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Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

sovereigngrace

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since I believe in a future coming of Christ and future resurrection, no they are not classic “full preterist” arguments. Please see forum rules if you are unsure of the difference between full and partial.



Following Christs resurrection, which was the first.



following Christs resurrection, which was the first.



Following Christs resurrection, which was the first, and the vanishing away of the obsolete old covenant at the coming of Christ in judgement upon Israel.




following Christs resurrection, which was the first, and the vanishing away of the obsolete old covenant, and destruction of the sons of the evil one at the coming of Christ in judgement upon Israel.


If you had nothing to hide then you would have no difficulty telling us what you believe. But you can't even answer simple questions. Hahnism is messed up.

Does this future coming of Christ and physical resurrection literal and does it occur on the one final last day for mankind?
 
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DavidPT

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since I believe in a future coming of Christ and future resurrection, no they are not classic “full preterist” arguments. Please see forum rules if you are unsure of the difference between full and partial.



Following Christs resurrection, which was the first.



following Christs resurrection, which was the first.



Following Christs resurrection, which was the first, and the vanishing away of the obsolete old covenant at the coming of Christ in judgement upon Israel.




following Christs resurrection, which was the first, and the vanishing away of the obsolete old covenant, and destruction of the sons of the evil one at the coming of Christ in judgement upon Israel.




As to how you answered question 2, why don't you think satan was also masquerading as an angel of light before Christ's resurrection? Why don't you think satan was also prowling and looking to devour before Christ's resurrection? Actually, I don't even understand SG's point in regards to those particular questions? I would think satan was already prowling and looking to devour from the very beginning, meaning when he was in the garden of Eden. And that he hasn't stopped doing this since, and won't stop doing it until he is in the pit a thousand years, and that once he is in the LOF he will stop doing it for ever at that point. In my view there are only two occasions when satan will have zero affect on anyone. When he is in the pit and when he is in the LOF. Amils claim he is currently in the pit, yet, the world is not getting better, it keeps getting worse.
 
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Bob_1000

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Just throwing this out there to help but I realize nobody here will accept it but here it is.

The dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan is personified as an angelic being in the Bible but IT is not a being. IT is human DNA and this is easily proven by believing the Bible for exactly what it says.
 
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jgr

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Yes because I believe the word Israel ultimately means Gods people. The confusion comes in when we start taking about national Israel, or the tribes after they split, or the physical area of land, or the people who are true believers in the nation of Israel, and so on.

Totally true.

From the moment of its birth and throughout its history, Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, and God extended His Covenant equally and impartially exclusively to those who were faithful and obedient to it.

God is not a racist, and has never been a racist.

His only identification criteria are two genes of spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.
 
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grafted branch

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Anyone reading Revelation 21-22 should be able to see that there is a city and nations outside of the city. It is only inside of the city where it is not in need of the sun. What about the nations existing outside of the city? Should we just assume they live in the dark for all eternity since the sun allegedly will no longer exist at some point?
According to Revelation 21:22 the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of New Jerusalem. Jeremiah 31:36 says “if those ordinances depart from before me”. Since God is in New Jerusalem where those ordinances are not being observed we can conclude that Israel is no longer considered a nation at that time, regardless of whether the sun is still shining elsewhere or not.
 
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Timtofly

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What are you meaning by this so that I'm on the same page with you? Are you only meaning Adam and Eve or are you meaning God created more ppl than just those two?
Genesis 1:26-28

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

God did not create Eve on day six. God took Eve out of Adam. Can any one explain who the them were? I accept Scripture as written, literally. No sense in turning something into a metaphor to explain the words away.

Is there a difference between God created them male and female and God putting Adam to sleep and made Eve out of Adam's rib?

"And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man."

How can there be them, but yet Adam was lonely?

"And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it."

I think God took Adam and separated him from other sons of God, and placed him in the Garden alone for a reason. A royal priesthood.

Jesus said:
"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar."

Why would Jesus go all the way back to the Garden to include those who served as priest? Why not start somewhere else? Why point out it was the serpent who corrupted what it was to be a priest?

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"

Many claim Adam was alone, and only he and Eve were created. That is not what Genesis 1 and 2 claim in light of other Scripture. Adam was alone, because God separated him from other sons of God and placed him as the keeper of the Garden where he would meet with God on a daily basis. The first temple on earth. At that time without sin, and without an alter. Yes there were other sons of God on earth, and they had multiplied just as God told them to. It was Adam that brought sin into the world, and corrupted the sons of God. It was Adam that disobeyed and became the Father of sinful humanity.

It was Moses who wrote about sin telling us the history of fallen man. Moses wrote it from a fallen perspective, not as Adam being a glorious son of God. Faith was already at work before the Law. The Law was given to point out the strength of sin, not diminish what faith was. The original temple on earth was banned and lost in the destruction of the Flood. It became Paradise at some point, only God knows when. Moses was tasked with setting up a new covenant and tabernacle on earth with a holy of holies. Jacob was the new nation singled out to be a royal priesthood.

You asked why I thought there were other people. I have pointed out that Adam was called out and placed in the Garden as a royal priesthood like Jacob and his family was called out as keepers of the OT covenant.

