Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Hmm

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We are not dealing with a Big Daddy in the sky.

I found that remark patronising tbh. Jesus taught us to call God "Abba" which means "Daddy". And no, I don't think He's big and size and resides in the sky. This is meant to be a respectful discussion.

If you prefer to see Him as an angry figure, that's up to you of course, but I and many other Christians don't.
 
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Andrewn

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As I mentioned earlier, Metropolitan Hierotheos has captured well both why people mistake Gregory of Nyssa's views as well as what his views are in his synopsis of Gregory's views of hell.
What do you think of the paragraph before the last where Metropolitan Hierotheos says,

"The punishing fire, as we have indicated, according to the teaching of St. Gregory of Nyssa, is uncreated and unending. It is the grace of God, which will purify and sanctify man increasingly, since perfection is unending, as he himself teaches. In this case he speaks of a purifying fire for the righteous."

Doesn't this indicate a progression after death rather than the commonly upheld, almost static, view?
 
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Der Alte

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What do you think of the paragraph before the last where Metropolitan Hierotheos says,
"The punishing fire, as we have indicated, according to the teaching of St. Gregory of Nyssa, is uncreated and unending. It is the grace of God, which will purify and sanctify man increasingly, since perfection is unending, as he himself teaches. In this case he speaks of a purifying fire for the righteous."
Doesn't this indicate a progression after death rather than the commonly upheld, almost static, view?
Did Gregory provide any scriptures to support these views?
 
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Carl Emerson

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I found that remark patronising tbh. Jesus taught us to call God "Abba" which means "Daddy". And no, I don't think He's big and size and resides in the sky. This is meant to be a respectful discussion.

If you prefer to see Him as an angry figure, that's up to you of course, but I and many other Christians don't.

Nor do I - you have misunderstood me...

Consider this...
The Ten Commandments
20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

So as I previously stated the face of God is indeed Kind towards those in salvation but Wrath against those who reject His Love.

Sorry if this offends you but this is central to His nature as a Jealous God.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Yes, I agree, the heart of the Gospel is in the Power of the Cross.
So, why would God limit the application to only a few while he incinerates the rest for all eternity? Thus making the "Power of the Cross" ineffective for the majority. (and at such tremendous expense) Who is the winner in that scenario? (sin)

James 2:13 NIV
... Mercy triumphs over judgment.

For those who are in salvation- yes...

We cant just ignore the clear statement about the character of God recorded on the tablet given to Moses.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
 
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Der Alte

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I believe you've got this the wrong way round: it's not a central issue to the universalist argument but it is to the infernalist case. The reason this particular translation error is discussed so much is that to infernalists, the facts that the phrase "eternal punishment" appears in most English Bibles is proof of ECT. What other argument can be made other than pointing out that this is a simple translation error?
I don't have this backwards if I just cited the issue as not pertaining to English, but to the translation process that is undertaken in order to extract the meanings of ideas that are embedded in the words of ancient Hebrew and Greek.
Sure, some folks here who ONLY read English can be cited by you as only landing on eternal punishment because of the translation they find in their respectively chosen English Bibles, and they think that is proof. (I don't; and you don't, but they do).
But it seems to me that the reality is that the "Bible" is really an ancient document that needs to be handled comprehensively rather than piecemealed through personal eisegesis via English.
The UR argument against "eternal punishment/ECT" can be condensed into this "God is good. I think that ECT is horrible and a good God would not do that. Ergo ECT is wrong."
If one were genuinely interested in the correct translation of "eternal,""punishment" and other contested words in the Bible I think it would behoove them to see how those words are translated in the 1917 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] for Hebrew and the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB] both of which are available free online.
The JPS was translated by native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars.
The EOB was translated by native Greek speaking Greek scholars.
https://jps.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Tanakh1917.pdf

http://fortsmithorthodox.org/NEW TESTAMENT.pdf

But be prepared to have your assumptions/presuppositions disproved.
 
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Hmm

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Nor do I - you have misunderstood me...

Consider this...
The Ten Commandments
20 Then God spoke all these words, saying,

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before Me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

So as I previously stated the face of God is indeed Kind towards those in salvation but Wrath against those who reject His Love.

