Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

[claninja]

Do you believe a literal future climactic coming of Christ and a literal resurrection of all mankind occurs as a singular event on the last day?

Correct

 

[sovereigngrace]

Correct

You are prepared to answer this simple question again then?

 

[claninja]

You are prepared to answer this simple question again then?

only if you follow through on your claim in post 1381 first, and correct the error in the OP about the verb tense in revelation 3:21

 

[sovereigngrace]

only if you follow through on your claim in post 1381 first, and correct the error in the OP about the verb tense in revelation 3:21

Absolutely not! There is no error there. It is spot on. Where i put the tenses is correct.

 

[claninja]

Absolutely not! There is no error there. It is spot on. Where i put the tenses is correct.

incorrect. notice below, in your OP, you have “will grant to sit” labeled as one aorist active infinitive verb. This is not correct. It’s 2 verbs:

1.) will grant = future indicative active

2.) to sit= aorist infinitive active.

Until you correct this, the OP is misleading in regards to the verb tense of that passage.

Jesus confirms in Revelation 3:21: “To him that overcometh (present active particle) will I grant to sit (aorist, active infinitive), with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am (aorist active indicative) set down with my Father in his throne.”

 

[sovereigngrace]

incorrect. notice below, in your OP, you have “will grant to sit” labeled as one aorist active infinitive verb. This is not correct. It’s 2 verbs:

1.) will grant = future indicative active

2.) to sit= aorist infinitive active.

Until you correct this, the OP is misleading in regards to the verb tense of that passage.

I have never denied that. I have agreed with that in previous posts. Our disagreement is when that occurs in the future. I say upon death you say later.

 

[claninja]

I have never denied that. I have agreed with that in previous posts. Our disagreement is when that occurs in the future. I say upon death you say later.

I don’t remember you conceding to that point, but the op is over 1400 posts in, so indefinitely could have missed it. I just noticed it hadn’t been corrected in the OP and weren’t sure if you agreed or not.

 

[sovereigngrace]

I don’t remember you conceding to that point, but the op is over 1400 posts in, so indefinitely could have missed it. I just noticed it hadn’t been corrected in the OP and weren’t sure if you agreed or not.

I have no difficulty acknowledging that. I have done that previously in a couple of posts. I have told you: what is a spiritual standing of rulership today in Christ will become an actual literal spiritual state when we die.

 

[DavidPT]

I have never denied that. I have agreed with that in previous posts. Our disagreement is when that occurs in the future. I say upon death you say later.

If that is meaning upon death how then do you propose any of that fits the following verse below? You would have us believe only dead ppl will be granted to sit but no ppl still alive will be granted to sit? Your theology is bizarre and it has some being more privileged than others. It also has souls resting under the altar which does not depict anyone sitting on thrones and reigning instead, then when an Amil dies, they don't join the others under the altar told to rest a little season, they instead get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ. Your theology has one being rewarded before they even overcome first, or that they have been bodily resurrected first. That's what happened in Christ's case though, He had to overcome first, then He was granted with sitting on the right hand of God, but apparently He wasn't as privileged as some Amils are.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What I have underlined above is obviously meaning overcomers. And what does Revelation 3:21 indicate about overcomers?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

What I have underlined in Revelation 3:21, there is no doubt in my mind that this is pertaining to reigning with Christ a thousand years. If this doesn't prove Premil, nothing does.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If that is meaning upon death how then do you propose any of that fits the following verse below? You would have us believe only dead ppl will be granted to sit but no ppl still alive will be granted to sit? Your theology is bizarre and it has some being more privileged than others. It also has souls resting under the altar which does not depict anyone sitting on thrones and reigning instead, then when an Amil dies, they don't join the others under the altar told to rest a little season, they instead get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ. Your theology has one being rewarded before they even overcome first, or that they have been bodily resurrected first. That's what happened in Christ's case though, He had to overcome first, then He was granted with sitting on the right hand of God, but apparently He wasn't as privileged as some Amils are.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What I have underlined above is obviously meaning overcomers. And what does Revelation 3:21 indicate about overcomers?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

What I have underlined in Revelation 3:21, there is no doubt in my mind that this is pertaining to reigning with Christ a thousand years. If this doesn't prove Premil, nothing does.

