pasifika

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How does that relate to this which was previously stated.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Meaning, A written Law does not have to show you that you're a sinner or you've done something evil...you have a "conscience", and a "mind" which God puts there to convict and defend your thoughts...Romans 2

Didn't Adam know good and evil before the Law was given??
 
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Icyspark

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Good to see you here. We have crossed paths through the years. You have had the same screen name. I tried, but couldn't here.


Hi Him,

So I'm guessing someone else has your previous screen name? Do you mind telling me what your other name was?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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BobRyan

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Gen 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why is your face gloomy? 7 If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" -- not just "SOME have sinned - just those born after Sinai"

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world

Gen 13:
10 Lot raised his eyes and saw all the vicinity of the Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere—this was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah—like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt going toward Zoar. 11 So Lot chose for himself all the vicinity of the Jordan, and Lot journeyed eastward. So they separated from each other. 12 Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled in the cities of the vicinity of the Jordan, and moved his tents as far as Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked sinners against the Lord.


Gen 18:
20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done entirely as the outcry, which has come to Me indicates; and if not, I will know.”


Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.





Romans 5:13...therefore, Sin was in the World BEFORE the Law was given, but sin is Not charged against anyone's account where there is No law..

So then Cain punished, the entire world punished at the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah punished for their great sin (exceedingly grave sin) - all prove that Law DID exist before Sinai since if it did not exist - none of them would be sinners, none could be punished for sin that they were not guilty of.

Romans 5 is proving that the Law did exist before Sinai else no one would have been guilty
 
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HIM

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Hi Him,

So I'm guessing someone else has your previous screen name? Do you mind telling me what your other name was?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
Hi Icyspark
You probably do not remember me. Lightbearer. I have Been on Carm, Worthy, And Moderated at Bible-Discussions.
 
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BobRyan

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Meaning, A written Law does not have to show you that you're a sinner or you've done something evil...you have a "conscience", and a "mind" which God puts there to convict and defend your thoughts...Romans 2

Didn't Adam know good and evil before the Law was given??

True -- it was a "sin" to take God's name in vain - even before Sinai
 
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pasifika

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So then Cain punished, the entire world punished at the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah punished for their great sin (exceedingly grave sin) - all prove that Law DID exist before Sinai since if it did not exist - none of them would be sinners, none could be punished for sin that they were not guilty of.

Romans 5 is proving that the Law did exist before Sinai else no one would have been guilty
Yes, the Law existed, but it wasn't given to mankind to follow as a way for salvation....
Because, even if the Law were given at the time of Adam, Cain, Noah etc they still going to break it and Sin..
 
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HIM

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Meaning, A written Law does not have to show you that you're a sinner or you've done something evil...you have a "conscience", and a "mind" which God puts there to convict and defend your thoughts...Romans 2

Didn't Adam know good and evil before the Law was given??
Exactly. They knew they sinned even though they did not have the law written on paper or stone until the Spirit was silence due to constant ill behavior. They had it in their heart as verse 2:15 states.
Romans 5:13...therefore, Sin was in the World BEFORE the Law was given, but sin is Not charged against anyone's account where there is No law..
God has worked through everyone through His Spirit in our hearts since the beginning. So they who sinned without the written law shall perish without the law because they are judged by it because God had been working on them through His Spirit.

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
 
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pasifika

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Exactly. They knew they sinned even though they did not have the law written on paper or stone until the Spirit was silence due to constant ill behavior. They had it in their heart as verse 2:15 states.
God has worked through everyone through His Spirit in our hearts since the beginning. So they who sinned without the written law shall perish without the law because they are judged by it because God had been working on them through His Spirit.

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
You don't have to skip Romans 2:14..indeed when the Gentiles, who do not have the Law do by "nature" things required by the Law, "they are law for themselves, even though they do not have the Law...

So you can see clearly the two groups, the ones who had the Law (Jews) and Gentiles who don't have the Law, yet both groups were judged by God according to what they have...either by the Law (Jews) or apart from the Law (Gentiles)..
 
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Icyspark

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Hi Icyspark
You probably do not remember me. Lightbearer. I have Been on Carm, Worthy, And Moderated at Bible-Discussions.


Hi Lightbearer,

That sounds familiar. I probably wouldn't've interacted too much with you since I spend most of my posts responding to the critics of Adventism.

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Icyspark

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I could be wrong but I don't believe a single person has challenged one specific aspect of the opening post. Why do you suppose that is?

I'd really love for people who disagree with any of my Ten Reasons to engage any one of those reasons and express why, from a biblical standpoint, they disagree.

Let's take a look at the very first of my Ten Reasons and see if you have any disagreement:


1. Sabbath as a Memorial
Genesis 2:1-3
Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.
By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done.

