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tampasteve

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Catholicism and Protestantism doesn't get to define the "tent".
Neither do you. But this really is not the thread for that discussion. People either agree and sign in here or they do not agree, and do not not sign in.
 
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visionary

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I agree with the rules of this forum. I'm here to ask a question to the Messianic Jews here.
Welcome to our corner of CF. May you be blessed in your time with us. May the Holy Spirit continue to guide you on your spiritual journey to get closer to Him.
 
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JMireles

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I have read and agree. Here is a bit of backstory. My bestfriend and his wife are both Messianic Jews. My wife and I are Christian Gentiles (though it's very possible that I have Jewish ancestors). There was a five year period where our friends were renting space from us, and we enjoyed a communal living arrangement during that time. We got into the habit of keeping the Sabbath, to include a Shabbat Seder every Friday, and keeping kosher. They have since moved into their own place, but we're all still friends. We still get together for Shabbat Seder, along with other major life events.

In the intervening time, I've engaged in intensive study and have determined that Jesus not only upheld the Moral Law, but that He demonstrated for all of us to see how to live by that Law. As such, my family keeps and honors all that He did. We are Torah observant in the areas that He upheld, but do recognize that our status as Gentiles does mean that there are certain areas where any observance on our part is purely voluntary (Acts 15). We freely acknowledge that the Moral Law is binding on all believers, whether they be Gentile or Jew, and that this is the standard by which we will all be judged.
 
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Jay Potter

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I have read and agree. Here is a bit of backstory. My bestfriend and his wife are both Messianic Jews. My wife and I are Christian Gentiles (though it's very possible that I have Jewish ancestors). There was a five year period where our friends were renting space from us, and we enjoyed a communal living arrangement during that time. We got into the habit of keeping the Sabbath, to include a Shabbat Seder every Friday, and keeping kosher. They have since moved into their own place, but we're all still friends. We still get together for Shabbat Seder, along with other major life events.

In the intervening time, I've engaged in intensive study and have determined that Jesus not only upheld the Moral Law, but that He demonstrated for all of us to see how to live by that Law. As such, my family keeps and honors all that He did. We are Torah observant in the areas that He upheld, but do recognize that our status as Gentiles does mean that there are certain areas where any observance on our part is purely voluntary (Acts 15). We freely acknowledge that the Moral Law is binding on all believers, whether they be Gentile or Jew, and that this is the standard by which we will all be judged.
I have read and agreed. Jmireles, I was very interested in your post after I just now registered. I too am a Gentile Christian with a years-long friendship with an Orthodox follower of Yeshua. I couldn't agree more on your comments on what is binding on all believers. Moreover, I am challenged by the task of all believers embrace Yochanon 17:20-23 as actually meaning something to strive for between Christian and Jewish followers in unity.
 
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JMireles

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There is a book I recently purchased that I'm slowly reading and I believe it's very relevant here. It is entitled "The Pauline Paradox" by 119 Ministry. I'm also reading "The Rabbi on the Mount" by Phil Weingart. Both deal extensively with the Law and how it pertains to Gentile believers.
 
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Jay Potter

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There is a book I recently purchased that I'm slowly reading and I believe it's very relevant here. It is entitled "The Pauline Paradox" by 119 Ministry. I'm also reading "The Rabbi on the Mount" by Phil Weingart. Both deal extensively with the Law and how it pertains to Gentile believers.
Thank you....I'll take a look at them.
 
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Shepherd Tony

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In the intervening time, I've engaged in intensive study and have determined that Jesus not only upheld the Moral Law, but that He demonstrated for all of us to see how to live by that Law. As such, my family keeps and honors all that He did. We are Torah observant in the areas that He upheld, but do recognize that our status as Gentiles does mean that there are certain areas where any observance on our part is purely voluntary (Acts 15). We freely acknowledge that the Moral Law is binding on all believers, whether they be Gentile or Jew, and that this is the standard by which we will all be judged.


The "moral law" is a concept that I have never understood.

I am not speaking out against Thomas Aquinas (he died in the 13th century and can not defend himself) nor the Roman Catholic Church, but frankly dividing the Torah into Civil, Moral, and Ceremonial is problematic at best, and may be much worse.

In the interest of brevity (difficult for me, ask my children!), I will illustrate with only one example.

Wayyiqra 19:19 (Leviticus) is pointed out as a ceremonial law.

19Guard My laws. Do not let your livestock mate with another kind. Do not sow your field with mixed seed. And do not put a garment woven of two sorts of thread upon you.

And is its own sentence in the Catholic numbering system we all use for the Bible chapter and verse.

But it is actually the second half of a single sentence in the Torah Scroll along with verse 18

18Do not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people. And you shall love your neighbour as yourself. I am יהוה.

So in the Torah Scroll for Wayyiqra (Leviticus), when translated into English, we would see:

"Do not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the children of your people. And you shall love your neighbour as yourself. I am יהוה guard My laws. Do not let your livestock mate with another kind. Do not sow your field with mixed seed. And do not put a garment woven of two sorts of thread upon you"

As you can see the flow makes more sense in the original. The end of 18 and the beginning of 19 are supposed to go together.

Now when we look at MattithYahu (Matthew) 22 we see Messiah being asked for the Greatest Commandment (Torah Mitzvoth - not Ten Commandments) what does he say:

36“Teacher, which is the great command in the Torah?”

37And יהושע said to him, “ ‘You shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind.’

38“This is the first and great command.

39“And the second is like it, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’

40On these two commands hang all the Torah and the Prophets.”

This is where He quoted from. The Greatest commandment (Along with the Shema in Debarim (Deuteronomy) 6. Smack dab in the middle of the "ceremonial verse" Messiah quotes the "Greatest commandment"!

This is one example of potential problems when applying Catholic understandings to Messianic worship and study.

Let us remember what Ya'aqob (James) the Messiah's brother said in chapter 2 of his epistle:

2:10For whoever shall guard all the Torah, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

or Messiah in the Sermon on the Mount in MattithYahu (Matthew) 5:

19Whoever, then, breaks one of the least of these commands, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the reign of the heavens; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens.

Breaking the Torah into sections is not spoken out in the Bible. In fact it is spoken against.

Please do not think I am judging, just mentioning something we as Messianic Believers need to think about.

Shalom
 
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visionary

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welcome... May you be blessed with a spiritual closeness to God that is more than you ever experienced. May you gain insights that draw you even closer to the one true God. May you be blessed in your spitiual journey with a peace that passes all understanding.
 
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