Futurist Only the life of a saint during the great tribulation?

[Jamdoc]

I'm not sure I follow you exactly so I'm not sure this will help clarify my point.
In the 7th Trumpet, which is Revelation 12, the elect (Israel) are gathered. Then Satan goes after the rest of those who have the testimony of Jesus (the church). After the 7th Trumpet is when sat Satan attacks the church. Revelation 13, the beasts, come after the 7th Trumpet gathering of Israel. THEN the greatest tribulation that ever was, or ever shall be, shall befall those Gentile believers. The 3 Hebrew children in Daniel 3 are called by Gentile names in the scripture because it is a sign for Gentile believers at the end to not worship the beast or his image.

The 7th trumpet is Revelation 11, rather than 12, 12 seems to start the Chronology over at the birth of Jesus, kind of disconnecting it from the events previous as far as order goes.
Revelation 11 to me at least, is kind of the final event, it parallels Armageddon. It's Jesus claiming His Kingdom, it has that sense of finality. The next events being the beast ruling the world and such only make sense to me if it's not still in Chronological order.
Revelation 10:7 says that the 7th Trumpet reveals the full mystery of God so.. that also tells me it's the last event and the rest of the events are parallel accounts.
Otherwise you have Jesus claiming the kingdoms of the earth, then handing them back to Satan to give to the Antichrist. If it is a parallel rather than fully in Chronological order, well then Revelation 13 parallels the 5th seal, and Revelation 14 parallels the 6th seal, and Revelation 16 parallels the 7 trumpets., and Revelation 19 parallels Revelation 11 after the 7th trumpet. It all goes in the same order of events. Persecution of the saints, followed by an appearance of Jesus in the clouds followed by saints praising God in heaven (Revelation 7, 15) followed by the wrath of God, (trumpets, bowls, not the same events but happening kind of in the same period of time, and some seem connected at least) and Jesus claiming His Kingdom.
It's kind of another topic though

The real point is, whatever position you take on the rapture and the second coming, there's saints that the Antichrist makes war against, they cannot buy or sell, and some are beheaded.

So that's mostly what I'm focusing on, THOSE people. Whatever you wish to call them. You referred to them as the Church so I take it you're not pretribulationist (and I'd agree)

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, [<Rev 12] The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Right, and Michael plays a big part in Revelation 12 too, so there's some significance to Michael in the end times, Michael no longer protecting Israel is what I think it is, is he the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2? Some think so, I'm not entirely sure. He could be though with this connection in both Daniel 12 and Revelation 12.

I think Jesus will help them with food and clothing, but I'm sure death will come in every kind of way during that time. Jesus isn't cruel and heartless so I'm sure if they steal a crust of bread they aren't going to hell over it.

Matthew 16:25 is the one thing that I'm kind of wary about trusting in the idea that it'd be okay to steal to survive in a desperate time like that. I sure hope for those people whether it's me or not, that God provides for them.

My understanding here is not with the mainstream. The letters to the churches in Revelation have absolutely nothing to do with the ancient churches in Asia. Those churches do not yet exist, but they will. If you read them carefully Jesus speaks to them as if they know He is about to come and He makes promises to them. For example:
Revelation 2:25 But hold fast what you have till I come.
If this was about the ancient churches, why did Jesus make them a promise to hold fast until I come if He knew good and well that church would be long gone before He came? He would never make a promise that would fail.
Therefore, the church in Philadelphia Asia, that will exist during the time of the most severe testing the world has ever known and it is the only safe haven.

I see the letters as both being to a 1st century Church, but also to the end times Church.
Things like the letter to the Church of Thyatira only make sense if it's end times instructions. Because the Great Tribulation only happens once. So that part at least wasn't really 1st century relevant, nor is it relevant to the idea of the "7 church ages" theory.
I lean towards 7 church "types" I guess. Ephesus being a church that kinda forgets what it was like being lost and stopped loving salvation. They do good works, but not in the right spirit I guess. Maybe they're "woke" Churches for a lack of a better term. Focusing on doing good works for social justice rather than the Gospel.
Smyrna being those churches that get raided and people get arrested (and executed) for being a part of, Jesus doesn't have any rebukes, just words of comfort.
Pergamos and Thyatira both hold bad doctrines that seem permissive of sin. Think your Joel Osteen megachurches that never preach against sin. But I'm not sure what separates Pergamos from Thyatira in particular except Thyatira has women preachers I guess?
Sardis, it seems like a Church that has abandoned teaching prophecy. That happens in a lot of churches apparently where Prophecy makes them uncomfortable so they avoid it. They don't watch for Jesus, maybe they're preterist, historicist, something like that.
Philadelphia, what stands out to me about the letter is that they seem to stay open and inviting to people, and if this is end times relevant, then they'd keep meeting and being welcome to people even during tribulation. Think about 2020, when a lot of Churches closed to comply with the government, and while many did call the bluff and reopen, some stayed closed.

and then of course Laodicea.. which seems to be more like a social club than a Church.

anyway.. I don't think it'll be just 1 individual church somewhere in the world that'd be refuge but I guess it'd be seeking a "Philadelphia" like church, like those that didn't shut down over Covid, or at least reopened quickly after realizing the government lied to them, and won't close down despite lockdowns from now on.

