If evolution is true

[Shemjaza]

So, it sounds like you're also saying that what we see is not necessarily what we measure.

In an absolute sense, no.

But implying a lack of certainty removes any ability to understand and interpret evidence is unjustified.

If I find some old tracks in the ground and I can't tell for sure if it's a big deer, a moose or maybe even a donkey... that uncertainty doesn't mean I can fall back on: "No one can know for sure, I think it's a house cat.".

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

No my argument is based on God being our creator.

I refer you to your #281 and similar previous posts. I even explained your misunderstanding.

 

[tas8831]

No my argument is based on God being our creator.

The Fallacy of Begging the Question is so awesome. Only the most intelligent and mature rely on it to prop up their supernatural beliefs.

 

[tas8831]

.. it seems to me God is shouting to you.

Yahweh? Or one of the other deities that Yahweh implies he was in competition with in the first Commandment? Or maybe Zeus or Osiris?

 

[Estrid]

The Fallacy of Begging the Question is so awesome. Only the most intelligent and mature rely on it to prop up their supernatural beliefs.

Same with snark?

 

[Estrid]

Yahweh? Or one of the other deities that Yahweh implies he was in competition with in the first Commandment? Or maybe Zeus or Osiris?

I'm reminded of the girl with whom I was walking across campus one fine fall day in America.

A nice leaf fell at out feet.

Oh look, she says. A message from God, it symbolizes
the Trinity!

I say-
Why then does it have five parts? See these two smaller ones?

Her response-
Oh then God made it to represent the Pentarch.

 

[tas8831]

I'm reminded of the girl with whom I was walking across campus one fine fall day in America.

A nice leaf fell at out feet.

Oh look, she says. A message from God, it symbolizes
the Trinity!

I say-
Why then does it have five parts? See these two smaller ones?

Her response-
Oh then God made it to represent the Pentarch.

Always a cop out.... Or a diversion, or whatever that is called.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Always a cop out.... Or a diversion, or whatever that is called.

It's a form of confirmation bias; but more generally, the ancient superstitious habit of reading signs in everyday events (omens, etc). Before monotheistic religion, I imagine it would have been revealing the disposition of spirits, luck, fate, or the gods in general (black cats, four-leaf clover, etc).

 

[SkyWriting]

First, let me make a statement, before I present my question. I understand very well that once the seed of ‘with enough time there is no limit to the amount of change possible’ is accepted… then it’s macroevolution hook, line and sinker. Ok, I get it.

Let’s forgo the goo to lower animal argument, no need to even go there. For argument sake, we’ll just say ‘if’ it did happen. What I’m wondering is what ever influenced us to even consider living outside the ‘wilds’, when every natural instinct is contrary to it. I mean increased brain capacity would be like ‘I need to make the jungle or savannah more comfortable.’ And, yes, I understand the hunter/gatherer and farmer transition (but only as humans).

I just can’t see a lot of ‘I don’t like this wild atmosphere at all, so I’m going to try another lifestyle altogether.’ I understand the concept of gradual change over time (micro level of course), and following and adapting to a food supply and even conditions to a point, but progressively changing from a lower animal natural lifestyle in the ‘wilds,’ to a human one outside the wilds… well, help me understand (please, no this is how evolution works) how you think this could possibly happen, regardless of the time involved?

Psilocybin mushrooms
have been considered as a possible source of change. Many people consider their use as "one of the most significant events of their life". And such mushrooms are common in the wild. The ingestion of these mushrooms can change a persons perspective and get them "outside of their head". And the "events" are very memorable, unlike alcohol which results in hazy memories.

Navy SEAL On Psilocybin Therapy: 'It Absolutely Changed My ..

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Psilocybin mushrooms
have been considered as a possible source of change. Many people consider their use as "one of the most significant events of their life". And such mushrooms are common in the wild. The ingestion of these mushrooms can change a persons perspective and get them "outside of their head". And the "events" are very memorable, unlike alcohol which results in hazy memories.

Navy SEAL On Psilocybin Therapy: 'It Absolutely Changed My ..

What does that have to do with the question if evolution is true or not?

 

[Estrid]

It's a form of confirmation bias; but more generally, the ancient superstitious habit of reading signs in everyday events (omens, etc). Before monotheistic religion, I imagine it would have been revealing the disposition of spirits, luck, fate, or the gods in general (black cats, four-leaf clover, etc).

