Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[DavidPT]

Not so. This is your own opinions. This is bias unobjective contradictory Premil logic. It does not align with Scripture. Jesus is reigning on His throne now at the right hand of majesty on high.

Please consult with the Op (which you are careful to duck around) that refutes your position.

Since you quoted my entire post rather than specific parts, I can only assume that you disagreed with every single thing I said. Even you appear to maybe think this---Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne---is pertaining to the thousand years since you seem to be applying that to someone upon death and before the bodily resurrection, which would be meaning the thousand years to you, and then in the process, this leaves the ones who are still alive and remain unto the 2nd coming, as being no one Jesus is also meaning by overcomers in that verse. Thus why I indicated your theology is bizarre.

Overcoming is a process. It is not something that can be determined yet, simply because one had repented and accepted Christ. That's the beginning of the process, not the end of it. Anyone observing Jesus' life in the gospels should be able to see that overcoming is a process and that one hasn't overcome until it's over, meaning once there is nothing left to overcome. Obviously, once one dies there is nothing else to overcome at that point. But until one dies there are numerous things to overcome in the meantime. The same would be true of anyone still alive unto the 2nd coming. There is nothing more to overcome at that point, thus they have fully overcome. But until then, there are numerous things to overcome in the meantime.

This then means that Revelation 3:21 is applicable to a time when both the dead in Christ and those that are alive and remain until His coming, can fulfill that verse simultaneously. The only time that can be is once the 2nd coming happens. That way everyone is included, and not just some.

 

[claninja]

As to how you answered question 2, why don't you think satan was also masquerading as an angel of light before Christ's resurrection? Why don't you think satan was also prowling and looking to devour before Christ's resurrection? Actually, I don't even understand SG's point in regards to those particular questions? I would think satan was already prowling and looking to devour from the very beginning, meaning when he was in the garden of Eden. And that he hasn't stopped doing this since, and won't stop doing it until he is in the pit a thousand years, and that once he is in the LOF he will stop doing it for ever at that point. In my view there are only two occasions when satan will have zero affect on anyone. When he is in the pit and when he is in the LOF. Amils claim he is currently in the pit, yet, the world is not getting better, it keeps getting worse.

I believe the little season is specifically related to the persecution of the church by the unbelieving jews, whom Christ called sons of Satan in John 8:44.

For example, when the unbelieving Jews, who killed Christ and persecuted the church, were hindering Paul from bringing the gospel to the nations, Paul refers to them as “Satan” hindering us (1 Thessalonians 2:15-18).

These are very same ones to whom Christ stated all the righteous bloodshed would be avenged upon in Matthew 23:35-36.

these are the very same that persecuted the Thessalonians and whom Paul said would be judged at Christ’s coming in order that the Thessalonians might find relief in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

 

[claninja]

I have no difficulty acknowledging that. I have done that previously in a couple of posts. I have told you: what is a spiritual standing of rulership today in Christ will become an actual literal spiritual state when we die.

I appreciate you correcting that. You have a lot of great evidence in your post for Christ reigning presently and for believers being raised spiritually to be a royal priesthood presently. The only issue is your position of “souls” of dead believers going to heaven and reigning with Christ prior to the resurrection. This is where your evidence is lacking in the scriptural support department.

this is the crux of the issue. If you can provide scriptural evidence that souls go to heaven to reign with Christ prior to the resurrection, then you can definitely surmount the premil position.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I appreciate you correcting that. You have a lot of great evidence in your post for Christ reigning presently and for believers being raised spiritually to be a royal priesthood presently. The only issue is your position of “souls” of dead believers going to heaven and reigning with Christ prior to the resurrection. This is where your evidence is lacking in the scriptural support department.

this is the crux of the issue. If you can provide scriptural evidence that souls go to heaven to reign with Christ prior to the resurrection, then you can definitely surmount the premil position.

I have. Check the Op.

 

[DavidPT]

I have. Check the Op.

Even most Premils believe the souls of the saved go to heaven upon death while awaiting the bodily resurrection. Why don't Premils also believe that to be meaning the thousand year reign? Therefore, I don't see where your OP or anything you submitted in this thread proves anything one way or the other in regards to this. To me it just makes zero sense that Christ had to overcome first in order to be seated at the right hand of power, and that Amils already have one seated with Christ before they even overcome first. The way I reason this myself, we can overcome because He overcame, and not, we overcome because He overcame, as in we don't need to make any effort on our end to overcome, we just automatically overcome because He did. It then makes any reasonable person wonder, what is with all of this--if you overcome, you are rewarded with this, you are rewarded with that, etc, if overcoming is automatic and requires no effort on our part whatsoever? Why involve an 'if' with anything pertaining to overcoming? Any reasonable person would see those ifs as something conditional. If you wash my truck I will pay you 25 bucks. What happens if they don't wash my truck, I'm still going to reward them with 25 bucks, regardless?