Totally disagree. The Bible depicts God’s people as reigning now - both in life and in death.

 

[sovereigngrace]

If that is meaning upon death how then do you propose any of that fits the following verse below? You would have us believe only dead ppl will be granted to sit but no ppl still alive will be granted to sit? Your theology is bizarre and it has some being more privileged than others. It also has souls resting under the altar which does not depict anyone sitting on thrones and reigning instead, then when an Amil dies, they don't join the others under the altar told to rest a little season, they instead get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ. Your theology has one being rewarded before they even overcome first, or that they have been bodily resurrected first. That's what happened in Christ's case though, He had to overcome first, then He was granted with sitting on the right hand of God, but apparently He wasn't as privileged as some Amils are.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What I have underlined above is obviously meaning overcomers. And what does Revelation 3:21 indicate about overcomers?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

What I have underlined in Revelation 3:21, there is no doubt in my mind that this is pertaining to reigning with Christ a thousand years. If this doesn't prove Premil, nothing does.

 

[DavidPT]

Totally disagree. The Bible depicts God’s people as reigning now - both in life and in death.

Unlike Extreme Preterism, we believe that the thousand years followed by Satan's little season are real identifiable periods of time.

Your Amil glasses have you so blinded that you can't even reason some of these things properly.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

An overcomer is anyone that dies having overcame while they were still alive. An overcomer is anyone that is still alive and remains unto the 2nd coming, meaning those alive that meet Christ in the air. Revelation 3:21 and this---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--has to apply to both groups of overcomers. The reigning meaning here is not meaning forever, the same way Jesus reigning until the last enemy that is destroyed, meaning death, is not meaning forever. Therefore, sitting on the right hand of Jesus is temporary just like Jesus sitting on the right hand of God is temporary. It is only logical then that to sit with Jesus in His throne, IOW to sit upon the right hand of power, not the right hand of the Father, the right hand of the Son, this has to be pertaining to the thousand years.

The thousand years can't be meaning both in this age and after Christ returns. It has to mean one or the other and that it has to be when both groups I mentioned sit with Him in His throne at the same time. And the fact the gospels tell us that He doesn't sit upon His throne of glory until He returns first, what more proof do some of you require that proves Amil is false, as if this isn't enough proof already?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Your Amil glasses have you so blinded that you can't even reason some of these things properly.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

An overcomer is anyone that dies having overcame while they were still alive. An overcomer is anyone that is still alive and remains unto the 2nd coming, meaning those alive that meet Christ in the air. Revelation 3:21 and this---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--has to apply to both groups of overcomers. The reigning meaning here is not meaning forever, the same way Jesus reigning until the last enemy that is destroyed, meaning death, is not meaning forever. Therefore, sitting on the right hand of Jesus is temporary just like Jesus sitting on the right hand of God is temporary. It is only logical then that to sit with Jesus in His throne, IOW to sit upon the right hand of power, not the right hand of the Father, the right hand of the Son, this has to be pertaining to the thousand years.

The thousand years can't be meaning both in this age and after Christ returns. It has to mean one or the other and that it has to be when both groups I mentioned sit with Him in His throne at the same time. And the fact the gospels tell us that He doesn't sit upon His throne of glory until He returns first, what more proof do some of you require that proves Amil is false, as if this isn't enough proof already?

Not so. This is your own opinions. This is bias unobjective contradictory Premil logic. It does not align with Scripture. Jesus is reigning on His throne now at the right hand of majesty on high.

Please consult with the Op (which you are careful to duck around) that refutes your position.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

In the garden of Eden it was the ones inside that were being deceived. Currently pretty much everyone on the planet, except for saved Christians, are deceived and have continued to be deceived for the past 2000 years. This alone has Amil making no sense, as if satan is going to deceive the already deceived once he is loosed, as if that is supposed to make sense.

And, once again, you have misrepresented Amil. It is PREMILS who think that Satan being bound has to do with him being completely incapacitated and not being able to deceive people at all, NOT Amils. Our understanding of his binding has to do with his ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness without the light of God's word and the gospel being shined upon them like he was able to do in OT times. We believe he was bound from doing that, so you should talk about this from that perspective instead of trying to force the Amil view to have the same understanding of Satan's binding that Premils do.

