Futurist Only the life of a saint during the great tribulation?

[Jamdoc]

Whether you believe that they will be second class citizens of heaven, the "tribulation saints" or whatever, there will be people who are saved who have to live during the worst persecution that the planet will ever see, and never see again.

During this time, they will not be able to buy food, and will likely be actively hunted to be put to death.

So.. is it then still condemned if they have to steal to eat, being that there is no lawful way for them to acquire food (and remember, poaching is still stealing and illegal)? Would it be condemned if they have to lie about who they are (think Jews during the holocaust, or the people that hid them from the Nazis)? They're going to be on the run so they may not be able to grow their own food, and anything they may have stashed away for such a time they may have to leave behind to escape (Remember, Jesus told those in Judea to just flee, and specifically told them NOT to return to the house to gather things.. just flee with the clothes on your back into the wilderness, Matthew 24:15-18)

Outside of God giving them manna from heaven, I am wondering if they will have to willingly starve to death (in a sense suicide) in order to avoid sinning?

 

[keras]

Revelation 12:6-17 tells us where the Christians will be during the 3 1/2 year, or 42 months, or 1260 days, of the Great Tribulation. Rev 8:2 to Rev 19:10
Those who kept their faith and trusted in God for their protection, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. Those who violated the Covenant, by their agreement to a 7 year peace treaty, will stay in Jerusalem. Rev 12:17
We see this separation also in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2

 

[Jamdoc]

Revelation 12:6-17 tells us where the Christians will be during the 3 1/2 year, or 42 months, or 1260 days, of the Great Tribulation. Rev 8:2 to Rev 19:10
Those who kept their faith and trusted in God for their protection, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. Those who violated the Covenant, by their agreement to a 7 year peace treaty, will stay in Jerusalem. Rev 12:17
We see this separation also in Daniel 11:32 and in Zechariah 14:2

That's for the woman (Israel, that gave birth to the Messiah), not Christians.
Note that Satan becomes wrathful at not being able to destroy the woman, and then turns on a second group of people, identified as Christians.
There is nothing about those in Revelation 12:17 violating a covenant, in fact it's said they keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ. So the ones that the Antichrist turns on after being unable to kill the Jews, are Christians.

This is where replacement theology fails, not seeing the difference between who gave birth to Messiah, and those that followed Jesus Christ, instead considering yourself as belonging to those who gave birth to Christ, rather than the second group, and inventing your own definition to get around what is clearly a different group.

 

[Timtofly]

The 144k are sealed. Does that mean they do not have to eat, but nourished and protected. The disciples of the first century walked through a field and ate as they were walking. Since they will be with Christ and just one lunch could feed 5000, how much would it take for Christ to feed 144k in the same manner? The angels will be on earth as well. After Jesus fasted, the angels brought Him food. It would seem that the camp of the saints are these 144k throughout this time. Are they Christians in the sense we accepted Christ, or are they Christians in the fact that God elected them for a certain purpose.

Any souls harvested for the kingdom are just that. The souls are removed from the physical body during the GT. That is the whole point of the GT, not physical survival. The GT is the complete eradication of Adam's flesh and blood. That is why it is the greatest trouble of all time. These harvested souls will either spend the next 1000 years in Death or reign with Christ on the earth. They are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. They also multiply and fill up the earth during the Millennium. Pain will only endure for this night of GT, but joy and blessings come in the morning and light of the Day of the Lord.

As for the 42 months during the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, the 144k and Jesus Christ the Prince will not be on the earth. Only the 2 witnesses will be a thorn in the side of Satan's rule. Those wishing to be saved will have to have their head removed, to avoid the mark. The mark is the end of the line for Adam's flesh and blood. They are physically alive, but no longer in the Lamb's book of life.


