Biden Drops the Hammer on Unvaccinated

[Clizby WampusCat]

And I never said they didn't get treated, but if it's between someone that is vaccinated and someone that isn't, I'm pretty sure triage is going to say, "Yeah, the vaccinated is more likely to survive, they get priority,"

Well that is for the medical professionals to decide at the time. I the mean time lets figure out a way to not have to make that choice in the future. Something that you don't seem to want to solve.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Ah, only some life threatening externalities matter.

I don't understand what you mean?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

What part of we don't have the resources to treat these people do you not understand?

Then can we find a solution to the problem?

They are clogging ICUs to the point where people have been sent as far away as Connecticut.

We cannot treat them.

We do not live in an utopia where extra nurses, doctors and hospital space springs forth upon a whim. They have been stretched to their limits and beyond, medical professionals are reaching a breaking point and bailing out compounding the problem.

"Just treat them" is not an option. We cannot do that.

I never said that we should just treat them and magically they will be. I am saying lets try to treat them all and solve the problem of some not getting treated. Should not the goal be to treat everyone? We need to keep trying to convince the unvaccinated to get vaccinated, look at ways to treat everyone etc. I am advocating to try to do something about the situation. A lot of people here just want to give up let people go home and not get the treatment they may need. Why is this an acceptable outcome?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No, they do a perfect job of it themselves. They don't have to have voted for Trump at all to be enabling the fascist nationalism that encourages this kind of rampant individualism to the detriment of everyone else. The selfishness, the egomania, the delusions of grandeur or persecution, Trump just lit the fuse, this was a powder keg for decades that's just added more fuel over the years.

So you think that everyone that is unvaccinated fits into this category?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Sure, but this "should" is running headlong into the reality of a lack of resources in some areas. In them, some patients will go without being treated because there's no one left to do so.

I agree. All I am saying is that this should not be acceptable. Lets find a way to fix the problem without violating someone rights. Many here seem to advocate there is nothing we can do if they won't get vaccinated, so screw them. I just think that is unacceptable.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

By the time it gets to choosing who to triage, it is far too late for the vaccine to be effective.

And again, the question isn't punishing their choice. It would be a consequence that the unvaccainted on average have a worse outcome. So if there are limited resources, it makes sense that across a large number of patients, more vaccinated patients would be prioritized.

Ok, then why do you resist trying to change this reality? Why is the goal that we treat all people not a good goal to have?

 

[Desk trauma]

I don't understand what you mean?

That your position is inconsistent. If we’re supposed to appeal to others better nature to get them to stop placing others at risk and refrain from coercion why is it only applicable on this one issue?

 

[JacksBratt]

Not the only thing I hear about, I'm not a cynic and not focused on doom and gloom and the coming apocalypse like a significant subset of Christians do.

Pretty sure you don't know what science is or what theory means in the scientific context, which is not the same as in the vernacular.

Pretty sure no one is suggesting we give the covid vaccine to babies and the vaccines we do give to babies are VERY CAREFULLY measured, which is why there's need for data in regards to that for 12 and under getting this vaccine. It's not that it's dangerous in itself, it's that any vaccine given to children has to have a proper dosage versus an average adult.

Again, if you don't have the money, you can't promote a thing effectively.

The Novavax has been tested and is safe for infants. That was my point. It is very safe. Tested and proper trials... but.. all you here is Phiser and Moderna.

Oh, and another thing that is "taboo" to talk about is Ivermectin. It is being given in home kits to people in Ecuador by the government. It was used in India to stop the death toll there. WHO told India to stop using it and now the Bar in India is charging the doctor for WHO for telling them not to use Ivermectin.

 

[Vylo]

They would be entered into the data if the people responsible for doing so weren't dismissing what they are going through. It's the reason Ron Johnson gave them this opportunity to speak out. Even though they have spoken out, and you can hear them speak for themselves, you still say, "It has never happened, with any vaccine. And still with this one."
So even when the actual victims speak, you continue to deny.

Or maybe, hear me out, their stories are not real, and when looked into, they find that. Or their side effects don't merit noting, because they are looking for more significant ones.

 

[Vylo]

Then can we find a solution to the problem?

We did. It is called a vaccine mandate.

I never said that we should just treat them and magically they will be. I am saying lets try to treat them all and solve the problem of some not getting treated. Should not the goal be to treat everyone? We need to keep trying to convince the unvaccinated to get vaccinated, look at ways to treat everyone etc. I am advocating to try to do something about the situation. A lot of people here just want to give up let people go home and not get the treatment they may need. Why is this an acceptable outcome?

We don't have the resources. we have explained that at least a dozen times. sending them home without treatment is acceptable because this a self inflicted problem, that is also hurting others. The help is still available for them any time, they just have to take it.

 

[Vylo]

The Novavax has been tested and is safe for infants. That was my point. It is very safe. Tested and proper trials... but.. all you here is Phiser and Moderna.

Oh, and another thing that is "taboo" to talk about is Ivermectin. It is being given in home kits to people in Ecuador by the government. It was used in India to stop the death toll there. WHO told India to stop using it and now the Bar in India is charging the doctor for WHO for telling them not to use Ivermectin.

Because pfizer has FDA approval, and moderna has EUA

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

That your position is inconsistent. If we’re supposed to appeal to others better nature to get them to stop placing others at risk and refrain from coercion why is it only applicable on this one issue?

I never said appeal to their better nature. I said convince them it benefits themselves and others. It is different because it requires someone to put something in their bodies without their consent. Forcing them to do this is unethical.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

We did. It is called a vaccine mandate.

I know. That is unethical because it requires someone to put something in their bodies they do not want. So that solution is not an option.

We don't have the resources. we have explained that at least a dozen times. sending them home without treatment is acceptable because this a self inflicted problem, that is also hurting others. The help is still available for them any time, they just have to take it.

I know. My point has been that is happening but that is not acceptable. We need a solution that is ethical and can treat everyone. Why does no one here want to try to solve this problem? We are not going to hold people down and stab them so your solution may be the best solution but it will never get the results you want. So instead of giving up we need a different solution.

Do you want unvaccinated people to get care if they get sick?

 

[Vylo]

I know. That is unethical because it requires someone to put something in their bodies they do not want. So that solution is not an option.

It is definitely an option, and is fully ethical. I'm done coddling these people after what they've done. They can come back to reality or live outside society.

We need a solution that is ethical and can treat everyone. Why does no one here want to try to solve this problem?

We would love to solve it, but a solution that fits your parameters does not exist. without vaccination, cases and hospitalization will continue to explode. People will die as resources run out. We can simply let the treated be whoever happens to be lucky enough to get a bed, or the people who took proper precautions, I favor the latter.

Do you want unvaccinated people to get care if they get sick?

Not if it comes at the cost of those more responsible. They don't trust medical professionals, so why have them be treated by them?

 

[Desk trauma]

I never said appeal to their better nature. I said convince them it benefits themselves and others.

A distinction without a difference. If the issue is coercion is so awful, apply it to the things mentioned.

It is different because it requires someone to put something in their bodies without their consent. Forcing them to do this is unethical.

And it’s only an issue now but wasn’t with polio, small pox or the vaccines that were already mandatory because reasons.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It is definitely an option, and is fully ethical. I'm done coddling these people after what they've done. They can come back to reality or live outside society.

Unless you hold them down and stab them many will not comply. Do you advocate this? If not, then your solution, which is the best, will never reap the results you want. SO the practical thinkg to do is to find a way to treat everyone.

We would love to solve it, but a solution that fits your parameters does not exist. without vaccination, cases and hospitalization will continue to explode. People will die as resources run out. We can simply let the treated be whoever happens to be lucky enough to get a bed, or the people who took proper precautions, I favor the latter.

Then we find a way to make it exist.

Not if it comes at the cost of those more responsible. They don't trust medical professionals, so why have them be treated by them?

Because it s the ethical thing to do.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

A distinction without a difference. If the issue is coercion is so awful, apply it to the things mentioned.

Coercion is awful when you are requiring someone to put something in their bodies they don't want. You keep ignoring that distinction.

And it’s only an issue now but wasn’t with polio, small pox or the vaccines that were already mandatory because reasons.

Then maybe with those vaccines it should have been an issue. I am pro vaccines, I am not for forcing someone to take one or denying them healthcare because they did not take one.

 

[Vylo]

Coercion is awful when you are requiring someone to put something in their bodies they don't want. You keep ignoring that distinction.

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't care anymore. These folks are killing people. They are ignoring reality. They've put my family members through torture. I'm over it. They've had months to come back to the real world and turned it down, it is about time for reality to bite them back.

 

[Vylo]

Then we find a way to make it exist.

Things do not exist simply because we will them to. They have to have some semblance of reality. You keep harping on solutions, but offer none. I offer them. You may not like them, but they will address the problem at hand.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I'm not ignoring it, I just don't care anymore. These folks are killing people. They are ignoring reality. They've put my family members through torture. I'm over it. They've had months to come back to the real world and turned it down, it is about time for reality to bite them back.

The real word is that the unvaccinated are not killing people. Covid is. Your uncaring attitude is noted. Thanks for the discussion.