Sabbath day?

[12]. Where the apostles ever taught any convert to keep the first day of the week as a Sabbath?

[13]. Where the first day was ever appointed to be kept as the Lord's Day?

[14]. Where the first day of the week is ever called the Lord's Day?

[15]. That says that the first day of the week was ever sanctified and hallowed as a day of rest?

[16]. That says that the Father or the Son (Jesus) rested on the first day of the week?

[17]. That says that Jesus, Paul or any other of the apostles taught anyone to observe the first day of the week as a holy day?

[18]. That calls the seventh day the “Jewish Sabbath” or one text that calls Sunday the “Christian Sabbath”?

[19]. Telling man to keep the first day of the week holy or to worship or rest on the first day of the week?

[20]. Authorizing anyone to set aside God's Sabbath and observe any other day?

[21]. Declaring that the seventh day is no longer the Eternal Sabbath day?

[22]. Where Sunday is now appointed to be kept as the New Testament Sabbath or holy day?


..................

Might stop here.

Take Care.

Thank you for answering most of my 7 questions. I apologize for not having answered questions you asked, and I assure you such isn't intentional; I'm not avoiding questions. One way to make sure I reply to something is to have a list of questions, which you've now done. When they're all listed in one place, I can easily respond to each of them. Since you now listed questions, I'll be sure to respond to all 22 of them.

But before I do so, I wish to point out that you haven't answered my important Question 2, which asked: "If you believe that when something is made is the same time it's given, could you explain what the term 'seasons' (Hebrew, mo‘ed) means in Genesis 1:14? (I had previously asked, 'could you explain what the term "signs" (Hebrew, ‘owth) and the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) mean in Genesis 1:14?' However, while you did reference Brown-Driver-Briggs for "signs," you didn't reference Brown-Driver-Briggs [or any other source] for "seasons.") What does "seasons" (Hebrew, moed) mean?"

Your reply didn't answer what "seasons" means but instead what "signs" means. I'm not asking what "signs" mean. Instead I'm asking what "seasons" (not "signs"), yes "seasons" (not "signs") means. The Hebrew word is mo‘ed. Originally I had asked what both "signs" and what "seasons" meant, since both words appear in Genesis 1:14, but you only answered half of that, namely what "signs" are. You never defined "seasons," and Question 2 asks you to define "seasons" (not "signs").

This is a significant point. In fact, determining the definition of "seasons" (again, not "signs") as used in Genesis 1:14 will help in seeing the answers to your questions and confirm a lot of what I'm saying. Since I took pains to ask what "seasons" meant, even pointing out in Question 2 that you didn't define "seasons" but just "signs," a skeptical person could think you're deliberately trying to get out of answering what "seasons" means out of fear, and so you instead only defined "signs" despite me mentioning both "signs" and "seasons."

Since love believes the best (1 Corinthians 13:7), I'm not going to assume that failing to answer what "seasons" (not "signs") means the last two times I asked, is deliberate on your part. Perhaps it was an oversight, since "signs" could look similar to "seasons." After all, I apparently didn't answer questions you asked, and that wasn't intentional.

If you're honest, and I believe you are, then could you answer what "seasons" (not signs) means? Again, determining the definition of "seasons" (not "signs") will help in seeing the answers to your questions and confirm a lot of what I'm saying.

If you answer what "seasons" (again, not "signs") means, then I'll respond to all 22 questions you asked, and likely any other questions you'd like me to reply to. Does that sound good? Perhaps you could use the source you used before, Brown-Driver-Briggs. (And again, I'm asking about mo‘ed [H4150], translated "seasons" in Genesis 1:14 [not, ‘owth [H226], translated "signs"]. Not "signs," but "seasons" [H4150].)

Thanks,
Kilk1

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Definitely a shadow law.

I say this based on the
(in my experience)
impossibility of coming up with a list of the universal laws
that is both complete and reasonable.

Not according to scripture though. How can God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments be a shadow law when it points "backwards" and to the "finished work of creation" and not "forwards to things to come" - Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Colossians 2:16. God's 10 commandments are universal laws that have the same purpose they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and willfully choose to reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come which will devour the adversaries *Hebrews 10:26-31; see also 1 John 2:3-4 according to the scriptures.

Take Care.

 

[pasifika]

Not according to scripture though. How can the God's 4th commandment of the 10 commandments be a shadow law when it points "backwards" and to the "finished work of creation" and not "forwards to things to come" - Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11; Colossians 2:16. God's 10 commandments are universal laws that have the same purpose they always have and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and according to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. According to Hebrews 10:26-31 once we have been given a knowledge of the truth of Gods' Word and willfully choose to reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come which will devour the adversaries *Hebrews 10:26-31; see also 1 John 2:3-4.

Take Care.

Hello @LoveGodsWord, so who rest on the 7th day in creation?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Thank you for answering most of my 7 questions.

Your welcome, It is nice to have a friendly discussion with someone for a change that wants to talk scripture details. I am enjoying my discussion with you. We should not be afraid of coming to the light of Gods' Word if we truly wish to follow Jesus. After all it is only in the Word of God as we are prayerfully guided by Gods' Spirit that Jesus promises we will know the truth of Gods' Word and the truth will make us free *John 8:31-36 see also John 3:18-21.