Why some here think the church has to wonder in the wilderness of utter desolation between leaving Egypt (this) world and Paradise (in heaven) at the Second Coming is beyond me. Paul says those alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The Lord, not Jesus Christ. The Lord will be in Paradise during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus Christ the Prince will be on earth with His disciples, the 144k removing souls from bodies along with the angels. That is what Revelation 7 declares. The temple of God is Paradise with the Lord. There is not going to be years of wandering in this GT by any NT believer. Only those who reject Christ will be here trying to figure out how to survive. There is not even a guarantee they will choose to have their head removed to avoid the mark, or just embrace Satan with their whole heart. Most will die and end up in sheol or Death, the two soul harvesters mentioned in the 4th Seal. Billions are claimed to be killed even before the 6th Seal is opened.

Seeing as not many think the Seals have to be opened first, but in parallel with, and claim the antichrist comes prior to the 6th Seal. Seeing as how many do not think the Trumpets start sounding after the 7th Seal.

You all have figured out your own route through the GT other than what John wrote. I was one who liked looking at a map, and did not like to stop and ask for directions. In this case, people's opinions of how to navigate Revelation, seem pointless as no one here has lived through this time period. I am not missing out on a local's take of the road map. John, the only "local" already left all the instructions necessary.

 

[RandyPNW]

Whether you believe that they will be second class citizens of heaven, the "tribulation saints" or whatever, there will be people who are saved who have to live during the worst persecution that the planet will ever see, and never see again.

During this time, they will not be able to buy food, and will likely be actively hunted to be put to death.

So.. is it then still condemned if they have to steal to eat, being that there is no lawful way for them to acquire food (and remember, poaching is still stealing and illegal)? Would it be condemned if they have to lie about who they are (think Jews during the holocaust, or the people that hid them from the Nazis)? They're going to be on the run so they may not be able to grow their own food, and anything they may have stashed away for such a time they may have to leave behind to escape (Remember, Jesus told those in Judea to just flee, and specifically told them NOT to return to the house to gather things.. just flee with the clothes on your back into the wilderness, Matthew 24:15-18)

Outside of God giving them manna from heaven, I am wondering if they will have to willingly starve to death (in a sense suicide) in order to avoid sinning?

Good questions that I've asked myself at one time or another. I've had many years, as a Postrib, to consider these things. I no longer believe that the reign of Antichrist will be the worst persecution in history--at least, I don't think that's what the passage means by speaking of the worst tribulation in history.

Matt 24.21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

What Jesus meant to say, I believe, is that Israel's *longest* period of punishment will take place in the NT age, and will begin with the destruction of Jerusalem in that generation. As such, it will be the worst tribulation, lasting longer than any prior national judgment among the Jews.

How can you compare the destruction of the Jews in the Jewish wars with the Jewish pogroms in history? How can one compare the Holocaust with the reign of Antichrist? How can one compare the burning of Christians by the ancient Romans with the killing of Christians in the Beast Empire?

No, suffering is suffering. What makes the "great tribulation" worse than any other prior suffering among the Jews is its length of time, the duration of its punishment. It is not so much to make the Jews suffer more for their sins than to give adequate time for other nations to hear the Gospel.

While other nations are able to hear the message of Christ, the Jews are allowed to be dominated by ungodly, Christ-rejecting leaders, without being completely destroyed. Still, there will always be believers in Israel. It's just that Israel cannot be fully saved until the wicked among them are rooted out. And if this was done immediately, then Israel would have to have been saved immediately, and there would be no time for other nations to get saved.

So there have been many look-alikes for the reign of Antichrist, just as the Apostle John said.

1 John 2.18 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

The Antichrist will cause the Church to experience what the Church has experienced from many Antichrists throughout the age, from ancient Rome to modern Christ-hating dictators. Suffering is suffering in all times, and can hardly be compared. To die is to die.

Antichrist will not, however, be world-wide in his domain, although he will be worshiped by some in all countries. He will appeal to the carnal interests of Man. Rather, his domain will consist of 10 nations of European origin, which is exactly what Dan 7 indicates. He will preside over the world's lone superpower, which will remain unchallenged for 1260 days.

After that time period, the nations will fall into chaos and Armageddon will result. We get a very bad idea when we misinterpret the "great tribulation," which Jesus meant to apply to the Jewish People as the very long period of their final punishment, encompassing the entire NT age.