 

[DavidPT]

I believe the little season is specifically related to the persecution of the church by the unbelieving jews, whom Christ called sons of Satan in John 8:44.

For example, when the unbelieving Jews, who killed Christ and persecuted the church, were hindering Paul from bringing the gospel to the nations, Paul refers to them as “Satan” hindering us (1 Thessalonians 2:15-18).

These are very same ones to whom Christ stated all the righteous bloodshed would be avenged upon in Matthew 23:35-36.

these are the very same that persecuted the Thessalonians and whom Paul said would be judged at Christ’s coming in order that the Thessalonians might find relief in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9

But does your interpretation agree with the written text?

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Can your interpretation explain why the nations had to be deceived in order to carry this out? Can your interpretation explain the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? Can your interpretation explain fire that comes down from God out of heaven, and devours them?

You do realize, right, that it's not the ones being attacked that are destroyed by God, it is the attackers that are? In 70 AD, since I suspect you think this ultimately involves 70 AD somehow, it was the unbelieving Jews being attacked, and them being destroyed, not the attackers instead, the Romans in this case. Why would these major differences not be relevant?

It's the same way a lot of ppl misinterpret the first cpl of verses in Zechariah 14 by applying verse 2 to that of what happened in 70 AD. What happened in 70 AD does not match what is recorded in Zechariah 14. That chapter has God defending the ones being attacked. That chapter has God going forth and fighting against the attackers. In 70 AD the attackers were the Romans. God didn't go to battle with them nor did He defend the unbelieving Jews that were killed at the time. In Revelation 20:7-9 there is only a single thing that matches 70 AD, that being the city being surrounded. Nothing else matches, though. The more I think about it though, not even that matches. Revelation 20:7-9 records that it is the camp of saints being surrounded. In 70 AD it was the unbelieving Jews being surrounded, thus they don't fit the camp of the saints.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Even most Premils believe the souls of the saved go to heaven upon death while awaiting the bodily resurrection. Why don't Premils also believe that to be meaning the thousand year reign? Therefore, I don't see where your OP or anything you submitted in this thread proves anything one way or the other in regards to this. To me it just makes zero sense that Christ had to overcome first in order to be seated at the right hand of power, and that Amils already have one seated with Christ before they even overcome first. The way I reason this myself, we can overcome because He overcame, and not, we overcome because He overcame, as in we don't need to make any effort on our end to overcome, we just automatically overcome because He did. It then makes any reasonable person wonder, what is with all of this--if you overcome, you are rewarded with this, you are rewarded with that, etc, if overcoming is automatic and requires no effort on our part whatsoever? Why involve an 'if' with anything pertaining to overcoming? Any reasonable person would see those ifs as something conditional. If you wash my truck I will pay you 25 bucks. What happens if they don't wash my truck, I'm still going to reward them with 25 bucks, regardless?

In your rationale.

 

[jeffweedaman]

To me it just makes zero sense that Christ had to overcome first in order to be seated at the right hand of power, and that Amils already have one seated with Christ before they even overcome first.

What believer will overcome perfectly in his own strength? None will right...

Jesus never lost sight of his Father ever, as the Father was always with him.
For a brief period the Father turned his back on his Son when he took on the sins of the whole world.
Yet he rose victoriously.

1Jn 5
4 For whoever has been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

[DavidPT]

What believer will overcome perfectly in his own strength? None will right...

Jesus never lost sight of his Father ever, as the Father was always with him.
For a brief period the Father turned his back on his Son when he took on the sins of the whole world.
Yet he rose victoriously.

1Jn 5
4 For whoever has been born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world: our faith.

5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

I thought for certain you were of the NOSAS camp? Maybe I was wrong to think that. You do realize, right, that that 'believes' recorded in verse 5 that it involves more than just simply believing that Jesus is the Son of God?

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

As one can see per this passage, believing by itself is not helping the devils whatsoever. I'm certain these same devils also believe Jesus is the Son of God. How is that alone helping them?

 

[jeffweedaman]

I thought for certain you were of the NOSAS camp? Maybe I was wrong to think that. You do realize, right, that that 'believes' recorded in verse 5 that it involves more than just simply believing that Jesus is the Son of God?

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

As one can see per this passage, believing by itself is not helping the devils whatsoever. I'm certain these same devils also believe Jesus is the Son of God. How is that alone helping them?

devils have no faith or repentance David..., unlike you and me. Its all about ongoing faith.., and repentance in our time of need.

