The Sabbath: Universal law or Mosaic shadow?

[Torah Keeper]

Yahweh made the 7th day holy in Genesis 2.

Questions you should consider:

• How is it holy?
• How would Adam and Eve recognize it as holy?
• Did it ever stop being holy?
• Why is the 4th Commandment the only one where Yahweh says "Remember"?

 

[Kilk1]

Brother, there is verification in the word of God itself of having correctly understood that Gentiles "come in" to "all Israel". We "come in" to the "part" of "all Israel" that accepted Jesus!

Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the FULL NUMBER of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable. (Romans 11:25b-29 NIV)​

We who "come in" to "all Israel" are no longer Gentiles but part of "all Israel". Verified in this next passage through "citizenship" in Israel, we are no longer Gentiles, but part of "all Israel".

remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ... Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household (Ephesians 2:12,13,19 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

The covenant that was made with Israel before has been made obsolete (Hebrews 8:6-13). Paul wrote that we've become dead to the law in Romans 7:1-4 in order to be married to Christ. Although we've become dead to the law, Romans 7:7 explains this doesn't make law sin, however, since the law helped people to learn things through commands such as, "You shall not covet." That's significant since the command, "You shall not covet," is actually from the Ten Commandments, meaning that even the Ten Commandments are included in the "law" we've become dead to according to Romans 7. The Ten Commandments are even called "the ministry of death" in 2 Corinthians 3:7 (NKJV).

Since the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel (Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20) and since the old covenant has passed away, including even the Ten Commandments (Hebrews 8:6-13; Romans 7:1-4; Romans 7:7; 2 Corinthians 3:7), therefore we're not under the Sabbath today (cf. Colossians 2:16-17).

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I'm not sure. At the very least, non-desendants of Abraham wouldn't be expected to be circumcised; otherwise, circumcision wouldn't be a "sign" between God and Abraham, right?

Circumcision was a Mosaic "shadow law" and a physical sign of a new heart given by God to those who are born again into God's new covenant promise through faith in Gods' Word *see Deuteronomy 10:16; Deuteronomy 30:6; Jeremiah 4:4; Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; 1 Corinthians 7:19; Romans 2:25-28; Hebrews 8:10-12; John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 5:2-4.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Since the Sabbath was a sign between God and Israel (Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20) and since the old covenant has passed away, including even the Ten Commandments (Hebrews 8:6-13; Romans 7:1-4; Romans 7:7; 2 Corinthians 3:7), therefore we're not under the Sabbath today (cf. Colossians 2:16-17).

No not at all. In the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29) Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). God's 4th commandment is a memorial of creation as shown in the wording of the 4th commandment that says "Remember" in v8. Colossians 2:16 is in reference to the ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days that were linked to old covenant laws for remission of sins and sin offerings under the old covenant Priesthood. These are the shadows pointing to Christ and continued in him work as our great high Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22.). In the new covenant God's 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25.

Take Care.

 

[Kilk1]

Yahweh made the 7th day holy in Genesis 2.

Questions you should consider:

• How is it holy?

Because that was when God finished His work. He also would later use the seventh day as the Sabbath for Israel as a sign between God and them (Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20).

• How would Adam and Eve recognize it as holy?

It never says whether or not they were supposed to recognize it as holy, so it'd be best not to speculate. They were commanded to tend to the garden and not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but the text doesn't say they had to keep the seventh day holy.

• Did it ever stop being holy?

God Himself rested on the seventh day, so I don't know if it ended. After resting Himself on the seventh day, God later gave the Sabbath to Israel as a sign just like he gave circumcision to Abraham as a sign and the rainbow to Noah as a sign. Therefore, the Sabbath was for a specific audience. There is a Sabbath rest for us (apparently heaven), one we must be "diligent" to enter (Hebrews 4:9-11).

• Why is the 4th Commandment the only one where Yahweh says "Remember"?

Because it was a holy day they were supposed to observe. Another example would be the Passover. God told the Israelites to "remember" the day they were brought out of Egypt for Passover purposes (Exodus 13:3). Does this mean they were already observing the Passover before Exodus 13?

