Ten Reasons I'm a Sabbatarian [moved thread]

[BobRyan]

And "do not take God's name in vain" is not mentioned by Paul at all
nor does he mention "Love God with all your heart".

But we do see Paul engaged in Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath" (including believing gentiles apparently since it is "every Sabbath") Acts 18:4

What is your point? that the Bible was downsized to "just the letters of Paul"??

Yes.

Paul said "ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration from God AND IS TO BE USED FOR DOCTRINE" 2 Tim 3:16

Paul "could" have said -- "hey you guys... I am the APOSTLE Paul so just believe whatever I make up and toss your Bibles out the window".... but instead we have 2 Tim 3:16.

So you will need to include the entire law and the prophets, into 'ALL SCRIPTURE'. Too easy Bob.

Far be it from me to say that that text makes your case that is of the form "ignore the Bible just read Paul's letters because they are the only scripture gentiles can use for doctrine"

You seem to have given up just then or did you mean "trust Paul except in 2 Tim 3:16"???

Or did you mean "agree to reject all of scripture except for some of Paul -- else the Bible says you must offer animal sacrifices"???

 

[chad kincham]

Hi chad kincham,

According to Paul, sin is defined by the law and he wouldn't have known what sin was without the law (Romans 7:7).

With that in mind take a look at what he said a couple chapters earlier in the book of Romans:

Romans 5:13
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.​

Here Paul says sin was in the world before the law was given. Based on the fact that the Bible's definition of sin is "transgression of the law," then would it not make sense that what he was actually indicating was that sin was in the world before the codified law (or written law) was given? After all, well before we get to the Exodus account we discover that God is judging people for things which there is no previously revealed God-given command, law, statute, or regulation which would've indicated God's displeasure at certain actions.

For instance, on what basis was Cain punished by God for murdering his brother? There was no revealed command prohibiting murder, yet God warned Cain before his transgression that "sin is crouching at your door. It desires to have you but you must master it" (Genesis 4:7). Since sin is the transgression of the law, then isn't it apparent that Cain was aware that murder was a sin? How else could God claim sin was crouching at his door if Cain had no idea of what sin was?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Scripture says that between Adam and Moses when there was no law, sin was not imputed to anyone, meaning they weren’t punished for their sins, because there was yet no law against them.

That’s why God didn’t kill Cain for murdering Able, since the law calls for a murderer to be put to death, but the law wasn’t given until 430 years after Moses.

And that’s why Abraham wasn’t called an adulterer for having sex with the servant Hagar, since the law that prohibited adultery was not yet given.

Paul was correct that the law was given to show us what sin is, and also correct when he wrote that the law was not meant for the righteous, but for the ungodly, and thus believers have died to the law.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ According to the scriptures love is not separate from God's 10 commandments it is expressed in obedience to them. A detailed scripture response is provided here; here; hear; and here if your interested.

Your response here.

So not telling a lie is really a fervent love towards the brethren?

Your question is already answered in the linked posts you are quoting from. According to the scriptures, Jesus says truly, truly I say unto you that whosoever commits sin is a servant of sin and if the son shall make you free you shall be free indeed *see John 8:31-36 and again Truly truly I say unto you that unless a man is born again he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven *John 3:3-7. God knows that without his power and grace in our lives we do not have the love of God in us *see John 5:42 which is why we need to be born of the Spirit in order to enter into God's new covenant promise to be given a new heart to love and obey God from the heart *see Romans 8:1-4; Romans 3:31; 1 John 3:6-9.

