Good tidings of great joy, which shall be to SOME people?

[fhansen]

It sounds like grace came with strings attached. Is that really grace?

According to the gospel one string is faith. If salvation is universal then why require anyone to even believe?

From the larger perspective God allowed His creation to fall with the overall plan of ultimately producing something even greater than He began with-not merely to restore justice and innocence lost. And He could have the plan, as His final purpose, to bring all things back into subjugation to Him-but that will still entail a string: that we come willingly. That human desire for Him and the full true goodness that He offers, that He is, marks the height of justice/righteousness for man; it means an ordered creation again.

We can speculate that this will be the ultimate outcome for all, as Origen speculated while acknowledging that it may or may not be the case, but we need to also keep in mind that sin/evil wouldn't exist at all unless, due to free will, evil is an option for man-and either way we know that God won't allow evil to coexist forever side by side with good. At some point evil will be totally eradicated by His love and our own embracing of that love, or He'll allow those who continue to favor evil to exist separately in the hell they prefer instead.

 

[Hmm]

It sounds like grace came with strings attached. Is that really grace?

I agree. God gives in a way that we simply don't understand - it's beyond human experience because it's giving with no strings attached and no deserving behaviour. Very much like a human father treats his own children. God's grace is so beyond our experience as adults that it's very hard to understand. Children understand it though.

 

[Hmm]

It's not hard to accept but sticking to the narrow path when you meet with suffering, problems or temptations might be too much for some.

So that's punished with eternal torment? By Jesus?

 

[Strong in Him]

So that's punished with eternal torment? By Jesus?

I didn't say that.
I believe a) that only God knows people's motives for not being able to respond to the Gospel and b) that he is merciful and will do what is right.

For example, somebody could hear the Gospel and even go to church a few times. But they might not be able to accept it, because they hear that God is a father and God is love - and the only experience they may have of a father is someone who abuses/neglects them, gets drunk, is absent or is very strict and demanding. So that experience may prevent them from being able to respond to a God of love; they haven't experienced love.
If someone had an awful background like that, heard the Gospel, did not believe/accept it and then died, would they be without God for eternity? I don't know, but my personal belief is, no, God would be merciful. They experienced hell on earth, would God really give them more of the same for eternity?
That, to me, is completely different to someone who fully knows, believes and accepts what the Gospel says, what Jesus taught, that he laid down his life for them - and says, "no; not interested."

I went to church from an early age, and "God loves you" was one of the first things I heard. I didn't have a bad home life at all; far from it - yet I was completely unable to believe that God loved me because I wasn't very academic and was not achieving great things. I didn't love myself, so why would God?
If I had died, would God have said that he never knew me? I don't know; I just thank him that that never happened and that God persevered with me until I did experience and receive his love.

 

[Gundy22]

Four Cappadocians?

I know of Basil, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa...

who else Public Hermit?

 

[Gundy22]

Three Cappadocians were Basil, his brother Gregory - and his other brother Gregory.

One Greg a blood brother - one a spiritual brother.

 

[renniks]

How can the advent of Christ be good news for ALL people unless it truly is for ALL people

It's definitely for all. Not all accept it however.

 

[Hmm]

I didn't say that.
I believe a) that only God knows people's motives for not being able to respond to the Gospel and b) that he is merciful and will do what is right.

For example, somebody could hear the Gospel and even go to church a few times. But they might not be able to accept it, because they hear that God is a father and God is love - and the only experience they may have of a father is someone who abuses/neglects them, gets drunk, is absent or is very strict and demanding. So that experience may prevent them from being able to respond to a God of love; they haven't experienced love.
If someone had an awful background like that, heard the Gospel, did not believe/accept it and then died, would they be without God for eternity? I don't know, but my personal belief is, no, God would be merciful. They experienced hell on earth, would God really give them more of the same for eternity?
That, to me, is completely different to someone who fully knows, believes and accepts what the Gospel says, what Jesus taught, that he laid down his life for them - and says, "no; not interested."