Questions for you to consider:

• Is the fact that circumcision was a "sign" for Abraham proof that circumcision wasn't for everyone? If so, how can the Sabbath be a universal law for everyone if it was a "sign" for Israel?
• How do we "enter" the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:9-11?
• What does Colossians 2:16-17 teach?

 

[guevaraj]

SUMMARY: God's rest is the "seventh day Sabbath" of creation.

Brother, you are correct in determining that God's "rest" in Hebrews 3 and 4 is the Sabbath! However, you have missed two announcements in Hebrews 3 and 4 about God's "rest". First, they did not enter His "rest" during the 40 years of keeping the seventh day of the week from morning to morning with Manna. Second, "Joshua had not succeeded in giving them" God's "rest" in the Promised Land, although they did enter God's "rest" in the Promised Land from evening to evening unlike before not having entered His "rest" from morning to morning for 40 years with Manna. God is saying that there is something wrong with the human tradition of God's Sabbath since Joshua that we have inherited from Judaism. Can you see the issue presented in this scholarly paper by Amanda McGuire in 2008 with the seventh day of the week from morning to morning and the Sabbath in the Promised Land from evening to evening. The controversy in Amanda's paper disappears when you realize that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is not the seventh day of the week as Judaism has assumed since Joshua.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Brother, you are correct in determining that God's "rest" in Hebrews 3 and 4 is the Sabbath! However, you have missed two announcements in Hebrews 3 and 4 about God's "rest". First, they did not enter His "rest" during the 40 years of keeping the seventh day of the week from morning to morning with Manna. Second, "Joshua had not succeeded in giving them" God's "rest" in the Promised Land, although they did enter God's "rest" in the Promised Land from evening to evening unlike before not having entered His "rest" from morning to morning for 40 years with Manna. God is saying that there is something wrong with the human tradition of God's Sabbath since Joshua that we have inherited from Judaism. Can you see the issue presented in this scholarly paper by Amanda McGuire in 2008 with the seventh day of the week from morning to morning and the Sabbath in the Promised Land from evening to evening. The controversy in Amanda's paper disappears when you realize that the Sabbath in the Promised Land is not the seventh day of the week as Judaism has assumed since Joshua.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I am sorry but I respectfully disagree. The "ANOTHER DAY (not place in Hebrews 4:7-8)" is in reference to the coming of MESSIAH JESUS and the preaching of the Gospel. God's people who did not enter GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) in the wilderness did not enter in because they did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Those who entered into GOD'S REST entered in "PRESENT TENSE" because they BELIEVED God's WORD; HEBREWS 4:3 [3], FOR WE WHICH HAVE BELIEVED DO ENTER INTO REST (present tense), as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into MY REST (the seventh day Sabbath): although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Take Care.

 

[Torah Keeper]

Because that was when God finished His work. He also would later use the seventh day as the Sabbath for Israel as a sign between God and them (Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20).

It never says whether or not they were supposed to recognize it as holy, so it'd be best not to speculate. They were commanded to tend to the garden and not eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but the text doesn't say they had to keep the seventh day holy.


God Himself rested on the seventh day, so I don't know if it ended. After resting Himself on the seventh day, God later gave the Sabbath to Israel as a sign just like he gave circumcision to Abraham as a sign and the rainbow to Noah as a sign. Therefore, the Sabbath was for a specific audience. There is a Sabbath rest for us (apparently heaven), one we must be "diligent" to enter (Hebrews 4:9-11).

Because it was a holy day they were supposed to observe. Another example would be the Passover. God told the Israelites to "remember" the day they were brought out of Egypt for Passover purposes (Exodus 13:3). Does this mean they were already observing the Passover before Exodus 13?

Questions for you to consider:

• Is the fact that circumcision was a "sign" for Abraham proof that circumcision wasn't for everyone? If so, how can the Sabbath be a universal law for everyone if it was a "sign" for Israel?
• How do we "enter" the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:9-11?
• What does Colossians 2:16-17 teach?

So you're saying nobody except God knew about the Sabbath until Moses? Oh! It was a holy day for thousands of years and nobody knew? Come on...

God told us to remember Passover as well. And I keep this memorial also. He said to keep Passover "forever". How long is that? And Paul even said regarding Passover "let us keep the feast".