 

[Timtofly]

The 7th trumpet is Revelation 11, rather than 12, 12 seems to start the Chronology over at the birth of Jesus, kind of disconnecting it from the events previous as far as order goes.
Revelation 11 to me at least, is kind of the final event, it parallels Armageddon. It's Jesus claiming His Kingdom, it has that sense of finality. The next events being the beast ruling the world and such only make sense to me if it's not still in Chronological order.
Revelation 10:7 says that the 7th Trumpet reveals the full mystery of God so.. that also tells me it's the last event and the rest of the events are parallel accounts.
Otherwise you have Jesus claiming the kingdoms of the earth, then handing them back to Satan to give to the Antichrist. If it is a parallel rather than fully in Chronological order, well then Revelation 13 parallels the 5th seal, and Revelation 14 parallels the 6th seal, and Revelation 16 parallels the 7 trumpets., and Revelation 19 parallels Revelation 11 after the 7th trumpet. It all goes in the same order of events. Persecution of the saints, followed by an appearance of Jesus in the clouds followed by saints praising God in heaven (Revelation 7, 15) followed by the wrath of God, (trumpets, bowls, not the same events but happening kind of in the same period of time, and some seem connected at least) and Jesus claiming His Kingdom.
It's kind of another topic though

Why is the order John gave bizarre?

Of course your private reasoning is not bizarre to you, because you would not claim your own understanding as bizarre. Yet John's understanding is bizarre to you.

What is bizarre is you thinking stealing food would lead to an arrest, and the arrest would lead to being beheaded. That starving to death without the mark is preferred over getting one's head chopped off instead of receiving the mark. Those with their heads chopped off will not have to worry about eating or starving. The goal of not taking the mark is accomplished by having one's head chopped off, not by starving to death. The sooner one makes that decision the less problems they face to stay alive or avoid the mark.

Was Jesus bizarre in telling us that if thy eye offend thee, cut it out? Or if thy hand offend thee, cut it off? To avoid the mark, one has to cut one's head off. "Not eating" or "eating" will not prevent the mark. The offense is taking the mark. The solution is to have one's head chopped off. Problem solved.

Those who get their head chopped off are resurrected and called blessed. That may sound bizarre, but that is the Word of God.

 

[Jamdoc]

Why is the order John gave bizarre?

Of course your private reasoning is not bizarre to you, because you would not claim your own understanding as bizarre. Yet John's understanding is bizarre to you.

What is bizarre is you thinking stealing food would lead to an arrest, and the arrest would lead to being beheaded. That starving to death without the mark is preferred over getting one's head chopped off instead of receiving the mark. Those with their heads chopped off will not have to worry about eating or starving. The goal of not taking the mark is accomplished by having one's head chopped off, not by starving to death. The sooner one makes that decision the less problems they face to stay alive or avoid the mark.

Was Jesus bizarre in telling us that if thy eye offend thee, cut it out? Or if thy hand offend thee, cut it off? To avoid the mark, one has to cut one's head off. "Not eating" or "eating" will not prevent the mark. The offense is taking the mark. The solution is to have one's head chopped off. Problem solved.

Those who get their head chopped off are resurrected and called blessed. That may sound bizarre, but that is the Word of God.

The idea that Revelation is totally in Chronological order is bizarre because Revelation 11 ends with Jesus ruling forever and ever, and if you take the book as being entirely in Chronological order, then Jesus' first act as ruler of the world is to give it back to Satan

and your idea that everyone is martyred is not based in scripture because Jesus promises the days will be cut short because if they weren't NO FLESH would be saved. That is bodies. Not souls. Jesus actually is going to return and save the elect while some are still alive and breathing.

So there will be some who manage to hide and evade capture and not starve.

 

[Timtofly]

The idea that Revelation is totally in Chronological order is bizarre because Revelation 11 ends with Jesus ruling forever and ever, and if you take the book as being entirely in Chronological order, then Jesus' first act as ruler of the world is to give it back to Satan

and your idea that everyone is martyred is not based in scripture because Jesus promises the days will be cut short because if they weren't NO FLESH would be saved. That is bodies. Not souls. Jesus actually is going to return and save the elect while some are still alive and breathing.