It is true we can be like the Scribes and the Pharisees and appear righteous to men but on the inside be like dead mans bones. Matthew 5:20 is interesting because on the outside the Scribes and Pharisees as Jesus taught appeared righteous to men. Outwardly blameless in regards to following God's 10 commandments but inwardly they were like dead man bones *Matthew 23:27 full of sin (breaking God's Law) *Matthew 23:27-28. Jesus says; For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no wise enter into the kingdom of heaven *Matthew 5:20. The scripture in Isaiah 42:21 was posted to show that Jesus came to teach the true meaning of God's Law and that is it is to be applied to the inside out not for appearance to appear righteous to men but being inwardly full of sin and dead mans bones. God reads the heart and knows we are all sick with sin *Matthew 15:19-20; Matthew 12:34-35; Jeremiah 13:23; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Matthew 15:19-20; John 5:42 and in need of a Saviour from SIN. Many do not know the meaning here Matthew 9:12-13.

This is leading to the new covenant promise of a new heart to love *Hebrews 8:10-12; John 5:42; 1 John 5:17-19; 1 John 4:16; 1 John 5:3; 1 John 4:8. As posted earlier, we do not have the love of God in us *John 5:42 because we are full of sin and dead mans bones. We need to be born of again by God to love *1 John 4:7 and partake of the new covenant promise. This is why Jesus teaches in *John 3:3-7 that unless we are made clean from the inside out and born again to love we cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. This is what Jesus is talking about in Matthew 5:20 when discussing the Scribes and the Pharisees teaching the application of God's law from the inside out.

Whosoever is born of god to love in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12 does not knowingly practice sin *1 John 3:9; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; Romans 3:31; Matthew 22:36-40. This is the good news of the gospels in the new covenant we have a saviour to save us from sin (not in sin) but we have to be made new to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 8:1-4.

1 John 3:3-10 is talking about all those who are born again to love and it is love that fulfills God's law in all those who believe and follow God's word in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:10-12; Romans 13:8-10. this results in a people that keep God's law (10 commandments) from the inside out. *Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14; 1 John 2:3-4; 1 John 3:3-10; Romans 13:8-10; romans 3:31; Hebrews 8:10-12. Unless we are born again to love we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven *John 3:3-7.

…………

Love therefore is expressed in obedience to God's law not by breaking God's law as shown in the scriptures (see here; here; hear; and here) which is why we need to be born of God to walk in His Spirit and enter God's new covenant promise to love him with all of our heart and soul and love our neighbor as ourselves.

........

So what the conclusion of the matter?

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: FEAR GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: FOR THIS IS THE WHOLE DUTY OF MAN.

God’s law (10 commandments) is not abolished they are fulfilled and established in the life of a believer as they believe God’s Word and abide in Christ and walk in God’s Spirit *Galatians 5:16; Romans 3:31; Romans 8:4. It is our faith in God's Word that allows us to walk in God's Spirit *Galatians 5:16. If we walk in the flesh we will die *Romans 8:13.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[BobRyan]

Scripture says that between Adam and Moses when there was no law, sin was not imputed to anyone, meaning they weren’t punished for their sins, because there was yet no law against them.

Gen 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why is your face gloomy? 7 If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" -- not just "SOME have sinned - just those born after Sinai"

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world

Gen 13:
10 Lot raised his eyes and saw all the vicinity of the Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere—this was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah—like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt going toward Zoar. 11 So Lot chose for himself all the vicinity of the Jordan, and Lot journeyed eastward. So they separated from each other. 12 Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled in the cities of the vicinity of the Jordan, and moved his tents as far as Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked sinners against the Lord.

Gen 18:
20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done entirely as the outcry, which has come to Me indicates; and if not, I will know.”

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The entire world wiped out at the flood.
================
A lot of people getting punished for their sin -- before Sinai

 

[BobRyan]

Do you realize that in all of Paul's letters the sabbath is only mentioned once. .

And "do not take God's name in vain" is not mentioned by Paul at all
nor does he mention "Love God with all your heart".

But we do see Paul engaged in Gospel preaching to gentiles and Jews "every Sabbath" (including believing gentiles apparently since it is "every Sabbath") Acts 18:4

What is your point? that the Bible was downsized to "just the letters of Paul"??