So you think circumcision is only for Abraham's physical descendants but the rainbow is for everyone? How does that work?

Does not Paul also say we are Abraham's children? Hmm....

We enter the Sabbath rest by keeping the Sabbath holy. And we will enter a Sabbath in the future. There will be 1,000 years of peace on Earth.

Colossians 2 teaches new gentile converts not to let other gentiles judge them because they started keeping the Torah.

 

[Kilk1]

No not at all. In the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29) Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). God's 4th commandment is a memorial of creation as shown in the wording of the 4th commandment that says in v8 and 1. Colossians 2:16 is in reference to the ceremonial sabbaths in the Feast days that were linked to old covenant laws for remission of sins and sin offerings under the old covenant Priesthood. These are the shadows pointing to Christ and continued in him work as our great high Priest who ever lives to make intercession for us in the heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man (see Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22.). In the new covenant God's 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25.

Take Care.

What if God hallowed the Sabbath day in preparation to give to Israel? After all, didn't He do similarly on the fourth day? Genesis 1:14 says (GW), "Let there be lights in the sky to separate the day from the night. They will be signs and will mark religious festivals, days, and years" (emphasis mine). These religious festivals weren't already in existence, but God was working in preparation for such. In a similar way, God could have sanctified the seventh day in view of giving it to Israel. Evidence supporting this would be Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20. Putting it all together, Genesis says God sanctified the seventh day, but it never says He commanded everyone to do it. On the contrary, we don't read of people being told to keep it until Exodus, and there it's specifically called a "sign" between God and Israel. How can it be a distinguishing sign if it's for everyone?

As for the Sabbath being for man, it doesn't say it's for all mankind in Mark 2:27, just for "man." "Man" (Greek anthropos) doesn't always mean "Jews and Gentiles." For example, here's what Matthew 10:17-18 says (NKJV): "But beware of men [Greek, anthropos], for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles" (emphasis mine). Notice that "the Gentiles" are listed in addition to "men" (anthropos) and that the "men" (anthropos) are the ones with synagogues. The point is that God made the Sabbath for the benefit of man (specifically, the Jewish man) rather than God making man for the benefit of the Sabbath. How do we know it was specifically for the Jewish man? Regardless of when it was made, it was given as a "sign" specifically for Israel according to the passages referenced before: Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20.

 

[Kilk1]

So you're saying nobody except God knew about the Sabbath until Moses? Oh! It was a holy day for thousands of years and nobody knew? Come on...

God told us to remember Passover as well. And I keep this memorial also. He said to keep Passover "forever". How long is that? And Paul even said regarding Passover "let us keep the feast".

So you think circumcision is only for Abraham's physical descendants but the rainbow is for everyone? How does that work?

Does not Paul also say we are Abraham's children? Hmm....

We enter the Sabbath rest by keeping the Sabbath holy. And we will enter a Sabbath in the future. There will be 1,000 years of peace on Earth.

Colossians 2 teaches new gentile converts not to let other gentiles judge them because they started keeping the Torah.

I said we shouldn't speculate. When Nehemiah 9:1-14 gives an overview of history from creation to Moses, it doesn't mention the Sabbath being "made known" until the time of Moses (Nehemiah 9:14). I'm not going to claim that they already "knew" about the Sabbath before it was "made known" to them by the hand of Moses.

Paul said that "Christ" is our Passover, right? He's the Passover we're supposed to keep, not the Old Testament Passover which was a shadow.

As for the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4:9-11, isn't it referencing a promise (Hebrews 4:1), not a command? This rest isn't the Jewish Sabbath that was commanded; rather it's a spiritual Sabbath, namely, the rest that Christians are obtaining in Christ, one the disobedient can't enter (Hebrews 4:5) but that remains for the people of God (Hebrews 4:9).

As for circumcision, are you saying that physical circumcision is for Abraham's spiritual descendants, then?

 

[guevaraj]

God's people who did not enter GOD'S REST (SEVENTH DAY SABBATH) in the wilderness did not enter in because they did not BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD.

Brother, how did God prevent them from entering His "rest" if they were keeping the correct Sabbath near the Promised Land with Manna for 40 years?