I apologize for not having answered questions you asked, and I assure you such isn't intentional; I'm not avoiding questions. One way to make sure I reply to something is to have a list of questions, which you've now done. When they're all listed in one place, I can easily respond to each of them. Since you now listed questions, I'll be sure to respond to all 22 of them.

Thank you Kilk1, there is no need to be in any hurry, I had other questions as well but I think I overdid that post so no hurry, I also provided a detailed scripture response to your last two posts so I understand it may take some time to sort through everything. I appreciate the friendly discussion.

But before I do so, I wish to point out that you haven't answered my important Question 2, which asked: "If you believe that when something is made is the same time it's given, could you explain what the term 'seasons' (Hebrew, mo‘ed) means in Genesis 1:14? (I had previously asked, 'could you explain what the term "signs" (Hebrew, ‘owth) and the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) mean in Genesis 1:14?' However, while you did reference Brown-Driver-Briggs for "signs," you didn't reference Brown-Driver-Briggs [or any other source] for "seasons.") What does "seasons" (Hebrew, moed) mean?"

Your reply didn't answer what "seasons" means but instead what "signs" means. I'm not asking what "signs" mean. Instead I'm asking what "seasons" (not "signs"), yes "seasons" (not "signs") means. The Hebrew word is mo‘ed. Originally I had asked what both "signs" and what "seasons" meant, since both words appear in Genesis 1:14, but you only answered half of that, namely what "signs" are. You never defined "seasons," and Question 2 asks you to define "seasons" (not "signs").

This is a significant point. In fact, determining the definition of "seasons" (again, not "signs") as used in Genesis 1:14 will help in seeing the answers to your questions and confirm a lot of what I'm saying. Since I took pains to ask what "seasons" meant, even pointing out in Question 2 that you didn't define "seasons" but just "signs," a skeptical person could think you're deliberately trying to get out of answering what "seasons" means out of fear, and so you instead only defined "signs" despite me mentioning both "signs" and "seasons."

Since love believes the best (1 Corinthians 13:7), I'm not going to assume that failing to answer what "seasons" (not "signs") means the last two times I asked, is deliberate on your part. Perhaps it was an oversight, since "signs" could look similar to "seasons." After all, I apparently didn't answer questions you asked, and that wasn't intentional.

If you're honest, and I believe you are, then could you answer what "seasons" (not signs) means? Again, determining the definition of "seasons" (not "signs") will help in seeing the answers to your questions and confirm a lot of what I'm saying.

If you answer what "seasons" (again, not "signs") means, then I'll respond to all 22 questions you asked, and likely any other questions you'd like me to reply to. Does that sound good? Perhaps you could use the source you used before, Brown-Driver-Briggs. (And again, I'm asking about mo‘ed [H4150], translated "seasons" in Genesis 1:14 [not, ‘owth [H226], translated "signs"]. Not "signs," but "seasons" [H4150].)

Thanks, Kilk1

My apologies here Kilk as I thought you were referring here specifically to "signs" which I already answered elsewhere in our discussion when I was asked so I thought that was the same question I already answered elsewhere. Once again sorry for my oversight here.

Let's discuss this question here in detail. We have looked at the Hebrew word "signs" אֹות (ʼôwth: H226) already which has meaning to weather events and the heavenly universe. Let's look specifically at the Hebrew word translated as "seasons" from Genesis 1:14...

The Hebrew word translated as "seasons" in Genesis 1:14 is from the Hebrew word מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) and according to Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged the Hebrew words application specifically to Genesis 1:14 translated as "seasons" means "sacred seasons". It says here in regards to Genesis 1:14 that moed (appointed times of the seasons) where ׳מ || אֹתֹת, the reference is to the sacred seasons as fixed by moon's appearance; and so also למ ירח ׳עשׂה he made the moon for sacred seasons Psa 104:19, most Lexicons & Commentaries refer these to the seasons of the year.

I also looked up the meaning from the Ancient Hebrew Lexicon of the Bible which gives an interesting application of the Hebrew word used in Genesis 1:14. Here they give the application and meaning of מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) to include "witness" or as an eye at the door or a place in time and event that is repeated each year (appointed times for a change in the seasons of the year; something that is repeated each year (appointed times); for a determinate period of time. So these are the main meanings and applications to (moed: H4150) translated as "seasons" in English in Genesis 1:14. The application in Genesis 1:14 is for changes in the seasons (appointed times of spring; summer, autumn, winter) of the year that are repeated every year (appointed times of the year).

Keep in mind here that when using Hebrew and Greek word meaning it is the context that determines the word meanings and application not definitions outside of context which is why the majority of bible translations translate the Hebrew word מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) as "seasons" in the English. Of course this same word has meaning and application in scripture context to the annual Feast days. Genesis 1:14 application to מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) is to the appointed times of the seasons of the year made by God as determined by the sun and the moon which is the creation context of the scriptures in Genesis 1:14.