Your reference to the book of Acts is not one of Paul's letters.

Paul said "what matters is keeping the Commandments OF GOD" 1 Cor 7:19
And in Acts 18:4 we see Paul in the synagogue worship service "every Sabbath" preaching the Gospel - to both gentiles and Jews.

So we see what Paul was teaching in 1 Cor 7:19 and what he was doing "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4... and your response is that we should not allow ourselves to "notice"??

 

[Freth]

That depends on the interpretation you are following.

Since the law only grants the knowledge of sin. I cannot see why anyone in heaven would need a conviction of sin?

You may need to examine the scripture more carefully.

You're forgetting Lucifer and a third of the angels:

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee [sin].

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven [angels], and did cast them to the earth [because of sin]: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:7-8 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven [because of sin].
​

Sin is transgression of the law of God, no matter where you are—whether on earth or in heaven. The law of God is eternal, and all of His creation are subject to it perpetually.

 

[Albion]

Any denomination could claim "sure we have a good Bible argument so support this-or-that doctrine we hold to - just google for those texts". What kind of "solution" is that??

Well, you quoted me correcting that same mistake as you just made. The recommendation of a search engine was about where to find relevant verses. And that was given in reply to a post asking me that.

I didn't say, and wouldn't say, that if you locate the verses that apply, doing this is going to explain all aspects of the issue and the doctrinal stance of different denominations, and so on. I was simply saying where that person could turn in order to find the relevant verses!

 

[Albion]

Regardless of anything Paul said or didn't say, Jesus pointed to Sabbath observance at the time of the tribulation, as did Isaiah state that the Sabbath would be observed in heaven. What scripture is telling us that the Sabbath is not being observed, or is paused, between the crucifixion and the second coming? None.

That's not even the controversy that's been under discussion here.

 

[BobRyan]

Colossians 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

It would certainly appear that Paul was not preaching the sabbath to the Gentiles.

"a Sabbath day" is a reference to the annual Sabbaths of Lev 23 - ceremonial Sabbaths.

However not the Ten Commandment Sabbath for Paul said
"what matters is Keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
and "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, you quoted me correcting that same mistake as you just made. The recommendation of a search engine was about where to find relevant verses. And that was given in reply to a post asking me that.

I didn't say, and wouldn't say, that if you locate the verses that apply, doing this is going to explain all aspects of the issue and the doctrinal stance of different denominations, and so on. I was simply saying where that person could turn in order to find the relevant verses!

No matter whether a given doctrine is correct or not "a google search" can find at least one of the Bible texts that is used by its proponents - to promote it in some way.

 

[Freth]

That's not even the controversy that's been under discussion here.

What exactly is under discussion? Last we spoke, you gave a vague reference to a search engine.

 

[Greengardener]

Any proof would suffice. Do you have any? Where are Christians commanded by God to rest on the seventh day?

-CryptoLutheran

I'm always intrigued by this question. The burning question to me is, Where were Christians commanded to set aside their long held view of the Sabbath day? It seems to me that something so important that it warranted a place, and 4th place at that, in the "Top Ten" and which was tied to the disruption of Hebrew society and their exile, would have necessitated a direct commandment from Jesus to disband. While He told the Samaritan woman that a time was coming when true worshipers would worship in spirit and truth, I can't find one place where He told His disciples to quit the Sabbath thing. History gives a clear picture, pointing to changes that started about the time John was leaving the scene and culminating with Constantine. The answer I've come to is that whenever we think we have a better idea than what God told us, we might want to think again because He knows what will work to bring us to a place where we walk and talk like He does.

 

[BobRyan]

Any proof would suffice. Do you have any? Where are Christians commanded by God to rest on the seventh day?

-CryptoLutheran

And where did Paul say "Christians are to Love God with all their heart"?
And where did Paul or Jesus say "do not take God's name in vain"???