That is why the Holy Spirit says, “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled, when they tested me in the wilderness. There your ancestors tested and tried my patience, even though they saw my miracles for forty years. So I was angry with them, and I said, ‘Their hearts always turn away from me. They refuse to do what I tell them.’ So in my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest.’” (Hebrews 3:7-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Brother, how did God prevent them from entering His "rest" if they were keeping the correct Sabbath near the Promised Land with Manna for 40 years?

Sin and unbelief. Read the scriptures already provided in post #138 and post # 139 linked. If we are in sin and unbelief we can keep the correct Sabbath day on the "seventh day" of the week as it is written in Exodus 20:8-11, but will not enter into God's Sabbath rest because of our unbelief and sin. This is what Hebrews 3 and Hebrews 4 is warning us against. This is why it is also written in Isaiah 57:20-21 [20], But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. [21], There is no peace, said my God, to the wicked." and again "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest." - Hebrews 4:3-5

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What if God hallowed the Sabbath day in preparation to give to Israel?

According to the scriptures and not reading into the scriptures, Jesus says that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3.

After all, didn't He do similarly on the fourth day? Genesis 1:14 says (GW), "Let there be lights in the sky to separate the day from the night. They will be signs and will mark religious festivals, days, and years" (emphasis mine). These religious festivals weren't already in existence, but God was working in preparation for such. In a similar way, God could have sanctified the seventh day in view of giving it to Israel. Evidence supporting this would be Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20. Putting it all together, Genesis says God sanctified the seventh day, but it never says He commanded everyone to do it. On the contrary, we don't read of people being told to keep it until Exodus, and there it's specifically called a "sign" between God and Israel. How can it be a distinguishing sign if it's for everyone?

I do not believe so. Genesis 1:14 was not a reference to the annual Feast days it simply says " God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. I think your trying to read the annual Feast days into Genesis 1:14 which is not there. The annual Feast days came after the fall of mankind under the Mosaic covenant and Gods' plan of salvation for those who choose to believe and follow what His Word says.

As for the Sabbath being for man, it doesn't say it's for all mankind in Mark 2:27, just for "man." "Man" (Greek anthropos) doesn't always mean "Jews and Gentiles." For example, here's what Matthew 10:17-18 says (NKJV): "But beware of men [Greek, anthropos], for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles" (emphasis mine). Notice that "the Gentiles" are listed in addition to "men" (anthropos) and that the "men" (anthropos) are the ones with synagogues.

It is context that determines scripture interpretation not word meaning outside of scripture context to which it is being applied to. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures Jesus says that the Sabbath which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3.

The point is that God made the Sabbath for the benefit of man (specifically, the Jewish man) rather than God making man for the benefit of the Sabbath. How do we know it was specifically for the Jewish man? Regardless of when it was made, it was given as a "sign" specifically for Israel according to the passages referenced before: Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20.

Actually as shown in the scriptures already, Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for human beings *Mark 2:27 and the Sabbath was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week according to Genesis 2:1-3. So once again no. There was no sin, no plan of salvation or shadow laws, no Moses, no Jew and no Israel when God made the Sabbath for human beings. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures in the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29). Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier through the scriptures, when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for human beings in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). You cannot get around what is written in the scriptures here.

Take Care.

 

[HIM]

Colossians 2 teaches new gentile converts not to let other gentiles judge them because they started keeping the Torah.

no it doesn’t

 

[guevaraj]

If we are in sin and unbelief we can keep the correct Sabbath but will not enter into God's Sabbath rest because of our unbelief and sin.

Brother, they did not enter His "rest" due to the "oath" for 40 years, regardless of their repentance of unbelief and sin. The passage does not say that they prevent themselves from entering God's "rest" during those 40 years, it says that God prevented them from entering under oath for 40 years, so that you know that it comes from Him and not from them that they were not allowed to enter for 40 years. What it does say is that when we enter this "rest", we "have rested from our labors, just as God did after creating the world." That synchronization with God having rested on the seventh day of creation is not possible while it is Sabbath for some and not for others around the world as is our tradition since Joshua.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Brother, they did not enter His "rest" due to the "oath" for 40 years, regardless of their repentance of unbelief and sin. The passage does not say that they prevent themselves from entering God's "rest" during those 40 years, it says that God prevented them from entering under oath for 40 years, so that you know that it comes from Him and not from them that they were not allowed to enter for 40 years. What it does say is that when we enter this "rest", we "have rested from our labors, just as God did after creating the world." That synchronization with God having rested on the seventh day of creation is not possible while it is Sabbath for some and not for others around the world as is our tradition since Joshua.

So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Repetition unresponsive to the posts you are quoting from and the scriptures that disagree with you as shown in post #138; post # 139 and post # 147 linked. Sorry I do not believe you.

Take Care.

 

[ralliann]

I'm not sure. At the very least, non-desendants of Abraham wouldn't be expected to be circumcised; otherwise, circumcision wouldn't be a "sign" between God and Abraham, right?

That is true. Abraham circumcised the servants born in his household as well. But Israel is the only seed that kept the eighth day circumcision, and it was given as a statute to them to eat the passover. No uncircumcised person could eat of it.

Heb 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Just speculation on the firstborn....They get double inheritance. There are two covenants of inheritance made with Abraham concerning his seed. Is it possible the firstborn inherit both that which is earthly, and that which inherits the eternal inheritance? Just a thought. It would be a double portion of inheritance. It would be only those which inherit the second would be revealed as the firstborn?
Not all Israel is Israel.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

 

[Kilk1]

According to the scriptures and not reading into the scriptures, Jesus says that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3.


I do not believe so. Genesis 1:14 was not a reference to the annual Feast days it simply says " God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. I think your trying to read the annual Feast days into Genesis 1:14 which is not there. The annual Feast days came after the fall of mankind under the Mosaic covenant and Gods' plan of salvation for those who choose to believe and follow what His Word says.

Just because something was made "for" someone doesn't necessarily mean it was being practiced then. If you disagree, could you explain what the term "signs" (Hebrew, ‘owth) and the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) mean in Genesis 1:14? Also, since God made the herbs for food (Genesis 1:29), does this fact therefore prove 1) that people were eating herbs on the third day, when the herbs were made (Genesis 1:11-13) or rather 2) that the herbs were made on the third day for man to eat, but they wouldn't actually be given to man till later?

What I believe is that God rested on the seventh day. However, the Sabbath wasn't given to man until after Israel left Egypt, and it was given/made known specifically to physical Israel (Exodus 16:29; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12). Because of this, the main issue doesn't seem to be when the Sabbath was made but rather, whether the "man" the Sabbath was made for is "all mankind" or "Jews." If it's all mankind, then the Sabbath was given for everyone. However, if it's specifically the Jews under the old covenant to Israel, then it doesn't apply to us today. We'll look at this question next.

It is context that determines scripture interpretation not word meaning outside of scripture context to which it is being applied to. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures Jesus says that the Sabbath which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3.

Actually as shown in the scriptures already, Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for human beings *Mark 2:27 and the Sabbath was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week according to Genesis 2:1-3. So once again no. There was no sin, no plan of salvation or shadow laws, no Moses, no Jew and no Israel when God made the Sabbath for human beings. As posted earlier, according to the scriptures in the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29). Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier through the scriptures, when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for human beings in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). You cannot get around what is written in the scriptures here.

Take Care.

So again, just because something was made "for" someone doesn't mean the ones it's made for received it immediately. Otherwise, man received the food that was made for them before man even existed! So the real issue in Mark 2:27 is who's being referenced by "man" (Greek, anthropos). Let's consider:

If someone asked me whether angels need to be circumcised and I replied, "Circumcision was made for humans, not for angels," would that be a true statement? I assume you'd agree. However, would it be accurate for someone to later take my quote and say, "Kilk1 believes circumcision is for Gentiles! Proof? He said, 'Circumcision was made for humans,' not just 'Jews,' so that settles what he believes!" This would obviously be taking me out of context if elsewhere, I've said that circumcision is specifically for Abraham and his descendants, right? After all, the context of my statement would be about humans vs. angels, not humans vs. Jews in particular. Other statements of mine limits the scope of "humans" here, so you'd have to look to other statements of mine to know what I believe on the scope.

In the same way, if someone asked Jesus why His disciples picked grain on the Sabbath (Mark 2:23-24) and He replied, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27, NKJV; emphasis mine), would we agree with Jesus? Obviously! However, would it be accurate for someone to later take Jesus' quote and say, "Jesus believes the Sabbath is for Gentiles! Proof? He said, 'The Sabbath was made for man,' not just 'Jews,' so that settles what He believes!" This would obviously be taking Jesus out of context if elsewhere, God said that the Sabbath is specifically for Israel, right? (And He did, even calling the Sabbath a "sign" between Him and Israel, to show He set them apart [Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20].) After all, the context of Jesus' statement is about the Sabbath being made for man vs. man being made for the Sabbath, not whether it's for man vs. Jews in particular. Other statements of God limits the scope of "man" here, so you'd have to look to other statements of God to know what He believes on the scope (such as Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20).

If you still disagree, insisting that "man" proves the scope is "all of mankind" regardless if other passages limit the scope, let's test your logic. And for clarification, by "testing your logic," I mean it in a positive way. I sincerely want to practice the truth and even took Saturday off when I first started hearing the arguments favoring the keeping of the Sabbath. However, upon further inspection, I'm not completely sure the arguments hold for Sabbath-keeping today. I mean "testing" in the sense of "iron sharpening iron" (Proverbs 27:17). Other relevant passages would be 1 Thessalonians 5:21 and 1 John 4:1. And since Acts of the Apostles 17:11 shows the value of testing positions through the Scriptures, let's do that with your position that "man" proves the scope is "all mankind" regardless of whether other passages specify physical Israel.

In John 7:22-23, Jesus referenced how the Jews would "circumcise a man [Greek, anthropos] on the Sabbath" (NKJV, emphasis mine). Since Jesus didn't say they'd circumcise a "Jew," is Jesus saying they circumcised both Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath? If not, what passage(s) would you use to prove they only circumcised Jews?

In Hebrews 5:1-3, we're told that every high priest is taken from among "men" (Greek, anthropos) and appointed for "men" (Greek, anthropos) to offer sacrifices for sins, including his own sin. Since it didn't say "Jews" but "men" (Greek, anthropos), does this passage prove that every high priest was taken from among "all mankind" and offered sacrifices for "all mankind"? If you answer "No," please explain why. Any verse(s) would be appreciated.

Hebrews 7:28 says that "the law appoints men [Greek, anthropos] as high priests who have weakness," (WEB, emphasis mine). Since it doesn't say "Jews" but "men" (Greek, anthropos), does this verse prove that Jews and Gentiles are appointed as high priests in the law? If not, what passage(s) could you use to prove that in this context, the term is more specific than "all mankind"?

As for your (correct) point that God's Israel today "are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word," does God's Israel today follow the old covenant or the new?

Thanks,
Kilk

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Just because something was made "for" someone doesn't necessarily mean it was being practiced then.

It does not mean that they did not practice it either. *Genesis 26:5. Jesus says that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, and was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. There was only Adam and Eve created on the "sixth day" of the creation week made in the image of God *Genesis 1:26-31.

If you disagree, could you explain what the term "signs" (Hebrew, ‘owth) and the term "seasons" (Hebrew, mo‘ed) mean in Genesis 1:14? Also, since God made the herbs for food (Genesis 1:29), does this fact therefore prove 1) that people were eating herbs on the third day, when the herbs were made (Genesis 1:11-13) or rather 2) that the herbs were made on the third day for man to eat, but they wouldn't actually be given to man till later?

As posted earlier, Genesis 1:14 was not a reference to the annual Feast days it simply says " God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years. I think your trying to read the annual Feast days into Genesis 1:14 which is not there. The annual Feast days came after the fall of mankind under the Mosaic covenant and Gods' plan of salvation for those who choose to believe and follow what His Word says.
According to the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, Unabridged the Hebrew word used for "signs" is אוֺת (owth H226) and for Genesis 1:14 it says signs, tokens of changes of weather & times Gen 1:14 (P; of heavenly luminaries) הַשָּׁמַיִם אוֺתוֺת Jer 10:2 (changes of the heavens as omens to frighten the nations) compare Psa 65:9.