In other scripture context the Hebrew word מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) is translated and applied to the Mosaic covenants annual Feast days which are also "appointed times" of the year just like the context of and scripture application of מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) was to "seasons" in Genesis 1:14. Both events (seasons and annual Feasts of the Mosaic covenant) were "Gods appointed times" but the creation appointed times in Genesis 1:14 were to the "seasons" of the year determined by the sun and the moon, while the annual Feast days of the old covenant were to God's appointed times for his people to meet together. These were all shadows of things to come in the new covenant promise prophetic to the coming of Jesus as the Messiah and his work on our behalf under God's new covenant promises *see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27: Hebrews 10:1-22.

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SUMMARY: As shown above it is the scripture context that must determine word meanings and application to scripture interpretation as we are prayerfully guided by Gods' Spirit to be our guide and teacher in His Word. The context of Genesis 1:14 is to the God's appointed times of the seasons of the year. Over a thousand years latter after the fall of mankind the Hebrew word מוֺעֵד (moed: H4150) is used in context and application to the annual Feast days of the Mosaic covenant which is different context to Genesis 1:14. Both are God's "appointed times". Genesis 1:14 is God's appointed times of the season, while the annual Feast days of the old covenant were God's appointed times for his people to meet together and offer up animal sacrifices and sin offerings. These were all shadows of things to come in the new covenant promise prophetic to the coming of Jesus as the Messiah and his work on our behalf under God's new covenant promises. Both the seasons of Genesis 1:14 and the annual Feast days provided latter are Gods' appointed times determined by the sun and the moon. Genesis 1:14 is God's appointed times for the seasons of the year. God's annual Feasts of the old covenant were Gods' appointed Feast days connected to the laws for remission of sins and animal sacrifices. Both of these moeds though different in context are determined by the sun and the moon. According to the scriptures, the sun and the moon determining their timing and endings is the only thing they have in common.

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Hope my response here is helpful. I guess I will leave you to answer the questions I have asked you now.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello @LoveGodsWord, so who rest on the 7th day in creation?

Of course it is Gods rest/My Rest /His Rest being referred to in Hebrews 4:1-5. It is the Sabbath rest that Jesus made for all mankind given at creation to Adam and Eve *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 and commanded by God Himself to all His people as one of God's 10 commandments in Exodus 20:8-11 that give us the knowledge or what sin is when broken in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and that remains behind for the people of God to keep in Hebrews 4:9. That is an everlasting covenant and sign with Gods people *Exodus 31:16-17 that will be continued to be kept in the new heavens and the new earth *Isaiah 66:22-23. A better question might be who do I believe and follow; God or man? Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29. Sunday worship is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many away from God and His Word to break the commandments of God. Jesus says if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are now worshiping God in Matthew 15:3-9. This begs the question who do we worship? "Fear God therefore and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. "Babylon has fallen" and God is calling us out to return to His Word *Revelation 14:7-12; Revelation 18:1-5.

 

[pasifika]

Of course it is Gods rest/My Rest /His Rest being referred to in Hebrews 4:1-5. It is the Sabbath rest that Jesus made for all mankind given at creation to Adam and Eve *Mark 2:27; Genesis 2:1-3 and commanded by God Himself to all His people as one of God's 10 commandments in Exodus 20:8-11 that give us the knowledge or what sin is when broken in the new covenant *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and that remains behind for the people of God to keep in Hebrews 4:9. That is an everlasting covenant and sign with Gods people *Exodus 31:16-17 that will be continued to be kept in the new heavens and the new earth *Isaiah 66:22-23. A better question might be who do I believe and follow; God or man? Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow them according to Romans 3:4 and Acts of the Apostles 5:29.

Hello LGW, did you rest on the 7th day in creation or God?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Hello LGW, did you rest on the 7th day in creation or God?

Already answered in post # 178 in the very post you are quoting from. What do you think the scriptures in that post are saying and what is it that you do not believe there or are having trouble understanding?

 

[guevaraj]

I have said no such thing. It seems clear that you do not know what I am saying to you for some reason. As posted earlier and shown through the scriptures, your disregarding scripture context. The "ANOTHER DAY (not place in Hebrews 4:7-8)" is in reference to the coming of MESSIAH JESUS and the preaching of the Gospel. God's people who did not enter GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) in the wilderness did not enter in because they did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Your disregarding scripture context because in Hebrews 4:2-3 [2], For to us was the gospel preached, as well as to them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. [3], For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. Take Care.

Brother, you are using Webster's revision of the King James Bible which incorrectly assumed the message preached to "them" was the gospel of Jesus when that identification is not possible because Jesus did not come before David. The message they heard that did not benefit "them" was the Manna story that opposed the Sabbath in the Promised Land as the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden. Nor have we benefited from this message to correct the human tradition since Joshua, because the Sabbath in the Promised Land is not the seventh day of the week as it was in Eden. Here is a translation that does not assume that "Joshua" is Jesus when translating the message that "they" did not benefit from. Notice that it says that we "can" enter and not that we have entered God's "rest" as forced due to interpreting Joshua as Jesus. Our tradition does not enter God's "rest" until corrected is God's Sabbath from the human tradition of thinking that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is the seventh day of the week as in Eden since Joshua.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua (not Jesus) had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge