Are non-Jewish Christians commanded to keep the 7th Day Sabbath

[parousia70]

It's called a dual prophecy and here is the definition

Dulal Fulfillment is man made and taught nowhere in scripture.

Many prophecies in the Bible are dual.

Name one prophesy that scripture teaches is a DUAL prophesy.

God inspired many other prophecies with dual meanings.

Again, you've yet to demonstrate this claim from scripture.
Please do.
And why only Dual? why not triple? Quadruple? 10 fold? 100 fold?

End times have not come yet because Christ has not come!

So your position is that the end times BEGIN with the "2nd coming of Christ" and not a moment before?
Please show us where scripture teaches anything of the sort.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Dulal Fulfillment is man made and taught nowhere in scripture.


Name one prophesy that scripture teaches is a DUAL prophesy.



Again, you've yet to demonstrate this claim from scripture.
Please do.
And why only Dual? why not triple? Quadruple? 10 fold? 100 fold?



So your position is that the end times BEGIN with the "2nd coming of Christ" and not a moment before?
Please show us where scripture teaches anything of the sort.

End times is right before the second coming of Jesus.

Matthew 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will befamines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. 11 Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. 12 And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The end has not come yet

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 Butwoe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

26 “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[parousia70]

I never said that

Yes you did. Right here:

Jesus has not come yet so end times is not here yet

Your words, not mine.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes you did. Right here:

We are not at end time yet, but the warnings that Jesus gives shows we are getting a lot closer.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes you did. Right here:



Your words, not mine.

I can see how that would be confusing. I corrected it in my posts.

 

[parousia70]

We are not at end time yet, but the warnings that Jesus gives shows we are getting a lot closer.

Can you name one or two of those warnings that indicate to you we are getting a lot closer?

Again, the aposltes all believed and taught the end times had indeed come UPON THEM.

Do you believe the end times had come upon them the way they all believed and taght it had?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Can you name one or two of those warnings that indicate to you we are getting a lot closer?

Again, the aposltes all believed and taught the end times had indeed come UPON THEM.

Do you believe the end times had come upon them the way they all believed and taght it had?

Matthew 24:7 And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Do you believe everything is going to honkey dory right before Jesus comes?

 

[parousia70]

Matthew 24:7 And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

This all happened in the first century as well, to a worse degree than we are having today, so i'm ceretain you can understand why the Apostles all believed and taught that the end times had come upon them, because of Jesus' warnings that you referenced.

In Matthew 24, as you referenced, Jesus promises His apostles that they will have famines, earthquakes, wars and rumors concerning wars. This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero.

As for famines, Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies the famine there was so great! (we of course havent seen ANYTHING like that in our day)

Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

I'm sure you can agree it's no wonder the Apostles all believed and taught the end times had come upon them when they looked around and saw Jesus' warnings that you mentioned being fulfilled right before their eyes!

 

[Der Alte]

* * * You don't want the laws, just the promises but it doesn't work that way and that's why I and others here are trying to help you before it's too late. * * * We should prepare NOW for the Kingdom of Heaven.

Wrong! Instead of repeating the writings of EGW perhaps you should learn on your own what people like me are doing. I think I have said enough around here that you should realize I obey all the commandments specifically for me a gentile Christian. See e.g. Acts 15:1, 5, 1, 20-22, 15:24, 28-29-28, 21:24-26

Acts 15:1
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.​

The only requirement in this vs. is circumcision, nothing about the Sabbath.

Acts 15:5
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.​

The requirements stated in this vs. is circumcision and keep the law of Moses. Which would be difficult unless they were also given the law of Moses. No record of that.

Acts 15:10
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?​

Here Paul, a Jew, refers to the requirements of the Pharisees as "a yoke upon the neck of the disciples that the fathers were not able to bear."

Acts 15:20-21
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

The disciples listed only three requirements for gentile proselytes "abstain from pollutions of idols, fornication, things strangled and from blood."
No mention of Sabbath keeping. And no vs. 21 does not mean the proselytes would be attending synagogues. Paul is not so mixed up that he would call obeying the law of Moses a yoke that even the Jews could not bear and then say gentiles must attend synagogues where the Jews would be enforcing those very laws.

Acts 15:24
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

Note Paul says they gave no such commandment i.e. "You must be circumcised, and keep the law."

Acts 15:28-29
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.​

These three only requirements are stated twice but where is that command for gentiles to keep the Sabbath? Paul, Barnabas, Judas Barsabas and Silas, said "no greater burden than these [three only] necessary things."

Acts 21:24-25
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.​

vs.24 Paul preparing to take the Nazarite vow vs. 24-25 "you [Paul] yourself walk orderly, and keep the law. Concerning the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing," i.e. "keep the law."
And they repeat the three only requirements for gentiles "save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." Again three only requirement for gentiles. And once again no mention of Sabbath keeping for gentiles.

 

[Saint Steven]

I guess the real question is was the Sabbath a ceremonial law or a moral law?

Yes, that is a valid argument.
Where is the moral issue with "Sabbath-breaking"?
The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin.
Have you ever felt guilty for not observing the Jewish Sabbath?
I haven't. I suppose someone could lay a guilt trip on you.
A recruiting technique for these folks.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This all happened in the first century as well, to a worse degree than we are having today, so i'm ceretain you can understand why the Apostles all believed and taught that the end times had come upon them, because of Jesus' warnings that you referenced.

In Matthew 24, as you referenced, Jesus promises His apostles that they will have famines, earthquakes, wars and rumors concerning wars. This prophecy had special significance during that period of the great Pax Romana ("Roman Peace"), when the outbreak of these wars transpired: Claudius' Roman war with Britain/East Anglia; at least three Jewish insurrections against Rome prior to the 60s AD (one violently put down by Cuspius Fadus); the Jewish/Alexandrian revolt upon Caligula's death; Claudius declares martial law in Palestine after the Jewish insurrection at the death of Agrippa I; the Germanic tribes in present-day Belgium and Germany made perpetual trouble for the legions throughout the reign; a smoldering Balkan war was in continuous progress. As these conflagrations escalated, Rome started its own civil wars in 68-70 that nearly toppled the empire. As Tacitus writes, "Four princes [Galba, Otho, Vitellius, Domitian] killed by the sword; three civil wars, several foreign wars; and mostly raging at the same time. Favorable events in the East [the subjection of the Jews], unfortunate ones in the West. Illyria disturbed, Gaul uneasy; Britain conquered and soon relinquished; the nations of Sarmatia and Suevia rising against us; the Parthians excited by the deception of a pseudo-Nero.

As for famines, Acts 11:28 records a worldwide famine. Josephus reports famines in Jerusalem in the 60s AD which killed hundreds of thousands during the Jewish War (AD 66-70). There were accounts of infanticide and cannibalism (as foretold in Deuteronomy 28:53,57) -- Jewish women cooked and ate their babies the famine there was so great! (we of course havent seen ANYTHING like that in our day)

Concerning earthquakes, Seneca writes: "How often have cities in Asia, how often in Achaia, been laid low by a single shock of earthquake! How many towns in Smyrna, how many in Macedonia, have been swallowed up! How often has Paphos collapsed! Not infrequently are tidings brought to us of the utter destruction of entire cities" (Seneca Ad Lucilium Epistulae Morales, trans. Richard M. Gummere, vol. 2, 437). Josephus says of Jerusalem, "the city was besieged on both sides...there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds, with the largest showers of rain, with continued lightnings, terrible thunderings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth, that was in an earthquake. These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming" (Wars, 4:4:5).

I'm sure you can agree it's no wonder the Apostles all believed and taught the end times had come upon them when they looked around and saw Jesus' warnings that you mentioned being fulfilled right before their eyes!

I feel like I am on 50 first dates. Please see post #560

This had an application for the apostles and has an application for the future during the end times, right before Jesus comes.

Some things in Matthew 24 has yet to happen.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I guess the real question is was the Sabbath a ceremonial law or a moral law?

responded with...

Good question SF. According to the scriptures, all of God's 10 commandments give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. So all of God's 10 commandments are all moral laws including God's 4th commandment which is our duty of love to God. All of God's 10 commandments shown us our duty of Love to God in the first four commandments and our duty of love to our fellow man in the second six commandments. The ceremonial laws are those of the Levitical Priest hood , the Sanctuary laws, and all the laws for remission of sins under the old covenant that pointed to Christ as the Messiah and Savior as God's sacrifice for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36 and His work on our behalf in the Heavenly Sanctuary that the Lord pitched and not man based on better promises in the new covenant *Hebrews 8:1-6.

Someone else posted...

Yes, that is a valid argument.
Where is the moral issue with "Sabbath-breaking"?
The Holy Spirit convicts us of sin.
Have you every felt guilty for not observing the Jewish Sabbath?
I haven't. I suppose someone could lay a guilt trip on you.
A recruiting technique for these folks.

According to the scriptures, in times of ignorance God winks at *Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31. That is when we do not know the truth of God's Word, God does not hold up accountable for sin until He gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we choose to reject it in order to continue practicing known unrepentant sin (Acts of the Apostles 17:30-31; James 4:17). When God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word as we grow grow in His grace, he calls us to believe and follow what His Word says. According to the scriptures if we harden our heart and choose to reject Gods' Word in order to continue in what we have now learnt to be sin according to the scriptures there remains for us no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come according to Hebrews 10:26-31. If we harden our hearts to hearing and seeing Gods' Word there will be a time when we grieve Gods' Spirit and he will leave us *Ephesians 4:30; 1 Thessalonians 5:19 to our hardened hearts and sin. According to the scriptures sin is defined as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments and not believing and following God's Word *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11 and Romans 14:23 so Gods' 10 commandments give us the knowledge of what sin is when we break them according to the scriptures (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7). Only God's Word therefore is true and we should believe and follow them as it is God's Word that is the standard of what is true and what is not true that sanctifies us as we believe and follow them *John 17:17; 1 John 5:4. God's 4th commandment is a moral law of our duty of love to God and if we break it just like anyone of Gods' 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin according to the scriptures (James 2:10-11).

Take Care.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Wrong! Instead of repeating the writings of EGW perhaps you should learn on your own what people like me are doing. I think I have said enough around here that you should realize I obey all the commandments specifically for me a gentile Christian. See e.g. Acts 15:1, 5, 1, 20-22, 15:24, 28-29-28, 21:24-26

Acts 15:1
1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.​

The only requirement in this vs. is circumcision, nothing about the Sabbath.

Acts 15:5
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.​

The requirements stated in this vs. is circumcision and keep the law of Moses. Which would be difficult unless they were also given the law of Moses. No record of that.

Acts 15:10
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?​

Here Paul, a Jew, refers to the requirements of the Pharisees as "a yoke upon the neck of the disciples that the fathers were not able to bear."

Acts 15:20-21
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.​

The disciples listed only three requirements for gentile proselytes "abstain from pollutions of idols, fornication, things strangled and from blood."
No mention of Sabbath keeping. And no vs. 21 does not mean the proselytes would be attending synagogues. Paul is not so mixed up that he would call obeying the law of Moses a yoke that even the Jews could not bear and then say gentiles must attend synagogues where the Jews would be enforcing those very laws.

Acts 15:24
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:​

Note Paul says they gave no such commandment i.e. "You must be circumcised, and keep the law."

Acts 15:28-29
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.​

These three only requirements are stated twice but where is that command for gentiles to keep the Sabbath? Paul, Barnabas, Judas Barsabas and Silas, said "no greater burden than these [three only] necessary things."

Acts 21:24-25
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.​

vs.24 Paul preparing to take the Nazarite vow vs. 24-25 "you [Paul] yourself walk orderly, and keep the law. Concerning the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing," i.e. "keep the law."
And they repeat the three only requirements for gentiles "save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication." Again three only requirement for gentiles. And once again no mention of Sabbath keeping for gentiles.

How do you know how I learn? What a silly thing for you to say when you know nothing about how I study the Bible or scripture.

Not sure what’s up with all the personal attacks lately, but it’s really not how Christians should be acting towards each other.

These verses you posted say nothing about the 4th commandment being deleted and we should now keep Sunday as the day of worship.

We should also not take a passage and say “it does not say this” to find a way to delete something, especially a commandment of God, like it speaks for the whole bible. You’re free to believe what you want I shared many scriptures about God’s holy Sabbath day that is not nor will it ever be deleted according to God Exodus 31:16 to Isaiah 66:23. If you prefer to follow traditions over God’s commandments that’s your choice. Jesus is coming back soon enough and this will all get straightened out

God bless.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Jesus is coming back soon enough and this will all get straightened out
God bless.