So there will be some who manage to hide and evade capture and not starve.

That is what Daniel 9:37 states.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Yes the 7th Trumpet is the victory Trumpet. Explain why the week is cut in half and made desolate.

 

[Jamdoc]

That is what Daniel 9:37 states.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

Yes the 7th Trumpet is the victory Trumpet. Explain why the week is cut in half and made desolate.

The abomination of desolation is not the 7th Trumpet and Jesus claiming the Kingdoms of the Earth as His Kingdom...

 

[BobRyan]

Whether you believe that they will be second class citizens of heaven, the "tribulation saints" or whatever, there will be people who are saved who have to live during the worst persecution that the planet will ever see, and never see again.

During this time, they will not be able to buy food, and will likely be actively hunted to be put to death.

So.. is it then still condemned if they have to steal to eat,

"your bread and water will be sure" Is 33:

Is 33:14 "Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
“Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with everlasting burning?”
15 One who walks righteously and speaks with integrity,
One who rejects unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
One who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking at evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure."

Matt 24 says the saints are raptured AFTER the Tribulation.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

 

[BobRyan]

That is what Daniel 9:37 states.

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

That is the 490 year timeline that started in 457 B.C and points to the death of Christ in the middle of that 70th week where as Heb 10:4-12 says Christ causes sacrifices and offerings to cease by His death on the cross - a "once for all" sacrifice.

Two easy rules to follow
1. All Bible timelines are internally in-tact and contiguous. If you know the start point and length -- then you know the end point.

2. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year.

 

[Jamdoc]

"your bread and water will be sure" Is 33:

Is 33:14 "Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
“Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with everlasting burning?”
15 One who walks righteously and speaks with integrity,
One who rejects unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
One who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking at evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure."

So why are you applying these verses to saints during the great tribulation? I'll look into it, but I don't like taking things out of context much.

Matt 24 says the saints are raptured AFTER the Tribulation.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I agree but disagree with where in Revelation you place that because you don't know the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God.. but
this thread isn't about rapture timings

 

[Timtofly]

The abomination of desolation is not the 7th Trumpet and Jesus claiming the Kingdoms of the Earth as His Kingdom...

I did not say the 7th Trumpet is the abomination. I said Daniel 9:27 is the 7th Trumpet. The confirmation of the Covenant is the 7th Trumpet. Verse 27 is more than just an abomination of desolation. The 42 months is the desolation of abominations.

 

[Timtofly]

That is the 490 year timeline that started in 457 B.C and points to the death of Christ in the middle of that 70th week where as Heb 10:4-12 says Christ causes sacrifices and offerings to cease by His death on the cross - a "once for all" sacrifice.

Two easy rules to follow
1. All Bible timelines are internally in-tact and contiguous. If you know the start point and length -- then you know the end point.

2. All apocalyptic timelines use day-for-year.

69 weeks is what Gabriel gave as contiguous. Gabriel defined the 70th week as the Messiah the Prince. The Prince part is still a future coming known as the Second Coming.

 

[keras]

I did not say the 7th Trumpet is the abomination. I said Daniel 9:27 is the 7th Trumpet. The confirmation of the Covenant is the 7th Trumpet. Verse 27 is more than just an abomination of desolation. The 42 months is the desolation of abominations.

I like this.
It will be during the final 42 months before Jesus Returns, that all the ungodly and wicked peoples will be destroyed. Culminating with Armageddon.
The citizens of the 1000 year Kingdom of Jesus, will all be Christians.

 

[Jamdoc]

I did not say the 7th Trumpet is the abomination. I said Daniel 9:27 is the 7th Trumpet. The confirmation of the Covenant is the 7th Trumpet. Verse 27 is more than just an abomination of desolation. The 42 months is the desolation of abominations.

This is not true. Daniel 9:27 contains the Abomination of Desolation within it, you were saying that the 7th trumpet takes place in the middle of Daniel 9:27, which is not true because what takes place during the middle of 9:27 is the AOD.

The 7th trumpet is closer to "the consummation" at the end.

 

[Timtofly]

This is not true. Daniel 9:27 contains the Abomination of Desolation within it, you were saying that the 7th trumpet takes place in the middle of Daniel 9:27, which is not true because what takes place during the middle of 9:27 is the AOD.

Those 42 months are the result of the confirmation.

They are not necessary nor demanded.

I agree that the 7th Trumpet should not include chapters 13-19.

It seems John and Gabriel gave the worse case scenario. If the abomination of desolation does not happen then the Covenant was confirmed and no more souls could be found needing to be harvested, and Revelation 14 happens with the winepress. That is the end of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. No abomination, no 42 months, no FP, Satan is never given any of the authority that Revelation 13 grants. No image, no mark. Revelation 10:7 is completed in one set of days. The week is not split. The Millennium starts when Revelation 14 ends, not much later in chapter 19.