Exodus 20:8-11
“Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

One of the reasons Jesus gives for regularly observing His Sabbath is in reference to the singular monumental event in this world's history—its creation. The Sabbath is a weekly reminder that Jesus created this Earth (John 1:3; Colossians 1:15-17). It is a day to rest from our works just as Jesus rested from His (Hebrews 4:7-10). It is to this very fact of being the Creator that Jesus appeals to over and over in the Scriptures as validation for His claim to being the one and only true God (c.f. 1 Chronicles 16:23-27; 2 Kings 19:15; 2 Chronicles 2:12; Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 33:6; 96:5; 102:25-27; 115:15; 121:2; Isaiah 37:16; 40:20; 45:18; Jeremiah 10:12; 27:5; 32:17; 33:2, 3; 51:15; Jonah 1:9; Job 26:7; Acts 4:24; 14:15; 17:24; Revelation 14:7).

Psalm 111:2-4
Great are the works of the LORD; they are pondered by all who delight in them. Glorious and majestic are his deeds, and his righteousness endures forever. He has caused his wonders to be remembered; the LORD is gracious and compassionate.

If Jesus says to "Remember the Sabbath," and this remembering is directly connected to the "wonders" of His creation, why is it that people find this something they wish to forget? If one were to develop a hierarchy of the most important events in human history would not the act of creation rank toward the very top? Aside from the life, death and resurrection of the Creator, what other event do you suppose would be more worthy of remembering? Interestingly, even though Jesus nor His disciples ever hinted at any regularly repeating recognition for His resurrection, there are some who insist that we honor Sunday as a resurrection memorial. So while we have no divine command for a weekly remembering of the resurrection (making it a tradition of men), we likewise have no command overturning the weekly remembering of the creation. About this Jesus asks, "Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?"​

If God "has caused His wonders to be remembered," on what basis do you think He reversed course and said, "Never mind"?

God bless.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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Icyspark

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I have a question of sorts more than a criticism. I just want to know what you think of this more than anything. What do you think of the idea that Christ is the true sabbath?


Hi True Counterphobia,

I responded to someone else who had a similar question. Maybe you saw this already?

The spiritual rest that Jesus supplies doesn't overturn the physical rest which He also supplies in His once a week Sabbath rest. Compare the following two passages and consider the three color-coded elements and then see if you can answer the related questions:

Matthew 11:28
Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

John 7:37
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

T__ F__ There is a physical component to humans resting on the Sabbath.
T__ F__ Finding spiritual rest in Jesus is no different than drinking spiritual water. Both do not negate the continued need for their physical counterpart.
T__ F__ Resting in Jesus means that humans no longer require any physical rest.​

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark
 
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BobRyan

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Yes, the Law existed, but it wasn't given to mankind to follow as a way for salvation....

The Law was never given to fallen man as a gospel of salvation - as the escape.

Gal 3:
the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

19 Why the Law then? It was added on account of the violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; but God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

=================

When faith came to Adam , to Abraham, to David, to Samuel, to Moses , to Elijah - to all the giants of faith in Heb 11 - that is when they were released from the curse of the Law and that is how Moses and Elijah can stand with Christ - in Glory - in Matt 17 even BEFORE the death of Christ.

One Gospel Gal 1:6-9 in all of time - and that one gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
 
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BobRyan

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The Law was never given to fallen man as a gospel of salvation - as the escape.

Gal 3:
the Law, which came 430 years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

19 Why the Law then? It was added on account of the violations, having been ordered through angels at the hand of a mediator, until the Seed would come to whom the promise had been made. 20 Now a mediator is not for one party only; but God is only one. 21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? Far from it! For if a law had been given that was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has confined everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the Law, being confined for the faith that was destined to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our guardian to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

=================

When faith came to Adam , to Abraham, to David, to Samuel, to Moses , to Elijah - to all the giants of faith in Heb 11 - that is when they were released from the curse of the Law and that is how Moses and Elijah can stand with Christ - in Glory - in Matt 17 even BEFORE the death of Christ.

One Gospel Gal 1:6-9 in all of time - and that one gospel was "preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8
Agreed...the law cannot saved us only the Gospel...and it was given because of transgression and it wasn't given in Eden but in Sinai as you quoted in Galatians 3

So to be clear the Law wasn't given to mankind in Eden but to Israel only in Sinai...
 
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klutedavid

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The word of God is the answer to the problem—both Old and New Testaments. There is only one truth. Why I believe in the seventh-day Sabbath? I can't find one verse to support Sunday sacredness, or Sunday observance as a worship day, but I can find a commandment spoken by God and written with His own hand.