God says that in the New Earth long after the cross: "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship" Is 66:23

 

[pasifika]

Gen 4:6 Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why is your face gloomy? 7 If you do well, will your face not be cheerful? And if you do not do well, sin is lurking at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

Rom 3:23 "ALL have sinned" -- not just "SOME have sinned - just those born after Sinai"

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all mankind, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world

Gen 13:
10 Lot raised his eyes and saw all the vicinity of the Jordan, that it was well watered everywhere—this was before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah—like the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt going toward Zoar. 11 So Lot chose for himself all the vicinity of the Jordan, and Lot journeyed eastward. So they separated from each other. 12 Abram settled in the land of Canaan, while Lot settled in the cities of the vicinity of the Jordan, and moved his tents as far as Sodom. 13 Now the men of Sodom were exceedingly wicked sinners against the Lord.

Gen 18:
20 And the Lord said, “The outcry of Sodom and Gomorrah is indeed great, and their sin is exceedingly grave. 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done entirely as the outcry, which has come to Me indicates; and if not, I will know.”

Jude 1:7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Romans 5:13...therefore, Sin was in the World BEFORE the Law was given, but sin is Not charged against anyone's account where there is No law..

 

[ViaCrucis]

I'm always intrigued by this question. The burning question to me is, Where were Christians commanded to set aside their long held view of the Sabbath day? It seems to me that something so important that it warranted a place, and 4th place at that, in the "Top Ten" and which was tied to the disruption of Hebrew society and their exile, would have necessitated a direct commandment from Jesus to disband. While He told the Samaritan woman that a time was coming when true worshipers would worship in spirit and truth, I can't find one place where He told His disciples to quit the Sabbath thing. History gives a clear picture, pointing to changes that started about the time John was leaving the scene and culminating with Constantine. The answer I've come to is that whenever we think we have a better idea than what God told us, we might want to think again because He knows what will work to bring us to a place where we walk and talk like He does.

Out of curiosity, what are your historical sources?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[HIM]

Do you realize that in all of Paul's letters the sabbath is only mentioned once. The only mention of the sabbath is in the letter to the Colossians.

Colossians 2:16
Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day.

It would certainly appear that Paul was not preaching the sabbath to the Gentiles.

Paul preach the Gospel not the Sabbath. But you are mislead in your thinking of the Sabbath in regards to Colossians..
Follow along please.
We are rooted, built up and established in the faith in Him. We are complete in Him, circumcised in the putting of the body of the sins of the flesh. Buried and risen with Him in baptism, quicken together with HIM walking in newness of life. Forgiving us all trespasses. Blotting out the handwriting TO THE ordinances. Not the ordinances themselves but the handwriting to them or in them. THE ONES THAT HAD TO DO WITH FORGIVENESS having been forgiven all trespasses. He took them out of the way nailing them to the cross. Having spoiled their powers, their authority. He triumphed over them in it, the Cross. Let no man therefore, Because of what was just said judge you in meat, drink or respect of Holy day, new moon or sabbath days. These that were of the handwriting to the ordinances. NOT THE ORDINANCES themselves and certainly not the ten commandments.

Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting to the ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled the (principalities) first commencement and authorities, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

 

[BobRyan]

Out of curiosity, what are your historical sources?

-CryptoLutheran

The Bible writers

 

[HIM]

Romans 5:13...therefore, Sin was in the World BEFORE the Law was given, but sin is Not charged against anyone's account where there is No law..

How does that relate to this which was previously stated.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Icyspark]

Thanks good post and I enjoyed reading it. Did you write this? If you did it is well put together. Welcome to CF cycoark and nice to meet you. HAPPY SABBATH!

Hi LoveGodsWord,

Yes I wrote it.

Thanks for the complements and for the greeting!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[HIM]

Hi LoveGodsWord,

Yes I wrote it.

Thanks for the complements and for the greeting!

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Good to see you here. We have crossed paths through the years. You have had the same screen name. I tried, but couldn't here.