The sad thing is however sis by this time (the second coming) it will be too late for many that were given Gods' Word and chose to reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin according to Matthew 7:21-23. My prayer is that none of us will be included in that group.

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The sad thing is however sis by this time (the second coming) it will be too late for many that were given Gods' Word and chose to reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin according to Matthew 7:21-23. My prayer is that none of us will be included in that group.

God bless

I know! More people should study the lesson of Noah’s ark. Many made fun of Noah and the majority did not believe. We are told Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.

All we can do is plant the seed and pray.

God bless I am off to read and get some sleep!

 

[Saint Steven]

Sounds like a Sabbatarian superiority complex.

 

[Servus]

And yet nothing in your post addresses anything relevant to the topic

That snarky comment was off topic as well.

 

[Servus]

Perhaps you should consider the following scriptures; Hebrews 8:10-12; John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 2:27. What do you think these scriptures mean Brian? Not everyone seeks to follow the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God. Jesus says in Matthew 15:3-9 those who knowingly do this are not worshiping God and John says the same people who do this do not know God in 1 John 2:3-4 and 1 John 3:6-9. Why do you think this is important for us to understand according to the scriptures written in Matthew 7:16-23?

Take care.

I don't think any of those verses mean that gentile Christians are commanded to keep the 7th day sabbath or anything else unorthodox.

 

[Servus]

Brian, I know you posted this to someone else again, so I hope you do not mind me making a comment as I see no truth in your post here or any reason why you have posted it. All you have provided here are your words and accusations unsupported by the evidence of scripture. All this of course without evidence to prove what your claiming is only a false accusations unsupported by any evidence. I am not sure why you cannot see this.

Now eisegetical interpretation of scripture means reading into the scriptures what the scripture does not say and does not teach. This is the opposite of exegetical interpretation of the scripture which is reading the meaning of scripture out of what the scripture says supported by the scripture contexts. I think in nearly every scripture in support of Sunday worship has been proven from the scriptures alone to be an eisegetical interpretation of scripture. If you do not believe me pick a scripture we have discussed here and I will link you to the post the proves where eisegesis (reading the interpretation into the scripture) has been used to support a claim for Sunday worship.

Yet no one here in this thread has provided any scripture evidence to make claims of eisegetical interpretation of scripture in regards to Gods 10 commandments including God's 4th commandment not being the standard in the new covenant for Christian living that gives us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to James if we break anyone of them we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11.

Now what is it that you claim is an eisegetical interpretation of scripture Brian? You may want to prove your claims here from the scriptures rather than make false accusations that are not truthful or consider the scriptures written in Matthew 7:1-5.

Take Care.

While what I said was addressed to someone else, it may as well have been addressed to you and the others, because you all use virtually word for word apologetics. The interpretation of scripture your denomination holds to regarding gentile Christians being commanded to keep the 7th day sabbath is unorthodox, that's a fact, not a falsehood. The rest of what you're saying is basically "our particular denominational doctrine isn't eisegetical, orthodox Christian doctrine is eisegetical".

 

[Servus]

Forgive me Brian I know this is to someone else but perhaps you may want to consider that not everyone seeks to follow what others are saying and that perhaps some seek to know God for themselves through His Word claiming His promises (Hebrews 8:10-12; John 14:26; John 16:13; John 7:17; John 8:31-36; 1 John 2:27). Where has anyone in this thread or elsewhere posted to you what EGW and Doug Batchelor has said or 3ABN? If no one has posted the writings or teachings of others why are you pretending that they have? Just because someone may believe something another person says does not mean they are aware of it or that what that person believe or does not believe is true or untrue. There is nothing hidden that shall now be revealed according to the scriptures. There is nothing that I can see in this thread that has been shared with you that is not scripture from Gods' Word. So what is it exactly that you do not believe?

Take Care.

The fact that you all use virtually word for word apologetics regarding a very particular denominational doctrine, is a clear indication that you've all been taught the same. And that what you've been taught most likely stems from the founder and author of that very particular denominational doctrine you and the others preach and try to get others to accept.