 

[keras]

That's for the woman (Israel, that gave birth to the Messiah), not Christians.
Note that Satan becomes wrathful at not being able to destroy the woman, and then turns on a second group of people, identified as Christians.
There is nothing about those in Revelation 12:17 violating a covenant, in fact it's said they keep the commandments of God, and the testimony of Jesus Christ. So the ones that the Antichrist turns on after being unable to kill the Jews, are Christians.

This is where replacement theology fails, not seeing the difference between who gave birth to Messiah, and those that followed Jesus Christ, instead considering yourself as belonging to those who gave birth to Christ, rather than the second group, and inventing your own definition to get around what is clearly a different group.

That you are wrong is proved in Revelation 12:17...they maintain their witness to Jesus.
The use of 'woman' is allegorical for the Seed of Israel, that is Jesus and we Christians are the Plant He sowed and raised.

The other aspect is the fate of Judah.
It has been the usual Church teaching; we get 'raptured' and the Jews go thru Tribulation and finally accept their Messiah; Jesus.
This teaching is not what the Bible prophets say will happen. Over 20 prophesies tell of the virtual demise of the House of Judah and only a remnant will survive. They will rejoin with their brethren as per Ezekiel 37:15-22
Then in Ezekiel 37:25-28, we will receive the great Blessings of God to His faithful people.

That the people of God, now every faithful Christian, do get divided during the end times is clearly stated in Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2 and in Revelation 12.

 

[DavidPT]

That the people of God, now every faithful Christian, do get divided during the end times is clearly stated in Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2 and in Revelation 12.

I have never looked at it that way myself. I have to admit, you raise an interesting point here. Don't know if this makes you correct or not, but it certainly is an interesting point.

 

[keras]

I have never looked at it that way myself. I have to admit, you raise an interesting point here. Don't know if this makes you correct or not, but it certainly is an interesting point.

When the whole picture is understood; of how the Lord will clear and cleanse the holy Land and then His faithful Christian peoples will migrate to and live there, then prophesies like Isaiah 28:11-12 become clear.
It says how the leaders of the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, will agree to a 7 year peace treaty, a serious mistake.
As Daniel 9:27 prophesies. And in Daniel 11:32-35 shows the 2 divisions of the Christians; those who stood firm in their trust for the Lord's protection and those who violated the Covenant.

It is all a warning for us to keep our faith and to endure through all that must happen, until the end.

 

[Jamdoc]

The 144k are sealed. Does that mean they do not have to eat, but nourished and protected. The disciples of the first century walked through a field and ate as they were walking. Since they will be with Christ and just one lunch could feed 5000, how much would it take for Christ to feed 144k in the same manner? The angels will be on earth as well. After Jesus fasted, the angels brought Him food. It would seem that the camp of the saints are these 144k throughout this time. Are they Christians in the sense we accepted Christ, or are they Christians in the fact that God elected them for a certain purpose.

Any souls harvested for the kingdom are just that. The souls are removed from the physical body during the GT. That is the whole point of the GT, not physical survival. The GT is the complete eradication of Adam's flesh and blood. That is why it is the greatest trouble of all time. These harvested souls will either spend the next 1000 years in Death or reign with Christ on the earth. They are the firstfruits of the Millennial Kingdom. They also multiply and fill up the earth during the Millennium. Pain will only endure for this night of GT, but joy and blessings come in the morning and light of the Day of the Lord.

As for the 42 months during the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses, the 144k and Jesus Christ the Prince will not be on the earth. Only the 2 witnesses will be a thorn in the side of Satan's rule. Those wishing to be saved will have to have their head removed, to avoid the mark. The mark is the end of the line for Adam's flesh and blood. They are physically alive, but no longer in the Lamb's book of life.


Why some here think the church has to wonder in the wilderness of utter desolation between leaving Egypt (this) world and Paradise (in heaven) at the Second Coming is beyond me. Paul says those alive and remain are caught up to meet the Lord in the air. The Lord, not Jesus Christ. The Lord will be in Paradise during the Trumpets and Thunders. Jesus Christ the Prince will be on earth with His disciples, the 144k removing souls from bodies along with the angels. That is what Revelation 7 declares. The temple of God is Paradise with the Lord. There is not going to be years of wandering in this GT by any NT believer. Only those who reject Christ will be here trying to figure out how to survive. There is not even a guarantee they will choose to have their head removed to avoid the mark, or just embrace Satan with their whole heart. Most will die and end up in sheol or Death, the two soul harvesters mentioned in the 4th Seal. Billions are claimed to be killed even before the 6th Seal is opened.

Seeing as not many think the Seals have to be opened first, but in parallel with, and claim the antichrist comes prior to the 6th Seal. Seeing as how many do not think the Trumpets start sounding after the 7th Seal.

You all have figured out your own route through the GT other than what John wrote. I was one who liked looking at a map, and did not like to stop and ask for directions. In this case, people's opinions of how to navigate Revelation, seem pointless as no one here has lived through this time period. I am not missing out on a local's take of the road map. John, the only "local" already left all the instructions necessary.

The 144k are also descendents of specific tribes of Israel.
not gentile Christians.

 

[Jamdoc]

That you are wrong is proved in Revelation 12:17...they maintain their witness to Jesus.
The use of 'woman' is allegorical for the Seed of Israel, that is Jesus and we Christians are the Plant He sowed and raised.

The other aspect is the fate of Judah.
It has been the usual Church teaching; we get 'raptured' and the Jews go thru Tribulation and finally accept their Messiah; Jesus.
This teaching is not what the Bible prophets say will happen. Over 20 prophesies tell of the virtual demise of the House of Judah and only a remnant will survive. They will rejoin with their brethren as per Ezekiel 37:15-22
Then in Ezekiel 37:25-28, we will receive the great Blessings of God to His faithful people.

That the people of God, now every faithful Christian, do get divided during the end times is clearly stated in Daniel 11:32, Zechariah 14:2 and in Revelation 12.

Revelation distinguishes 2 groups that are attacked by Satan.
the first is the woman that gave birth to Jesus. Unless you believe that that's literally referring to Mary and she's being literally hunted down by Satan on Earth, it's a reference to the dream that Joseph had in Genesis where the 12 stars are the tribes of Israel. So it is Israel that is protected.

John makes no mention of provision for the disciples of Jesus Christ, which is the SECOND group that Satan turns on AFTER his attempt on Israel fails.

Revelation 12

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Israel produced the Messiah, not the Church, the Messiah produced the Church.

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

So the woman is protected when Satan tries to destroy it. They're provided for. The attempt to destroy the woman fails.

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This group is different, they aren't the same group, these are the remnant of the seed of the woman, the seed of the woman is of course, Jesus Christ. So the disciples of Jesus Christ, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, those are Christians. THAT is us, not the woman.

We're not being promised to be hid out in the wilderness and nourished.
what are we being promised?

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Some will be martyrs.

if we are flown out to somewhere to keep us safe and kept nourished, then how does the beast do this in Revelation 13?

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Christians are hunted down and killed, and are unable to buy and sell.
and there is a reason for this.
Because in being martyred, it gives testimony (as Revelation 12:11 points out)
The blood of the martyrs is the seeds of the Church it's been said.

Meanwhile Israel being protected is because they have yet to come to faith, if they joined Christians in dying to persecution they just go to Hell. Nothing is gained from them dying until they repent and come to Jesus.

Now what we are promised, is that Christians will not ALL die because Jesus will cut the Great Tribulation short.

Matthew 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

In other words before the Great Tribulation would be complete in killing all the Christians, Jesus comes back.

We're not promised to be nourished, we're just promised that not all of us will die. But many will, because there is a purpose to it.

It sure would be nice to be able to filter out Replacement Theologists along with the Preterists and Historicists to actually keep on a topic, because Replacement Theology is just as much of a poison as Preterism in this case.

If we can't agree that it is Christians in the first place who cannot buy or sell and are being martyred, it twists the topic away from its intent which is asking how these people eat and survive.

 

[keras]

It sure would be nice to be able to filter out Replacement Theologists along with the Preterists and Historicists to actually keep on a topic, because Replacement Theology is just as much of a poison as Preterism in this case.

Jesus has already replaced the Jews with the Christians. Matthew 21:43
We Christians are the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Isaiah 22:14

So; my belief about Christians during the final 3 1/2 years of this age, is that we will be divided into 2 groups. Those who totally relied on God to protect them during the Sixth Seal event and then the Great Trib, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. They will have proved their faith.
Those who agreed to a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the One World Govt, will be delivered into his power, as per Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 13:5-8

 

[Jamdoc]

Jesus has already replaced the Jews with the Christians. Matthew 21:43
We Christians are the Israelites of God. Galatians 6:14-16

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is nowhere to be found in the Bible. Isaiah 22:14

So; my belief about Christians during the final 3 1/2 years of this age, is that we will be divided into 2 groups. Those who totally relied on God to protect them during the Sixth Seal event and then the Great Trib, will be taken to a place of safety on earth. They will have proved their faith.
Those who agreed to a 7 year peace treaty with the leader of the One World Govt, will be delivered into his power, as per Daniel 7:23-25 and Revelation 13:5-8

Romans 11 is about that very thing, that Israel will be redeemed, and no he's not talking about replacement Israel he's talking about descendants of Jacob, the natural branches, not those grafted in.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

You right now, are being wise in your own conceits.

You're derailing the topic.

and you CONTINUE TO IGNORE WHAT REVELATION 12 PLAINLY STATES
THAT IT IS THE SECOND GROUP THAT HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST, NOT THE FIRST.

 

[Jamdoc]

I mean let's be clear.
the topic is about, the saints that Antichrist makes war against and overcomes.
They will not be able to buy or sell, and people will be actively looking for them.

Those desperate conditions might involve stealing to eat, and lying, or telling others to lie for you (which is still you lying), to evade capture. That is sinning to survive, and I am wondering if there's condemnation in that.

Preterists and Historicists won't address the topic because they think all that is in the past, so, I don't need them chiming in and derailing the topic.
I had to specify "tribulation saints" for the pretribulationists or they'll just say "we'll be gone", and will derail the topic, and fail to address it.
and I guess Replacement Theologists also derail the topic and fail to address the topic by deflecting into claiming they're the woman rather than the saints that the Antichrist makes war with and overcomes.
and of course Amillennialists will also derail the topic.

Pretty frustrating.

For context. Jews during the holocaust that were in hiding had to rely on either lying about their heritage, or rely on gentile families hiding them and lying about them to prevent them being captured. In fact Christian families had to lie about hiding Jewish families in their home to protect them, and I am wondering what God's position on that sort of thing is.

 

[keras]

Romans 11 is about that very thing, that Israel will be redeemed, and no he's not talking about replacement Israel he's talking about descendants of Jacob, the natural branches, not those grafted in.

As every human on earth today has at least some of Abraham's genes, your premise fails.
Who the people of God are now, since Jesus came; are the faithful Christians. All people, incl Jews; must be grafted into the Tree that is Jesus.
Those who arrogantly call themselves Israel, face Gods Judgment and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

 

[Jamdoc]

As every human on earth today has at least some of Abraham's genes, your premise fails.
Who the people of God are now, since Jesus came; are the faithful Christians. All people, incl Jews; must be grafted into the Tree that is Jesus.
Those who arrogantly call themselves Israel, face Gods Judgment and only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27

Yes, only a remnant survive, but that remnant are protected.
You're not the woman
You're those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
John made that distinction.
You refuse to
John made that distinction again in Revelation 7:3-8
You refuse to recognize it.

If John makes a distinction between the descendants of the 12 tribes of Israel (144,000) and the Gentiles who follow Jesus (a great multitude that no man could number)
then it's important to recognize that difference.

Instead you invent your own definition of how the second group is bad because they violated the covenant with God
which is absurd and is not in the text at all.
It's pure Eisegesis

Please stop derailing the thread.

 

[Timtofly]

If we can't agree that it is Christians in the first place who cannot buy or sell and are being martyred, it twists the topic away from its intent which is asking how these people eat and survive.

The mark is not during the Trumpets and Thunders. The mark only happens if the 7th Trumpet is cut in half and extended for the 42 months to allow for the mark to even happen.

The trouble of this time is death itself. Billions will die, even before the 7th Trumpet sounds.

 

[Jamdoc]

The mark is not during the Trumpets and Thunders. The mark only happens if the 7th Trumpet is cut in half and extended for the 42 months to allow for the mark to even happen.

The trouble of this time is death itself. Billions will die, even before the 7th Trumpet sounds.

Yeah once again, nobody understands your bizarre interpretations.

 

[Acts29]

Whether you believe that they will be second class citizens of heaven, the "tribulation saints" or whatever, there will be people who are saved who have to live during the worst persecution that the planet will ever see, and never see again.

During this time, they will not be able to buy food, and will likely be actively hunted to be put to death.

So.. is it then still condemned if they have to steal to eat, being that there is no lawful way for them to acquire food (and remember, poaching is still stealing and illegal)? Would it be condemned if they have to lie about who they are (think Jews during the holocaust, or the people that hid them from the Nazis)? They're going to be on the run so they may not be able to grow their own food, and anything they may have stashed away for such a time they may have to leave behind to escape (Remember, Jesus told those in Judea to just flee, and specifically told them NOT to return to the house to gather things.. just flee with the clothes on your back into the wilderness, Matthew 24:15-18)

Outside of God giving them manna from heaven, I am wondering if they will have to willingly starve to death (in a sense suicide) in order to avoid sinning?

They will tested unto death for sure. The sign of Job is for them and few will survive. They will be cast into the fiery furnace but Jesus will protect them, the sign of Daniel 3. The beast will try to drown them in the sea but Jesus will part the waters, (Can't recall scripture at the moment.) Finally, he will behead them in mass. These people will be the first to be resurrected, as the last shall be first.

Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.” 20:4 ... Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ... This is the first resurrection.

The church in Philadelphia is the only place of refuge during this time.
Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

To answer your question, stealing food is not a sin in such dire circumstances, imo. However, Jesus will not leave them alone to starve. That wouldn't be the proper test for that time. The test is whether they choose Jesus or the Beast. The must be beheaded. Jesus will feed them.
Jesus spoke as part of the "You can't server two masters - Don't worry" end time teaching:

Matthew 6:31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

 

[Jamdoc]

They will tested unto death for sure. The sign of Job is for them and few will survive. They will be cast into the fiery furnace but Jesus will protect them, the sign of Daniel 3. The beast will try to drown them in the sea but Jesus will part the waters, (Can't recall scripture at the moment.)

That'd be Revelation 12:13-16 but I'm pretty sure that's Israel rather than the Church or "Tribulation Saints" That's the woman that produced the Messiah, so Israel.
It's the group that Satan targets after the attempt to wipe out the woman fails that is in question, specifically.
They're specifically Christian in Revelation 12:17, and are referred to as saints in Revelation 13 and 14.
Daniel 7 and 8 refer to this too, the Antichrist's war on the saints.

Finally, he will behead them in mass. These people will be the first to be resurrected, as the last shall be first.

Yeah it's obvious and in scripture that some will be caught and executed, it's referred to in Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:15, and Revelation 20:4
Those that are caught and threatened with death.. well, Jesus says be faithful unto death.

But for those on the run, unable to buy and sell I'm wondering.. steal to survive, or, is being faithful unto death including willingly starving even if opportunity to steal food presents itself. Is that "seeking to save one's life" and then losing it as in Matthew 16:25?
I mean it's obvious that if you're faithful into being martyred, that's producing a witness so there is profit to it, it converts people to see someone believe something so strongly they die for it.
But if you starve to death in the wilderness, it's not really producing a witness, so I wonder about that, would God rather a person starve alone, or steal, get caught and then be a witness in martyrdom?

Revelation 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.” 20:4 ... Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. ... This is the first resurrection.

The church in Philadelphia is the only place of refuge during this time.
Revelation 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

I'm wondering how you come to this conclusion, and I mean, I certainly don't see it as being a physical Church in the US City of Philadelphia. Obviously the letter was written to the Philadelphia in Asia Minor in the first century, but applications of that letter I think are to the church in the end times. Is it a church type that would be a refuge?

To answer your question, stealing food is not a sin in such dire circumstances, imo. However, Jesus will not leave them alone to starve. That wouldn't be the proper test for that time. The test is whether they choose Jesus or the Beast. The must be beheaded. Jesus will feed them.
Jesus spoke as part of the "You can't server two masters - Don't worry" end time teaching:

Matthew 6:31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

This is a good concept I suppose. I was just thinking about the Holocaust and how people had to survive and it's a common trope in any kinda "end of the world" fiction that people end up having to steal and scavenge to survive a lot.

I guess if we were to find ourselves in some situation like that, that God will not allow us to be tempted more than we can bear and will provide an escape.

1 Corinthians 10

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Starving to death would certainly be tempting someone above what someone's able to bear, especially if the opportunity to steal and eat would probably present itself.

 

[Acts29]

That'd be Revelation 12:13-16 but I'm pretty sure that's Israel rather than the Church or "Tribulation Saints" That's the woman that produced the Messiah, so Israel.
It's the group that Satan targets after the attempt to wipe out the woman fails that is in question, specifically.
They're specifically Christian in Revelation 12:17, and are referred to as saints in Revelation 13 and 14.
Daniel 7 and 8 refer to this too, the Antichrist's war on the saints.

I'm not sure I follow you exactly so I'm not sure this will help clarify my point.
In the 7th Trumpet, which is Revelation 12, the elect (Israel) are gathered. Then Satan goes after the rest of those who have the testimony of Jesus (the church). After the 7th Trumpet is when sat Satan attacks the church. Revelation 13, the beasts, come after the 7th Trumpet gathering of Israel. THEN the greatest tribulation that ever was, or ever shall be, shall befall those Gentile believers. The 3 Hebrew children in Daniel 3 are called by Gentile names in the scripture because it is a sign for Gentile believers at the end to not worship the beast or his image.

Daniel 12:1 “At that time Michael shall stand up, [<Rev 12] The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book.

Yeah it's obvious and in scripture that some will be caught and executed, it's referred to in Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 12:11, Revelation 13:15, and Revelation 20:4 Those that are caught and threatened with death.. well, Jesus says be faithful unto death.

But for those on the run, unable to buy and sell I'm wondering.. steal to survive, or, is being faithful unto death including willingly starving even if opportunity to steal food presents itself. Is that "seeking to save one's life" and then losing it as in Matthew 16:25?
I mean it's obvious that if you're faithful into being martyred, that's producing a witness so there is profit to it, it converts people to see someone believe something so strongly they die for it.
But if you starve to death in the wilderness, it's not really producing a witness, so I wonder about that, would God rather a person starve alone, or steal, get caught and then be a witness in martyrdom?

I think Jesus will help them with food and clothing, but I'm sure death will come in every kind of way during that time. Jesus isn't cruel and heartless so I'm sure if they steal a crust of bread they aren't going to hell over it.

I'm wondering how you come to this conclusion, and I mean, I certainly don't see it as being a physical Church in the US City of Philadelphia. Obviously the letter was written to the Philadelphia in Asia Minor in the first century, but applications of that letter I think are to the church in the end times. Is it a church type that would be a refuge?

My understanding here is not with the mainstream. The letters to the churches in Revelation have absolutely nothing to do with the ancient churches in Asia. Those churches do not yet exist, but they will. If you read them carefully Jesus speaks to them as if they know He is about to come and He makes promises to them. For example:
Revelation 2:25 But hold fast what you have till I come.
If this was about the ancient churches, why did Jesus make them a promise to hold fast until I come if He knew good and well that church would be long gone before He came? He would never make a promise that would fail.
Therefore, the church in Philadelphia Asia, that will exist during the time of the most severe testing the world has ever known and it is the only safe haven.