Sorry if this offends you but this is central to His nature as a Jealous God.

It doesn't offend me. I just don't agree with your interpretation.
 
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Saint Steven

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We cant just ignore the clear statement about the character of God recorded on the tablet given to Moses.
It looks like the blessing outruns the curse.

Carl Emerson said:
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.
 
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Fervent

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What do you think of the paragraph before the last where Metropolitan Hierotheos says,

"The punishing fire, as we have indicated, according to the teaching of St. Gregory of Nyssa, is uncreated and unending. It is the grace of God, which will purify and sanctify man increasingly, since perfection is unending, as he himself teaches. In this case he speaks of a purifying fire for the righteous."

Doesn't this indicate a progression after death rather than the commonly upheld, almost static, view?
This is actually common in Eastern theologies, as the refining work is seen to be never ending even after death. There is no sudden transition from our current, marred selves into an image of perfection but the progress we make in this life towards perfection continues in the next. Hell and heaven are generally seen not so much as places, but dispositions towards being in the presence of God with the response depending upon the will of the individual. The unending fire effects each in different ways, purifying both either into the imago dei placed in them or the sin that they cling to.

I am certainly not an advocate of the typical view of hell in the West which comes more from medeival speculation than from Biblical texts.
 
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Der Alte

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* * * I am certainly not an advocate of the typical view of hell in the West which comes more from medeival speculation than from Biblical texts.
Some folks argue that the Christian concept of hell was copied from Dante's Inferno. But 14 centuries earlier in Israel before and during the time of Jesus, there was a belief in a place of eternal, unending fiery punishment which they called both "sheol" and "Ge Hinnom."
…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews,
Below are quotes from three credible Jewish sources; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been refuted.
…..According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not alter or disprove anything in the following post.
[1]1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]​
[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
= = = = = = = = = =
[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
= = = = = = = = = =
[3]pre-Christianity Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
When Jesus taught e.g.,
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​
…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?

You might also be interested in my research on Gehenna. There never was a constantly burning fire for burning anything in the valley of Gehenna.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage




.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It looks like the blessing outruns the curse.

Carl Emerson said:
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

For the saved in Christ, yes - for them only the Curse of the Law is defeated.
 
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Hmm

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Can you kindly explain your interpretation of Ex 20:4 please.

I assume you mean Ex 20:5-6 because those are the verses you highlighted and v4 doesn't seem relevant to your argument:

4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them nor serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, inflicting the punishment of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing favor to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

It doesn't mean that God has favourites as you are maintaining because that is not the God we see in Christ who befriended tax inspectors and prostitutes.

I think it's saying that children are not guilty of the sin of the parent, but they do feel the effects of the guilty parent in their life. Just to take a real life illustration, if your father was a criminal and this became public knowledgeable you would suffer from the social stigma involved. God isn't punishing the child because of the sin of a parent but he/she suffered nonetheless. And before you say this is sentimental universalist stuff, the Easter Orthodox church also doesn't teach the doctrine of Original Sin, having the concept of Ancestral Sin instead. It is always the Individual who is being guilty of sin that is punished in accordance to that sin.

Looking at verse 6, I believe this is saying that a righteous person blesses his/her children by that righteousness and that this blessing continues many generations down. Both verses are saying that the consequences of the parent’s sin or love are passed down through the generations.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I assume you mean Ex 20:5-6 because those are the verses you highlighted and v4 doesn't seem relevant to your argument:



It doesn't mean that God has favourites as you are maintaining because that is not the God we see in Christ who befriended tax inspectors and prostitutes.

I think it's saying that children are not guilty of the sin of the parent, but they do feel the effects of the guilty parent in their life. Just to take a real life illustration, if your father was a criminal and this became public knowledgeable you would suffer from the social stigma involved. God isn't punishing the child because of the sin of a parent but he/she suffered nonetheless. And before you say this is sentimental universalist stuff, the Easter Orthodox church also doesn't teach the doctrine of Original Sin, having the concept of Ancestral Sin instead. It is always the Individual who is being guilty of sin that is punished in accordance to that sin.