What I believe is that God rested on the seventh day. However, the Sabbath wasn't given to man until after Israel left Egypt, and it was given/made known specifically to physical Israel (Exodus 16:29; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12). Because of this, the main issue doesn't seem to be when the Sabbath was made but rather, whether the "man" the Sabbath was made for is "all mankind" or "Jews." If it's all mankind, then the Sabbath was given for everyone. However, if it's specifically the Jews under the old covenant to Israel, then it doesn't apply to us today. We'll look at this question next.

Your belief here is simply speculation unsupported by the scriptures. As posted earlier the scriptures says in the very words of Jesus, that the Sabbath, which was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3, and was made for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) *Mark 2:27 and that he is the Lord (creator) of it *Mark 2:28; John 1:1-4; 14; Colossians 1:16. There was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned, therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws" when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. There was only Adam and Eve created on the "sixth day" of the creation week made in the image of God *Genesis 1:26-31. If God made the Sabbath for mankind why would you think he is not going to tell him about it? - Genesis 26:5.

So again, just because something was made "for" someone doesn't mean the ones it's made for received it immediately. Otherwise, man received the food that was made for them before man even existed! So the real issue in Mark 2:27 is who's being referenced by "man" (Greek, anthropos). Let's consider: If someone asked me whether angels need to be circumcised and I replied, "Circumcision was made for humans, not for angels," would that be a true statement? I assume you'd agree. However, would it be accurate for someone to later take my quote and say, "Kilk1 believes circumcision is for Gentiles! Proof? He said, 'Circumcision was made for humans,' not just 'Jews,' so that settles what he believes!" This would obviously be taking me out of context if elsewhere, I've said that circumcision is specifically for Abraham and his descendants, right? After all, the context of my statement would be about humans vs. angels, not humans vs. Jews in particular. Other statements of mine limits the scope of "humans" here, so you'd have to look to other statements of mine to know what I believe on the scope.

Jesus says (not me), in Mark 2:27 The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath. This Sabbath was made on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3 and mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings) were made on the "sixth day" of the creation week *Genesis 1:26-31. There was only Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for all mankind. The above is God's Word not mine. It is not very difficult to understand.

God knew that people would forget His Sabbath which is why it was given again at Mt Sinai, where Gods' 4th commandment of the 10 commandments that gives us a knowledge of what sin is when broken *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 starts off "Remember" the Sabbath day to keep it holy. *Exodus 20:8. God knew we would forget it. Today the Christian world follows after man-made teachings and traditions that has led many away from God and His Word.

There is not a single scripture in all of Gods' Word that says God's 4th commandment is now abolished and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a holy day of rest. This is a man-made teaching and tradition that has led many to break God's 4th commandment. Jesus says in Matthew 15:3-9 that if we knowingly follow man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God we are not worshiping God.

Jesus says the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers, will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. According to the scriptures, God's people are in every Church and he is calling his people out from following man-made teachings and traditions to return to the pure Word of God *see John 10:16; Revelation 18:1-5; John 4:23-24. "Fear God" [therefore and not man], and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. *Revelation 14:7. Babylon has fallen *Revelation 14:8-12. God's sheep will hear His voice (the Word) and follow him. Those who do not hear will not follow because they are not His sheep according to John 10:27-28.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

In the same way, if someone asked Jesus why His disciples picked grain on the Sabbath (Mark 2:23-24) and He replied, "The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27, NKJV; emphasis mine), would we agree with Jesus? Obviously! However, would it be accurate for someone to later take Jesus' quote and say, "Jesus believes the Sabbath is for Gentiles! Proof?