Per Premil not one single person will be deceived during the thousand years, thus plenty of ppl for satan to deceive after the thousand years who are not deceived during the thousand years. Per Premil then, the logic is that satan deceives those no longer deceived. Per Amil, the logic is that satan deceives those already deceived. Are Amils instead going to argue that satan deceives the already saved when he is loosed? Are Amils going to argue that anyone who is not saved, that they are not deceived?

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


You don't deceive someone already deceived, you deceive someone not deceived. Only per Premil are these in verse 8 not deceived during the thousand years. The reason they are not deceived is because Christ and His saints are ruling over the entire planet during the thousand years, thus no deceivers trying to deceive them any longer, not until satan is loosed. During Amils' proposed thousand years there are deceivers throughout the entire thousand years. Even Amils can't deny this. Or if they do they shouldn't be.

You are trying to push your understanding of Satan's binding onto Amil. That isn't fair. You never look at things from the Amil perspective. Again, our understanding of his binding does not have to do with him being completely incapacitated. That is the Premil understanding. Of course Amil isn't going to make sense from the Premil perspective. But, you make no effort to see if it makes sense from the actual Amil perspective of what Satan's binding entails.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your Amil glasses have you so blinded that you can't even reason some of these things properly.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

An overcomer is anyone that dies having overcame while they were still alive. An overcomer is anyone that is still alive and remains unto the 2nd coming, meaning those alive that meet Christ in the air. Revelation 3:21 and this---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--has to apply to both groups of overcomers. The reigning meaning here is not meaning forever, the same way Jesus reigning until the last enemy that is destroyed, meaning death, is not meaning forever. Therefore, sitting on the right hand of Jesus is temporary just like Jesus sitting on the right hand of God is temporary. It is only logical then that to sit with Jesus in His throne, IOW to sit upon the right hand of power, not the right hand of the Father, the right hand of the Son, this has to be pertaining to the thousand years.

The thousand years can't be meaning both in this age and after Christ returns. It has to mean one or the other and that it has to be when both groups I mentioned sit with Him in His throne at the same time. And the fact the gospels tell us that He doesn't sit upon His throne of glory until He returns first, what more proof do some of you require that proves Amil is false, as if this isn't enough proof already?

You have proven nothing. Has no one overcome yet? Why do you act as if no one can overcome until the second coming? Of course, many believers have overcome already. And their souls are now with Christ in heaven.

To think that Jesus is not yet on His throne requires someone to completely ignore passages like this:

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Ephesians 1:19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is the same as the mighty strength 20 he exerted when he raised Christ from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, 21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. 22 And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church,

All authority in heaven and earth was given to Jesus after His resurrection, but He's somehow not on His throne? God raised Christ from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in heaven "far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every name that is invoked" while placing "all things under His feet", but He's not on His throne? I beg to differ. He is now the King of kings and Lord of lords and without question is on His throne now with all authority over all things. That is something that is clearly taught in scripture. Why will Premils like yourself not acknowledge this?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Repeat (3rd time or 4th time, or maybe even 5th time):
1. Beast not in abyss.

How can the beast ascend from the abyss in the future if it isn't there now? If the beast is not in the abyss now then when will the beast be cast into the abyss so that it can later ascend from it?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

As to how you answered question 2, why don't you think satan was also masquerading as an angel of light before Christ's resurrection? Why don't you think satan was also prowling and looking to devour before Christ's resurrection? Actually, I don't even understand SG's point in regards to those particular questions? I would think satan was already prowling and looking to devour from the very beginning, meaning when he was in the garden of Eden. And that he hasn't stopped doing this since, and won't stop doing it until he is in the pit a thousand years, and that once he is in the LOF he will stop doing it for ever at that point.

What impact do you believe that Christ's death and resurrection and the subsequent preaching of the gospel of Christ has had on Satan in terms of what he was able to do in Old Testament times compared to New Testament times, overall?

In my view there are only two occasions when satan will have zero affect on anyone. When he is in the pit and when he is in the LOF. Amils claim he is currently in the pit, yet, the world is not getting better, it keeps getting worse.