What does Jesus say about the broad way?

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
If this one verse were the only evidence of a wrong path in scripture, one could easily dismiss it and say, "Oh, well, it's the non-believers who are following the broad way. Christians are the narrow way." There's a problem with that line of thinking. The Old and New Testaments prophesy apostasy, which is a problem originating within the church, directly concerning blasphemy, the changing of times and laws of God, persecution of the saints, and more.

On top of the prophesied apostasy, you find statements like this in the New Testament:

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." (Revelation 14:12)
One has to put their fingers in their ears and make loud noises to ignore such statements (and there are so many), which point directly to the Ten Commandments. The commandments of God do not tell us to worship on Sunday. Jesus did not declare Sunday as a new day of worship.

There are numerous threads on this forum where SDA (and others; not to leave them out) quote the Old and New Testaments alike, on the daily, on a wide variety of subjects (not just the Sabbath). The vast majority of these posts are expositional, and contextually sound. Whether you agree or not with the cases presented is your prerogative.

Closing statement regarding the seventh-day Sabbath vs Sunday debate: I have yet to see a compelling argument that trumps the voice of God and His own handwriting. Or the Revelation of Jesus Christ, as given to John, telling us the saints keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
If you keep the ten commandments then you are under the law. If you are under the law then you are not under grace.

The promise of the law was real estate in the middle east, the promised land.

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Which covenant are you a member of the new covenant or the old covenant.

The old covenant was based on the law (the ten commandments).

The new covenant is based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You cannot be a member of both covenants at once.
 
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klutedavid

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For the lost - the Law serves to convict them that they are lost - Rom 3:19-20 makes that case perfectly.

For the born-again the New Covenant writes that Law on the heart - the law known to Jeremiah and his readers (Jer 31:31-34 Heb 8:6-12, Rom 3:31)
The law written on the heart is love. That is God's law. Love does not steal or lie and love is the polar opposite of the law.

If you say that you are under the ten commandments then you are under the law. Anyone under the law cannot be under grace. The law is a yoke, a yoke of works, a yoke of the flesh.
 
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Freth

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If you keep the ten commandments then you are under the law. If you are under the law then you are not under grace.

The promise of the law was real estate in the middle east, the promised land.

Hebrews 8:6
But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

Which covenant are you a member of the new covenant or the old covenant.

The old covenant was based on the law (the ten commandments).

The new covenant is based on the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

You cannot be a member of both covenants at once.

The Ten Commandments can be found throughout the New Testament. They can even be found in end time prophecy.

Love God: Worship and the First Four Commandments

Revelation 13 shows how worship of the dragon, the beast and his image, and receiving the mark are direct satanic counterfeits of the first four (worship) commandments. (i.e. Satan seems to think God's law is important enough to counterfeit.)

Commandment #1
  • Have No Other Gods
    • Exodus 20:1-3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
  • Worship the Dragon
    • Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast...
Commandment #2
  • Do Not Worship Any Graven Image
    • Exodus 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
  • Worship the Image of the Beast
    • Revelation 13:14 ...That they should make an image to the beast...
Commandment #3
  • Do Not Take the Lord's Name in Vain
    • Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
  • Blasphemy Against God
    • Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name...
Commandment #4
  • Seal of God
    • Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
  • Mark of the Beast
    • Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

Love Others: The Last Six Commandments


Revelation 22:10-16

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie [the Ten Commandments and abominations].​

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Conclusion

The very conflict (and the very worship issue) of end time prophecy concerns all Ten Commandments, which is why, again...

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
 
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The Ten Commandments can be found throughout the New Testament. They can even be found in end time prophecy.

Love God: Worship and the First Four Commandments

Revelation 13 shows how worship of the dragon, the beast and his image, and receiving the mark are direct satanic counterfeits of the first four (worship) commandments. (i.e. Satan seems to think God's law is important enough to counterfeit.)

Commandment #1
  • Have No Other Gods
    • Exodus 20:1-3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
  • Worship the Dragon
    • Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast...
Commandment #2
  • Do Not Worship Any Graven Image
    • Exodus 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
  • Worship the Image of the Beast
    • Revelation 13:14 ...That they should make an image to the beast...
Commandment #3
  • Do Not Take the Lord's Name in Vain
    • Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
  • Blasphemy Against God
    • Revelation 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name...
Commandment #4
  • Seal of God
    • Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
  • Mark of the Beast
    • Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.

Love Others: The Last Six Commandments


Revelation 22:10-16

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie [the Ten Commandments and abominations].​

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.


Conclusion

The very conflict (and the very worship issue) of end time prophecy concerns all Ten Commandments, which is why, again...

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Christians are not under the law (ten commandments).

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
 
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