I think the 1000 year reign on earth is about Adam's resurrected offspring, not the church, starts out without sin and Satan. But not as sons of God. The physical is still the physical on earth for the last 1000 years. Jesus is presenting earth as spotless, minus those who rebel, as all humanity is still presented with a choice to follow Satan or God. God's plan was always to have mankind multiply and fill the earth. Exodus 20:8-10 points out the extent of sin.

"Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God"

Sin is limited by God and has a definite end. Adam allowed sin in with disobedience. After the Second Coming sin is at an end. Yet during this future 1000 years, disobedience is not tolerated, but still ends in death. Death is the last enemy. The sons of God were the them created on the 6th day. Only Adam's family survived because Noah had faith and obeyed God by building an ark. That world was destroyed by the Flood just like Peter claims in 2 Peter 3. The same place where the Holy Spirit inspired Peter to point out the ignorance of not acknowledging a day with the Lord is as a 1000 years. Multiple sons of God on day six. Multiple Days of the Lord. Multiple 1000 year periods of God's grace at work. A limited period of 6 days, 6000 years of Adam's punishment. Not any more time than God took to create reality to begin with. At least using the day equals 1000 years. Not that each day of creation was 1000 years. Adam would not be punished for a week. Adam would be punished for the human side of the equation, 6000 years.
 
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Timtofly

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How did my name get involved in that? I was never a part of that discussion. At least I don't recall taking part in that discussion.
May or may not have been this thread, I just posted my point based on that reply, not in response to a particular conversation.
 
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Timtofly

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Even if you disagree that heaven was measured, you still have the problem of the ordinances of the sun, moon, and star’s departing from before God in Jeremiah 31:36. There is no need <5532> or business of the sun and moon in Revelation 21:23.

So Jeremiah 31:36 can’t be a statement that simply means Israel will always be considered a nation before God (as some would have us believe); it’s a statement that when we come to New Jerusalem, Israel will no longer be considered a nation because the ordinances are not used, they have been removed, there shall be no night.

Hebrews 12:22 says we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem.
Nothing we currently understand will continue after heaven and earth pass away. The new reality will not have a sun and moon. That is why using OT Scripture to deny a future 1000 year period, but attempting to apply it to a totally different reality will not work.

Amil and post mill try to claim the Second Coming is the end of reality. It is not. It is just a new heaven and earth without sin or Satan. Not without a sun and moon.

Of course there will no longer be Nations in the NHNE. No sun and moon either. Obviously not a day nor night either, if this enormous city is constantly a light in this new creation.
 
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Timtofly

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Not so! You are fighting with the scriptural text.

Revelation 11:7-9: “And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.”

Revelation 17:7-8: “And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.”

So, you think because you keep repeating an error that it suddenly makes it a truth? That is not the way it works! How can the beast "figuratively 'ascend from abyss'" (whatever that means)? That is ridiculous. We are looking at theological double-speak. You are obviously trying to defend what you have been taught. We could apply this same logic/wording to Satan and his minions, who are also in the abyss during the intra-Advent. We could say that Satan and his minions "figuratively 'ascend from abyss'" near the end to negate that reality, but that would also be absurd. The reality is, this is classic Premil eisegesis.

It is noticeable that you can't even answer a simple question: "Can you explain how the beast somehow got into the abyss according to your teaching?" This highlights the weakness of your position.
John will be the witness killed by the beast as one of the witnesses. So was John killed by the beast while writing down the book of Revelation as a witness, or after he delivered 7 letters to the 7 churches?

I do not see why it really matters who the beast is nor when it is not. Do Amil need to define this beast to corroborate their theology? The beast seems to affect each generation in a different way. Just like government is always in constant change. Government sometimes of the people for the people. Or of a dictator against the people.

Right now you claim the beast is not, yet it is, because every nation on earth deals with control in different ways. John uses metaphor to explain how humanity is being governed.

No one can say we are this or that to show fulfillment of history. One can only claim that in hindsight. The reason preterism is so popular. They think they have it all figured out. No one does!

You can deny that John is a witness directly involved in what John was witnessing.

"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy."

How can Revelation not be John's written prophecy of those very days?

John was a witness to human government at the time of the Second Coming. A government shattered by the very act of Christ Coming as the Prince of every nation on earth, Matthew 25. The ugly government of man under the hand of Satan is what John was a witness to as the Revelation of Jesus Christ as Prince.
 
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Timtofly

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The name Israel ultimately means Gods people. So if I say I don’t consider myself part of any type of Israel then I might as well say I’m not one of Gods people.

When you use the phrase “spiritual Israel” I assume your referring to Romans 2:28-29. As I stated before I think these terms were used during the period between the cross and AD 70. I don’t have an issue with someone using this term to describe someone who is saved and perhaps using a term like Spiritual Jew would cause an unbeliever to inquire about the meaning and be beneficial in that way. I personally refer to myself simply as a Christian.
Meaning in Christ, not in Israel?