You could go nuts trying to learn all the gods and omens
of traditional Chinese beliefs.

 

[SkyWriting]

What does that have to do with the question if evolution is true or not?

There was no such question. I was replying to the OP.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

There was no such question. I was replying to the OP.

How does an article about psychedelic mushrooms have anything to do with evolution?

 

[inquiring mind]

I did think about it - and my explanation is what physicists and cosmologists who work in this area are saying.

The "you're never going to understand" gambit is a common but lame believer's ploy. If you think you understand it, you should be able to explain it to me. As the old saying goes, "If you can't explain it to [a 6 year-old/your grandma/an undergraduate], you don't understand it yourself."

Well here you go then, I'll use your own words:
"Physical laws are descriptive not prescriptive. What 'physical laws break down' means is that our normal mathematical descriptions of what is happening no longer work. IOW, our model of how the universe works fails to describe that regime. We just need a better model.

An analogy would be if you had a speed gun that measured up to 100 mph and a car went past at 150 mph. For an analogue gun, the needle would hit the stop at '100 mph', for a digital gun you'd get an 'Out of range' error message."

 

[VirOptimus]

Well here you go then, I'll use your own words:
"Physical laws are descriptive not prescriptive. What 'physical laws break down' means is that our normal mathematical descriptions of what is happening no longer work. IOW, our model of how the universe works fails to describe that regime. We just need a better model.

An analogy would be if you had a speed gun that measured up to 100 mph and a car went past at 150 mph. For an analogue gun, the needle would hit the stop at '100 mph', for a digital gun you'd get an 'Out of range' error message."

And what point are you imagining you are doing?

 

[Shemjaza]

Well here you go then, I'll use your own words:
"Physical laws are descriptive not prescriptive. What 'physical laws break down' means is that our normal mathematical descriptions of what is happening no longer work. IOW, our model of how the universe works fails to describe that regime. We just need a better model.

An analogy would be if you had a speed gun that measured up to 100 mph and a car went past at 150 mph. For an analogue gun, the needle would hit the stop at '100 mph', for a digital gun you'd get an 'Out of range' error message."

Excellent analogy.

With those two bits of information we wouldn't be able to confidently say what actual speed the car was going...

It would not be reasonable for the driver to claim:
"You can't tell for sure how fast I was going, so you can't prove I was over 55 mph."

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Well here you go then, I'll use your own words:
"Physical laws are descriptive not prescriptive. What 'physical laws break down' means is that our normal mathematical descriptions of what is happening no longer work. IOW, our model of how the universe works fails to describe that regime. We just need a better model.

An analogy would be if you had a speed gun that measured up to 100 mph and a car went past at 150 mph. For an analogue gun, the needle would hit the stop at '100 mph', for a digital gun you'd get an 'Out of range' error message."

Yes, those are my words - what is your point?

 

[pacomascarot]

View attachment 305421

These are some seals I saw in San Francisco. They could be sleeping on a beach or some rocks elsewhere in the bay, but these piers are more comfortable and convenient to them so they'll stay right here.

Down in La Jolla there's a small stretch of beach that one of the Scripps heirs deeded to the city back in the early 20th century as a "children's beach" where people could take their kids. It's a protected cove. Then at some point seals decided that it's a great place to pup. Thus began a surreal battle between wealthy southern Californians and wild animals. Resulting in wealthy Californians looking like some of the dumbest creatures to inhabit the planet.

 

[SkyWriting]

How does an article about psychedelic mushrooms have anything to do with evolution?

Perhaps a person could Google it?
-The Stoned Ape Hypothesis: Did Magic Mushrooms Influence
-The human brain doubled in power, very suddenly ... - Big Think
-How ancient humans used magic mushrooms to grow brains

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Perhaps a person could Google it?
-The Stoned Ape Hypothesis: Did Magic Mushrooms Influence
-The human brain doubled in power, very suddenly ... - Big Think
-How ancient humans used magic mushrooms to grow brains

Okay. Let's take a step back to the OP, specifically the last part of the last paragraph of the OP, which says:
" I understand the concept of gradual change over time (micro level of course), and following and adapting to a food supply and even conditions to a point, but progressively changing from a lower animal natural lifestyle in the ‘wilds,’ to a human one outside the wilds… well, help me understand (please, no this is how evolution works) how you think this could possibly happen, regardless of the time involved?"

How does an article about psychedelic mushrooms connect to that question?