The Sabbath was made for God's people, not the wicked and the unbelieving just the same as God's Word is for God's people, not the wicked and the unbelieving because it is written "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him." *John 3:31 and again "the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, said my God, to the wicked *Isaiah 57:21-22 see also, Ezekiel 18:20; Daniel 12:10;

He said, 'The Sabbath was made for man,' not just 'Jews,' so that settles what He believes!" This would obviously be taking Jesus out of context if elsewhere, God said that the Sabbath is specifically for Israel, right? (And He did, even calling the Sabbath a "sign" between Him and Israel, to show He set them apart [Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20].) After all, the context of Jesus' statement is about the Sabbath being made for man vs. man being made for the Sabbath, not whether it's for man vs. Jews in particular. Other statements of God limits the scope of "man" here, so you'd have to look to other statements of God to know what He believes on the scope (such as Exodus 31:13; Exodus 31:16-17; Ezekiel 20:12; Ezekiel 20:19-20).

Not at all. According to the scriptures in the new covenant God's Word is for all those who choose to believe and follow what God's Word says *John 3:16-21; John 3:31; Ephesians 2:8-9. In the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29) Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3). In the new covenant God's 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. If we are not a part of Gods' Israel in the new covenant we have no part in God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). According to the scriptures, gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27

If you still disagree, insisting that "man" proves the scope is "all of mankind" regardless if other passages limit the scope, let's test your logic. And for clarification, by "testing your logic," I mean it in a positive way. I sincerely want to practice the truth and even took Saturday off when I first started hearing the arguments favoring the keeping of the Sabbath. However, upon further inspection, I'm not completely sure the arguments hold for Sabbath-keeping today. I mean "testing" in the sense of "iron sharpening iron" (Proverbs 27:17). Other relevant passages would be 1 Thessalonians 5:21 and 1 John 4:1. And since Acts of the Apostles 17:11 shows the value of testing positions through the Scriptures, let's do that with your position that "man" proves the scope is "all mankind" regardless of whether other passages specify physical Israel.

Not really. It is context that your disregarding here. Jesus in Mark 2:27 saying that "the Sabbath was made for man" connects directly to "made" or the making of "the Sabbath day" that the scriptures define as "the seventh day" of the creation week which is linked directly to creation and Genesis 2:1-3 where the Sabbath was made for mankind ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings). There was only Adam and Eve when God made the Sabbath for ἄνθρωπος (ánthrōpos G444 human beings). As posted earlier there was no Moses, no Jews, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation for mankind because mankind never sinned when God made the Sabbath for all mankind on the "seventh day" of the creation week *Genesis 2:1-3. This is what Mark 2:27 links to "the making and the creation of the Sabbath" for all mankind which Jesus is the Lord over (creator).

In John 7:22-23, Jesus referenced how the Jews would "circumcise a man [Greek, anthropos] on the Sabbath" (NKJV, emphasis mine). Since Jesus didn't say they'd circumcise a "Jew," is Jesus saying they circumcised both Jews and Gentiles on the Sabbath? If not, what passage(s) would you use to prove they only circumcised Jews?

Once again, according to the scriptures Gods Word is for believers not unbelievers. The Sabbath and God's Word was made for God's people who are now in the new covenant all those who believe and follow what Gods 'Word says. God's Word is not for the wicked and the unbelieving because as posted earlier, it is written "He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him." *John 3:31 and again "the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, said my God, to the wicked *Isaiah 57:21 see also, Ezekiel 18:20; Daniel 12:10;

According to the scriptures in the new covenant God's Word is for all those who choose to believe and follow what God's Word says *John 3:16-21; John 3:31; Ephesians 2:8-9. In the new covenant God's Israel are no longer all those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are born of the Spirit through faith in Gods' promises (see Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29).

Therefore Gods' Israel today are simply all those who believe and follow Gods' Word. As shown earlier when Jesus says that the Sabbath was made for all mankind in Mark 2:27 there was no Jews, no Moses, no Israel, no sin and no plan of salvation given because there was no sin therefore no Mosaic "shadow laws", only Adam and Eve who were created on the sixth day of the creation week (see Genesis 1:26-31 and Genesis 2:1-3).

In the new covenant God's 10 commandments have the same role they always had and that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) see Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172 and to lead us to Christ that we might be forgiven through faith *Galatians 3:22-25. If we are not a part of Gods' Israel in the new covenant we have no part in God's new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12). According to the scriptures, gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27. God's Word therefore is only for believers not for the unbelieving wicked who do not believe and follow what God's Word says.

Take Care.