 

[BobRyan]

69 weeks is what Gabriel gave as contiguous. .

Dan 9:1-5 contiguous 70 year timeline - everyone admits it. Which is why Israel is still not stuck in Babylon

In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city"

A contiguous 490 day-for-year timeline. Starts in 457 B.C. -- ends in 34 A.D.

 

[BobRyan]

Is 33:
14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
Trembling has seized the godless.
“Who among us can live with the consuming fire?
Who among us can live with everlasting burning?”
15 One who walks righteously and speaks with integrity,
One who rejects unjust gain
And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;
One who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed
And shuts his eyes from looking at evil;
16 He will dwell on the heights,
His refuge will be the impregnable rock;
His bread will be given him,
His water will be sure.

So why are you applying these verses to saints during the great tribulation? I'll look into it, but I don't like taking things out of context much.

Is 33 14 speaks of great tribulation and Rev 16 points to this as the time of the wrath of God and 7 last plagues.

It is that context that we find the saints have fled to the mountains "his refuge will be the impregnable rock" and in that time "Their bread and water will be sure" for the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24 says the saints are raptured AFTER the Tribulation.

29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet blast, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

I agree but disagree with where in Revelation you place that because you don't know the difference between tribulation and the wrath of God.

The time of great tribulation for the Earth is the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 - it is after that - we have the Rapture and appearing of Christ in Matt 24. "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory" Matt 24:30

That appearing only happens at the start of the 1000 years - and is described in Rev 19. And that is where Jesus said "I will come again and receive you to myself" John 14:3. It is the 1 Thess 4:13-18 event

 

[Jamdoc]

The time of great tribulation for the Earth is the 7 last plagues of Rev 16 - it is after that - we have the Rapture and appearing of Christ in Matt 24. "They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory" Matt 24:30

That appearing only happens at the start of the 1000 years - and is described in Rev 19. And that is where Jesus said "I will come again and receive you to myself" John 14:3. It is the 1 Thess 4:13-18 event

Tribulation =/= wrath of God
the bowls/vials are the wrath of God
not Tribulation.

The sun and moon darken after the 6th seal
not Revelation 19
so the Great Tribulation ends before the 6th seal. Anything after? Is not the Great Tribulation according to Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

Tribulation =/= wrath of God
the bowls/vials are the wrath of God
not Tribulation.

Tribulation is "trouble".

All through the ages saints have suffered tribulation -- including 1260 years of the dark ages where millions upon millions of saints were slain. But at the end of time there is the 7 last plagues where tribulation is very severe.

Still - as Matt 24 point out we have the appearing of Christ - all mankind sees him -- the saints are raptured and as Rev 19 points out - the lost are all slain (so also does 2 Thess 1 point that out).

The sun and moon darken after the 6th seal
not Revelation 19

The 6th seal is in Rev 6 -- and is the appearing of Christ also depicted in Rev 19

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”​

The end of the 3 angel's messages in Rev 14 --- is the appearing of Christ also depicted in Rev 19
Rev 14

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, with a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. ( so that is the saints raptured)

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trampled outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of 1,600 stadia. (Wicked destroyed)​

Rev 19 is also the depiction of the appearing of Christ


so the Great Tribulation ends before the 6th seal. And it ends before Rev 19 appearing and it ends before the reaping in Rev 14... because as Matt 24 points out - all tribulation ends at the appearing of Christ.

 

[Jamdoc]

not the topic of this thread.

But those are 2 events
1 before the wrath of God
1 after the wrath of God

 

[Timtofly]

Dan 9:1-5 contiguous 70 year timeline - everyone admits it. Which is why Israel is still not stuck in Babylon

In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of Median descent, who was made king over the kingdom of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

Dan 9:24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city"

A contiguous 490 day-for-year timeline. Starts in 457 B.C. -- ends in 34 A.D.

Gabriel stops at 69 weeks, period:

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off."

Nothing about 70 weeks in those verses. Your contiguous weeks only add up to 69. Jesus the Messiah the Prince is Himself the 70th week. The Atonement on the Cross was God as Christ doing the confirmation. Jesus obediently fulfilled the first 3.5 years as Messiah. Jesus will obediently fulfill what is left of the last 3.5 years as Prince on a throne in Jerusalem. This will happen at the Second Coming. This will happen at the 6th Seal, not at the battle of Armageddon.

Of course the 70 years in Babylon were completed. Jesus Christ and the 70th week have nothing to do with returning from Babylon in the 70th year.