Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

[Hmm]

Here is something the UR high priestess Ilaria Ramelli said which is absolutely false.

Can you never resist ad hominems?

Here is what Origen actually said.
Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
...
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23"
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.

Funny, a quick Google search confirms that Ramelli quoted Origen correctly:

"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.” (Origen’s Commentary on John 13:19).
Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:

Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32

couple of years ago some UR sprang this on me on this forum so I had to shell out $60 to buy it.

I'd ask for my money back then. They must have seen you coming comrade.

 

[Der Alte]

Can you never resist ad hominems?
Funny, a quick Google search confirms that Ramelli quoted Origen correctly:

"And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.” (Origen’s Commentary on John 13:19).
Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32, By Origen [page 73]:Commentary on the Gospel According to John, Books 13-32​

I'd ask for my money back then. They must have seen you coming comrade.

Wrong! You quoted exactly what I posted and you still can't get it right. I guess the high priestess of UR Ilaria Ramelli has all her followers under a spell.
In this quote Origen is referring to Joh 4:14

John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.​

Here is what Ramelli said.

"But even the aiónes will come to an end, Origen tells us: “After aiónios life a leap will take place and all will pass from the aeons to the Father, who is beyond aiónios life. For Christ is Life, but the Father, who is ‘greater than Christ,’ is greater than life” (Comm. in Io 13.3; quoted in Ramelli, p. 160)."
Sometimes Eternity Ain’t Forever: Aiónios and the Universalist Hope​

Where does Origen say,

“After aiónios life a leap will take place and all will pass from the aeons to the Father, who is beyond aiónios life.?​

Some of the words Ramelli writes are the same but try reading what Origen wrote "in context."

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it [the fountain NOT people] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

What leaps in vs. 18? It is not people it is the fountain. And in vs. 19 it is still the fountain that leaps NOT people. And the fountain leaping into the father is not definite but "perhaps."
Is there any scripture which says people will leap into the Father after eternal life?
Also Origen does NOT say "all will pass from the aeons to the Father." Only the fountain is mentioned.
Ramelli also said "even the aiónes will come to an end." Here is what Origen said about "aion".

(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[1] Pg. 80
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 81–82). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

Aionios life "is not taken away,""never perishes,twice ""remains,""is not consumed."

 

[Hmm]

You quoted exactly what I posted and you still can't get it right.

I quoted Ramelli with the correct source that she gave. You quoted what you claimed was same source but it was something to do with fountains leaping and was incorrect.

I guess the high priestess of UR Ilaria Ramelli has all her followers under a spell.

I don't like communicating with someone who is so disrespectful towards others, especially towards women, so this very silly exchange is at an end.

 

[Der Alte]

I quoted Ramelli with the correct source that she gave. You quoted what you claimed was same source but it was something to do with fountains leaping and was incorrect.
I don't like communicating with someone who is so disrespectful towards others, especially towards women, so this very silly exchange is at an end.

You did what I expected you might do. You quoted the same part of one paragraph Ramelli quoted. I also quoted the previous paragraph which together with the partial you quoted showed the correct context. Please note the paragraph numbers

Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press.​

Please pay attention. What is leaping in vs.18:? Is it people or only the fountain?
What is leaping in vs. 19, is it people? It says "after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life." What is the "it" this refers back to? If "it" referred to people it would read "perhaps they will also leap." But it does not say that. "It" refers back to "fountain" vs. 18. Ramelli knew that but she flat out lied.

 

[Fervent]

More silliness. We are not in a personal discussion. We would do that via the Conversation feature. This is a member forum and that means if you have supporting evidence for your views that you wish to be discussed then you'll need to post it to the forum so that everyone can see it and can contribute if they so wish.

I've posted the research findings from Ramelli that I wished to bring up. If you have refuting evidence that you wish to discuss then obviously you'll have to post it too. Not much point saying you have a ball but you're not going to let anyone see it.

Again, you're posting the conclusions of others and you completely don't seem to understand what I am stressing. Scholarly research is support for arguments, using it as a primary argument(particularly when it is someone who is ideologically driven, as Ramelli seeking historical support for her theological predilictions) is not legitimate. I have told you the exact work where you can read, in context, Gregory of Nyssa affirming that hell is an unquenchable fire and citing the worm that consumes man eternally. Now, I am not simply producing quotes devoid of the context they are in because I view that as a supremely bad habit and I will not engage in it. I've told you which work so you can go and read for yourself, I'd give you page numbers for indexing as well if they were indexed as they are. I've also given you, and previously linked you to the section of a book written by Metropolitan Hierothomos(an expert on patristic writings) in which he discusses Gregory's view of hell in depth, presenting both text fragments and the historical context. Your feigning as if I am providing some vague description simply because I will not engage in your poor practices when I have given explicit citations and references for you to delve into and yet you simply try to counter with motivated "scholars" conclusions without even engaging with the primary sources themselves demonstrates you're not interested in what Gregory of Nyssa says unless it is to prop up your pre-determined theologies.

 

[Fervent]

It’s a very VERY special ball. An invisible ball. However, if you read this whole encyclopaedia Britannica, not skim reading or cherry picking its content, you’ll find the glorious heavenly secret of my secret special ball. Now, do your own homework! I’ve told you where to look.

Right, cause historic documents are totally the same thing as condensed reference books, and require no internal context to understand. What I have given, reference wise, is more than sufficient if Hmm is actually interested in Gregory of Nyssa's positions, rather than what Hmm can make Gregory of Nyssa say. Either doing the leg work himself, in reading the primary documents, or in the synopsis and examination given by the scholar of Patrisics I referenced.

 

[lismore]

What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? .

Take for example a young woman who was raped and murdered. The thought of her spending eternity walking the streets of gold with her unrepentant rapist and murderer walking the same streets. That is why separating the righteous from the wicked is a necessary act of love and wisdom. God Bless

 

[Hmm]

Take for example a young woman who was raped and murdered. The thought of her spending eternity walking the streets of gold with her unrepentant rapist and murderer walking the same streets. That is why separating the righteous from the wicked is a necessary act of love and wisdom. God Bless

Separation until repentence, yes. That's what hell is for. Everyone, even a rapist or a murderer like Paul, will repent when they clearly see Jesus.

 

[Hmm]

Here's an interesting personal description of the grip ECT had on the mind of a guy who moved from an infernalist to a universalist position via annihilationism, which is a common route in the testimonies I've read. It helps explain why a belief in ECT makes it so hard to even discuss universalism without seeing it as a game of dodgeball where you have to duck and weave to avoid letting anything touch you:

"I see ECT as a mind-virus. Its is so toxic because it insulates itself against any counter-idea that might cure it. Before I could even read about Universalism without immediately rejecting it, it took me years of trying to make Annihilationism work. And that was after years of feeling dissatisfied with ECT, and actively studying the scriptures to reconcile my beliefs. ECT doesn't let go of its host easily or quietly."

 

[lismore]

Separation until repentence, yes. That's what hell is for. Everyone, even a rapist or a murderer like Paul, will repent when they clearly see Jesus.

It didn't happen the first time, people clearly saw Jesus and rejected him.

 

[Hmm]

It didn't happen the first time, people clearly saw Jesus and rejected him.

Not clearly enough then. Do you think that anyone who realises how much God loves them and how their true happiness lies in being with him would reject him? We are all made with a God-shaped hole inside us and deep down want it to be filled.

 

[lismore]

Not clearly enough then. Do you think that anyone who realises how much God loves them and how their true happiness lies in being with him would reject him?

Yes!

The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it? (Jeremiah 17:9)

We are all made with a God-shaped hole inside us and deep down want it to be filled.

Where does this thought come from? God Bless

 

[Der Alte]

Here's an interesting personal description of the grip ECT had on the mind of a guy who moved from an infernalist to a universalist position via annihilationism, which is a common route in the testimonies I've read. It helps explain why a belief in ECT makes it so hard to even discuss universalism without seeing it as a game of dodgeball where you have to duck and weave to avoid letting anything touch you:
"I see ECT as a mind-virus. Its is so toxic because it insulates itself against any counter-idea that might cure it. Before I could even read about Universalism without immediately rejecting it, it took me years of trying to make Annihilationism work. And that was after years of feeling dissatisfied with ECT, and actively studying the scriptures to reconcile my beliefs. ECT doesn't let go of its host easily or quietly."

Sounds like the Leroy Jethro Gibbs method of Bible interpretation, "Go with your gut. If your 'gut' tells you it's wrong, then it must be wrong."
.....It would be wonderful if all mankind will be saved, the righteous and unrighteous alike, even after death. But there is no scripture which unequivocally says that.
I have often asked for a clear statement from the Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, stating that everyone will be saved. Crickets.
I could quote scripture, which I have before, but it would either be ignored or various arguments claiming the scripture do not say what I think they say.
But I would be remiss if I did not tell you what Jesus said.

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting αιωνιον] life.​

In these two vss. Jesus paralleled "aionios" with "should not perish." So by definition aionios means eternal.

Matthew 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting [αιωνιον] punishment:[κολασιν] but the righteous into life eternal.[αιωνιον]​

We see from John 3:15-16 definitely means "eternal." Some folks claim that κολασιν/kolasin does not mean "punishment" but correction, pruning and other silly stuff.
This word "kolasis" occurs one other time in the NT. 1 Jn 4:18

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.​

The one who has "kolasis" is not made perfect i.e. is not corrected.

 

[Hmm]

Where does this thought come from?

It's a well known image in the Christian community but I've no idea if it's scriptually based if that's what you're asking.

 

[eleos1954]

That's ironic.
The "lost" parables are all UR texts. The lost are found.
And the lost and found is the framework of UR.

The lost are the unsaved .... the found are the saved. We are all lost ... until we are found ;o)

 

[eleos1954]

Aren't you accusing God of incinerating live humans?

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Some choose otherwise.

Matthew 13:30

Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’”

Ezekiel 18:20
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap.

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” ...

Describing the day of the Lord, when all traces of sin will be eliminated, Peter said, "The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).

The fire that destroys the wicked purifies the earth from the pollution of sin. Out of the ruins of this earth God will bring "a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away" (Rev. 21:1). From this cleansed, re-created earth—the eternal home of the redeemed—God will forever banish mourning, pain, and death (Rev. 21:4). Finally the curse sin brought will have been lifted/eliminated (Rev. 22:3).

 

[Saint Steven]

The lost are the unsaved .... the found are the saved. We are all lost ... until we are found ;o)

I would say the "lost" are currently unsaved. There is always hope.
If you are like me, you were lost before you were saved.

 

[Saint Steven]

... God will forever banish mourning, pain, and death...

I hope you don't believe in a forever burning hell.
So much for banishing "mourning, pain, and death..."

 

[eleos1954]

I would say the "lost" are currently unsaved. There is always hope.
If you are like me, you were lost before you were saved.

we are all lost until we are saved ;o) and yes Jesus is our great hope.

1 Peter 1:3-6

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you rejoice, though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been grieved by various trials, so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Amen!

 

[eleos1954]

I hope you don't believe in a forever burning hell.
So much for banishing "mourning, pain, and death..."

The wicked will be destroyed. Hell is the grave ..... all sleep a dormant sleep there until Jesus returns then the 1st resurrection happens (of the saved) later the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) happens.

No such thing as a forever burning place.