Israel is only a branch. Christ is the root and trunk. Is not "spiritual jew" just a synonym of the "wild gentile branch"? It is not a synonym of who Christ is. Sure Christ is a physical descendant of Judah, and a spiritual son of God. I don't think that is how most people define a spiritual jew. Yet they deny they are trying to replace Israel. It is still a metaphorical replacement.
 
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Timtofly

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Have you actually read what the text states and what it doesn't state?

Revelation 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

What it doesn't state is this---And the planet earth had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it

What it does state is this---And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it


Anyone reading Revelation 21-22 should be able to see that there is a city and nations outside of the city. It is only inside of the city where it is not in need of the sun. What about the nations existing outside of the city? Should we just assume they live in the dark for all eternity since the sun allegedly will no longer exist at some point?
New Jerusalem is the light for the Nations and thus earth.

"And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it."
 
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Timtofly

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Just throwing this out there to help but I realize nobody here will accept it but here it is.

The dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan is personified as an angelic being in the Bible but IT is not a being. IT is human DNA and this is easily proven by believing the Bible for exactly what it says.
I am pretty sure human DNA is not star "dust".
 
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Timtofly

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Totally true.

From the moment of its birth and throughout its history, Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, and God extended His Covenant equally and impartially exclusively to those who were faithful and obedient to it.

God is not a racist, and has never been a racist.

His only identification criteria are two genes of spiritual DNA.

Faith and obedience.

And nothing else.

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Exodus 12:48
And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

Exodus 12:49
One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Leviticus 19:34
But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22
Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.
Genesis 1 should read:

"And God said, Let us make Israel in our image, after our likeness: and let Israel have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created Israel in his own image, in the image of God created he Israel; male and female created he Israel. And God blessed Israel, and God said unto Israel, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
 
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jgr

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Genesis 1 should read:

"And God said, Let us make Israel in our image, after our likeness: and let Israel have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created Israel in his own image, in the image of God created he Israel; male and female created he Israel. And God blessed Israel, and God said unto Israel, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Wouldn't that be dispen ecstasy.
 
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grafted branch

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Nothing we currently understand will continue after heaven and earth pass away.
What about Matthew 24:35? Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
 
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Bob_1000

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I am pretty sure human DNA is not star "dust".
I won’t argue the point, I’m only putting out there for people to consider. The Bible is an esoteric book, the true meaning is hidden and is never plainly written anywhere ... hence over 33,000 “Christian” denominations and continual arguments over pretrib, post trib, water baptism, speaking in tongues and everything else people argue over.

In other words if the Bible portrays the resurrection as the resurrection of dead earthly bodies then it isn’t. If Satan is portrayed as an angelic being, then he isn’t. What gets me is how do people read the Bible for years and never understand this.
 
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claninja

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If you had nothing to hide then you would have no difficulty telling us what you believe.

No more difficult than you admitting you were incorrect about how the greek verb tenses worked in revelation 3:21, which you still have yet to correct in the OP.

no more difficult than your inability to provide 1 verse, outside of revelation, about souls reigning in heaven in order to support your Amil interpretation of revelation 20:4


No more difficult than you claiming you would respond to my post (“Before I answer this, can you clarify?”), but not actually following through.

No more difficult than you ignoring critiques in your OP and attempting divert the Convo to full preterism.


But you can't even answer simple questions.

You may not like my answers, but I did answer all 4 of them, so this statement is blatantly false.

Hahnism is messed up.

ok….?

Does this future coming of Christ and physical resurrection literal and does it occur on the one final last day for mankind?

Yes, I believe so.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No more difficult than you admitting you were incorrect about how the greek verb tenses worked in revelation 3:21, which you still have yet to correct in the OP.

no more difficult than your inability to provide 1 verse, outside of revelation, about souls reigning in heaven in order to support your Amil interpretation of revelation 20:4


No more difficult than you claiming you would respond to my post (“Before I answer this, can you clarify?”), but not actually following through.

No more difficult than you ignoring critiques in your OP and attempting divert the Convo to full preterism.




You may not like my answers, but I did answer all 4 of them, so this statement is blatantly false.



ok….?



Yes, I believe so.

You have to duck around this as it would expose your definition of the second coming and the physical resurrection as a process rather than a literal physical climactic event. You render the thousand years as an illusion and then make Satan's little season ongoing until the believer experiences death.
 
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claninja

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You have to duck around this as it would expose your definition of the second coming and the physical resurrection as a process rather than a literal physical climactic event. You render the thousand years as an illusion and then make Satan's little season ongoing until the believer experiences death.

huh? I don’t believe it is a “process”, whatever that means. I believe Christ came In judgement upon Israel in around 66-70ad. I believe this is what the majority of “at hand” and “soon” statements are about. But, by no means do I believe this negates a future literal climactic coming of Christ.

what does this have to do with your OP?
 
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sovereigngrace

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huh? I don’t believe it is a “process”, whatever that means. I believe Christ came In judgement upon Israel in around 66-70ad. I believe this is what the majority of “at hand” and “soon” statements are about. But, by no means do I believe this negates a future literal climactic coming of Christ.

what does this have to do with your OP?

Do you believe a literal future climactic coming of Christ and a literal resurrection of all mankind occurs as a singular event on the last day?
 
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