Looking at verse 6, I believe this is saying that a righteous person blesses his/her children by that righteousness and that this blessing continues many generations down. Both verses are saying that the consequences of the parent’s sin or love are passed down through the generations.

Are you claiming that Wrath is not part of God's character when it is referred to scores of times in scripture?
 
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Hmm

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Are you claiming that Wrath is not part of God's character when it is referred to scores of times in scripture?

No, I'm saying God's character can't be divided up into an opposing wrathful and a merciful side. They are both aspects of his loving nature.

Scripture shows this because His wrath is always followed by His mercy. This is shown in the OT by God's covenental faithfulness to Israel. Israel was often disobedient incurring God's displeasure and having to learn the long hard way but still in the end God was their Saviour. And it's also shown in these verses:

Psa 99:8 O LORD our God; You were to them God-Who-Forgives, THOUGH You took vengeance on their deeds.

Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, YET He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.

Isa 54:8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

Isa 60:10b For in My wrath I struck you, but in My favor I have had mercy on you.

Jer 10:24 O LORD, correct me, but with justice; not in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.

Are you saying that God is ever wrathful in a non-merciful and non-loving way as we humans often are? Where's the scripture that supports that?
 
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Carl Emerson

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If this scripture only applies to the saved, then we are claiming that all these things CAN separate us from the love of God.

Whoa... right there...

The reverse is true...

Would you like to explain your 'logic' please.
 
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Ceallaigh

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[Trip down memory lane omitted] * * * And any evangelism or "missions efforts were to save the lost and ultimately rescue them from certain hell. But the hell aspect was never out front. And in fact was just an uncomfortable reality that came with all the other blessings associated with the faith. So, our faith survives just fine without ECT. It was never a primary element anyway.
As far as that goes, the difficult aspect for me, and still somewhat of an issue, is what this means in terms of the reliability of the bible. If the damnation texts are wrong, what else is wrong? And if anything is wrong, does the whole book go in the rubbish bin? (to use the British term)
In reality, the ECT texts are not the only areas of questionable translation issues. And there are other questions about authorship, inspiration and inerrancy. Not to mention questions of literal or figurative interpretations, and comparisons with science and archaeology and history. Which all point to questions about what this book is, and what we are supposed to do with it. (see Peter Enns)
It seems that my changed views on the final judgment and UR, are only the tip of the iceberg. (as compared with my religious upbringing which was based on a view of inspiration and inerrancy) And most disturbingly, I find myself more in alignment with atheists than Christians on some biblical issues. Say what? (ouch)"
If one was truly concerned about the "correct translation" of the scriptures IMHO the worst place to look for a "correct translation" would be anything written or endorsed by one's own denomination.
If, e.g., one wants a correct translation of the OT who better than the translation by native Hebrew speaking scholars i.e. 1917 Jewish Publication Society.
And for the NT, Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church for over 2000 years. Who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know the correct translation.
Both versions are available online free. There is never any excuse to say "mistranslation" and choose one that just happens to support one's own assumptions/presuppositions as virtually all heterodox groups do. Present company not excluded.
Another pet peeve of mine is when folks just happen to get a "divine revelation" e.g. JW, LDS, OP, UPCI, WWCG, INC etc., which also just happens to support their assumptions/presuppositions.
So many "divine revelations" out there they can't all be right but they can all be wrong.

Bit of a false equivalency there. Christian UR isn't a denomination or denomination spacific. Christians who believe in UR or consider it a possibility are EO, RCC, and Protestant denominations across the board. It's simply a Christian theology that doesn't even pertain to Christians themselves.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Scripture shows this because His wrath is always followed by His mercy.

Not so according to Paul...

See Rom 9:22-23

However I think you enjoy the challenge of defending your position and I don't agree with your conclusions. Der Alte has presented a comprehensive case refuting your position but you insist.

It seems that presenting scripture is not going to cut it - your mind is made up it seems.
 
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Ceallaigh

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Not so according to Paul...

See Rom 9:22-23

However I think you enjoy the challenge of defending your position and I don't agree with your conclusions. Der Alte has presented a comprehensive case refuting your position but you insist.

It seems that presenting scripture is not going to cut it - your mind is made up it seems.

Romans 9:22-23 appears to be a hypothetical scenario.

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—
 
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