I went to church from an early age, and "God loves you" was one of the first things I heard. I didn't have a bad home life at all; far from it - yet I was completely unable to believe that God loved me because I wasn't very academic and was not achieving great things. I didn't love myself, so why would God?
If I had died, would God have said that he never knew me? I don't know; I just thank him that that never happened and that God persevered with me until I did experience and receive his love.

I agree and I relate to much of what you say, although for different reasons, but don't these experiences make you want to rule out Jesus as an eternal tormenter of anyone full stop?

 

[Saint Steven]

Every time someone comes along and states that God is our loving Father, there is no Hell, everyone is saved, etc, the gatekeepers come along to squash it with fear and accusations.

Did you say gatekeepers?

Matthew 16:18 KJV
And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Saint Steven]

It's definitely for all. Not all accept it however.

SOME knees will bow, SOME tongues will confess... ???
(in heaven and on earth and under the earth - in the realm of the dead)

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why should he be deceived?

The serpent initiated the whole transaction.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I think we tend to misunderstand Adam's intentions. He and Eve were deceived by the serpent. They had made no willful plans to disobey God that I am aware of.

 

[Saint Steven]

Because they’re still looking horizontally, as Adam did, instead of up! We change, the world changes, for the better, when we begin looking up. We have to begin to be disappointed by the world though, jaded by its darkness and sin, at the same time. Unless we really believe that there’s something better, nothing changes.

And consider that there's a proclivity in fallen human nature to oppose and reject God anyway. It's based on pride. The evil that we witness and participate in to one degree or another in this world wouldn't even exist to begin with unless for that opposition.

Still, what you call the "bad news" seems more appealing to them than the good news.

 

[Saint Steven]

No.
The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus, Romans 6:23; gifts need to be received.
If someone said they had bought you a car, it was at the garage and you needed to pick it up, but you didn't bother/didn't like the make/didn't want to make the trip to the garage, how would that gift of a car benefit you, or be yours?

That car is still mine, so keep your mitts off of it. - lol

 

[fhansen]

The serpent initiated the whole transaction.

Saint Steven said: ↑
I think we tend to misunderstand Adam's intentions. He and Eve were deceived by the serpent. They had made no willful plans to disobey God that I am aware of.

It doesn't really mater who deceived or tempted them. Why did they listen to the wrong voice, to any voice that would deny or question God's authority. We're all emhjoined to hear and heed the right voice.
Even external voice had to put the idea in their heads-they jumped. They weren't total innocents in the matter which is why they were held accountable.

 

[fhansen]

Still, what you call the "bad news" seems more appealing to them than the good news.

Yes?
Even God won't force them to accept the good news. No one can, regardless of the message, because it will always mean placing God above oneself, which our pride tends to react against.

 

[public hermit]

Four Cappadocians?

I know of Basil, Gregory of Nazianzus, Gregory of Nyssa...

who else Public Hermit?

Macrina, she taught her brothers, Basil and Nyssan. She is named after her grandmother, another giant of the faith. I started saying that after reading Jaroslav Pelikan's Gifford Lectures on Natural Theology, which was on them. He makes the argument the brothers owe their training in part to her influence, which I found convincing.

The book is Christianity and Classical Culture: The Metamorphosis of Natural Theology in the Christian Encounter with Hellenism

Despite the title, it's all about the Cappadocians. Great read.

 

[Gundy22]

I learned something, Public Hermit!!

Macrina the Younger – The Fourth Cappadocian

 

[Fervent]

John 3:17 NIV
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Why stop there? Keep reading to John 3:18 at least:
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree and I relate to much of what you say, although for different reasons, but don't these experiences make you want to rule out Jesus as an eternal tormenter of anyone full stop?

Jesus doesn't eternally torment anyone.

 

[Saint Steven]

According to the gospel one string is faith. If salvation is universal then why require anyone to even believe?

I think faith is the consummation of the salvation that everyone already has.

Titus 2:11 ESV
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,