 

[Timtofly]

What about Matthew 24:35? Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

If God's Word was a creation, do you still have a point?

 

[Timtofly]

I won’t argue the point, I’m only putting out there for people to consider. The Bible is an esoteric book, the true meaning is hidden and is never plainly written anywhere ... hence over 33,000 “Christian” denominations and continual arguments over pretrib, post trib, water baptism, speaking in tongues and everything else people argue over.

In other words if the Bible portrays the resurrection as the resurrection of dead earthly bodies then it isn’t. If Satan is portrayed as an angelic being, then he isn’t. What gets me is how do people read the Bible for years and never understand this.

Satan was created as an angel. That is his natural created status. Seems he would opt for any form, other than the one God created him as.

 

[Bob_1000]

Satan was created as an angel. That is his natural created status. Seems he would opt for any form, other than the one God created him as.

Joh 8:44 (KJV) Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Which version of Satan fits John 8:44? Did an angelic being have sex with all of the Pharisees mothers or was human DNA responsible for bringing the Pharisees into this world. Did an angelic being possess Cain or did the lust of the flesh cause Cain to kill Able. Did an angelic being invent lying or does lying come naturally through our DNA?

There's a reason why the King James bible has the serpent speaking exactly 46 words to Eve in the garden. There's a reason the phrase "the devil" is found exactly 46 times in the King James bible. There's a reason why God caused the temple to be built in 46 years and there's a reason the bible told us it took 46 years to build the earthly temple that foreshadowed the 46 chromosome REAL temple of God. I'm not saying these occurrences are absolute proof of anything but what those things do is make you question WHY did they do that.

Like I said before, the bible is an esoteric book designed to reveal the truth only to those who seek the truth and the rest will be blinded.

 

[grafted branch]

If God's Word was a creation, do you still have a point?

The point is this, currently thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

Since His words continue on forever, this current spiritual reality will also be present in the NHNE.

In post #1428 you said “Nothing we currently understand will continue after heaven and earth pass away.”

Revelation 21:23 says the Lamb is the light thereof. Since we currently have both spiritual light and physical light, would you then say neither of these will be present in the NHNE?

 

[DavidPT]

What believer will overcome perfectly in his own strength? None will right...

I'm not suggesting any would. I'm suggesting it involves both parties working together, as in the believer and Christ working together.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I'm not suggesting any would. I'm suggesting it involves both parties working together, as in the believer and Christ working together.

Arminianism is a self-help gospel. That is why it doesn't work. Man is dead, deaf and blind. He cannot save himself. That is why we depend upon the Lord to rescue us from ourselves.

 

[Timtofly]

Actually, some Amils believe he has already been loosed. I lean towards believing that myself. Of course, there isn't any particular event I can point to in order to prove that's the case, but we can all see that things have been getting worse from a spiritual and moral standpoint.

You all agree then, your indefinite millennium is over? Satan is not loosed until after the 1000 year reign has ended. That is Scripture, not opinion.

 

[DavidPT]

You all agree then, your indefinite millennium is over? Satan is not loosed until after the 1000 year reign has ended. That is Scripture, not opinion.

'This would mean no one is any longer reigning with Christ, not even the ones already allegedly reigning in heaven. It seems silly if the 1000 years are expired on earth, that they would still be underway in heaven. If the thousand year reign involves both earth and heaven, which I don't believe to be the case to begin with, but assuming they were, they would obviously be in sync not out of sync. IOW, when the thousand years begin on earth it also begins in heaven. When the thousand years end on earth it also ends in heaven. Would anyone argue, assuming this scenario, that the thousand year reigning begins in heaven before it even begins on the earth? Why would anyone then argue that when the thousand years end on earth they don't end in heaven as well? This would also mean when it's satan's little season back on earth it is also satan's little season in heaven, which of course makes zero sense, as if satan's little season has any relevance to anyone dwelling in heaven. satan's little season involves surrounding someone on earth, not someone in heaven instead.

 

[DavidPT]

Arminianism is a self-help gospel. That is why it doesn't work. Man is dead, deaf and blind. He cannot save himself. That is why we depend upon the Lord to rescue us from ourselves.

It takes at least two in order for anybody to be saved. The person themselves and Christ. Christ can't save anyone not wishing to be saved nor can anyone save themselves without Christ.

 

[grafted branch]

It takes at least two in order for anybody to be saved. The person themselves and Christ. Christ can't save anyone not wishing to be saved nor can anyone save themselves without Christ.

What about the people who were in Joshua’s house, Joshua chose for them according to Joshua 24:15?