Actually, some Amils believe he has already been loosed. I lean towards believing that myself. Of course, there isn't any particular event I can point to in order to prove that's the case, but we can all see that things have been getting worse from a spiritual and moral standpoint.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If that is meaning upon death how then do you propose any of that fits the following verse below? You would have us believe only dead ppl will be granted to sit but no ppl still alive will be granted to sit? Your theology is bizarre and it has some being more privileged than others. It also has souls resting under the altar which does not depict anyone sitting on thrones and reigning instead, then when an Amil dies, they don't join the others under the altar told to rest a little season, they instead get to sit on thrones and reign with Christ. Your theology has one being rewarded before they even overcome first, or that they have been bodily resurrected first. That's what happened in Christ's case though, He had to overcome first, then He was granted with sitting on the right hand of God, but apparently He wasn't as privileged as some Amils are.

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What I have underlined above is obviously meaning overcomers. And what does Revelation 3:21 indicate about overcomers?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

What I have underlined in Revelation 3:21, there is no doubt in my mind that this is pertaining to reigning with Christ a thousand years. If this doesn't prove Premil, nothing does.

I'm an Amil and I too believe that verse is related to reigning with Christ during the thousand years. It definitely doesn't prove Premil, so I guess that means nothing does.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Your Amil glasses have you so blinded that you can't even reason some of these things properly.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

An overcomer is anyone that dies having overcame while they were still alive. An overcomer is anyone that is still alive and remains unto the 2nd coming, meaning those alive that meet Christ in the air. Revelation 3:21 and this---To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne--has to apply to both groups of overcomers. The reigning meaning here is not meaning forever, the same way Jesus reigning until the last enemy that is destroyed, meaning death, is not meaning forever. Therefore, sitting on the right hand of Jesus is temporary just like Jesus sitting on the right hand of God is temporary. It is only logical then that to sit with Jesus in His throne, IOW to sit upon the right hand of power, not the right hand of the Father, the right hand of the Son, this has to be pertaining to the thousand years.

The thousand years can't be meaning both in this age and after Christ returns. It has to mean one or the other and that it has to be when both groups I mentioned sit with Him in His throne at the same time. And the fact the gospels tell us that He doesn't sit upon His throne of glory until He returns first, what more proof do some of you require that proves Amil is false, as if this isn't enough proof already?

The gospels do not tell us that He doesn't sit up on His throne of glory until He returns first. That is how you interpret Matthew 25:31-46, but that passage is talking about Him sitting on His throne of glory to judge people. He hasn't done that yet. But, it doesn't mean He has never sat on His throne of glory and won't until He returns.

Scripture teaches that Jesus was given all power and authority in heaven and on earth after His resurrection (Matt 28:18). Scripture teaches that He was placed in authority above all things after His resurrection and ascension (Eph 1:19-22). How can you think that He has not yet sat on His throne of glory in light of passages that speak of His current Kingship over all things?

 

[DavidPT]

And, once again, you have misrepresented Amil. It is PREMILS who think that Satan being bound has to do with him being completely incapacitated and not being able to deceive people at all, NOT Amils. Our understanding of his binding has to do with his ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness without the light of God's word and the gospel being shined upon them like he was able to do in OT times. We believe he was bound from doing that, so you should talk about this from that perspective instead of trying to force the Amil view to have the same understanding of Satan's binding that Premils do.

How is it misrepresenting Amil if I tend to reason things according to what I think the texts are meaning, then comparing that with what Amils are concluding? I call it an attempt to try and debunk Amil, not misrepresent it.

It might be Premils that think that, and for good reason, and that being because it is true. Otherwise, why would the billions that satan sets out to deceive after he is loosed be the same ones that are already deceived during the thousand years? How did they manage to get deceived during the thousand years if the point as to why satan is cast into the pit to begin with, is because he has been deceiving the nations, thus this prevents him from deceiving the nation any longer?

SG is always saying Premils have a big satan and a little God, when that appears to be true of Amils rather than Premils. It is Amils that think, unless satan is bound the gospel will fail to get published throughout the world, as if to God satan is so powerful, that if He doesn't bind him in some manner, the gospel might fail to get spread throughout the entire planet. When I would think that the gospel manages to get spread throughout the entire planet regardless what satan and his minions try and do to prevent that from happening. And sometimes there is a price to pay. Some actually get martyred for trying to spread the gospel.