Biden Drops the Hammer on Unvaccinated

[TLK Valentine]

You're the one who said:


So whether it's a company forcing people to do their will, or a government doing it, it all comes down to controlling individuals by removing their choices.

Got a plan to do something about it?

 

[Vylo]

That's because many of the ones who have significant side effects never make it past 6 weeks to tell the story.

that would be documented. it isn't, because it didnt happen.

 

[Vylo]

It's entirely true, and I could point you to many examples, each of which you'd dismiss as "anecdotal".

let me guess, your examples are from vaerys, the dame place where people claim the vaccine turned them into the hulk?

 

[Aldebaran]

that would be documented. it isn't, because it didnt happen.

The survivors would disagree with you.
Start at 13:00

 

[muichimotsu]

Sorry, I believe that you are a skeptic. In these times when all you hear about is Covid this and Covid that... an endless stream of "science" advice and theory... a new tried and tested vaccine that is safe for new born babies to 100 year olds would be easily thrust into the news cycle.

Not the only thing I hear about, I'm not a cynic and not focused on doom and gloom and the coming apocalypse like a significant subset of Christians do.

Pretty sure you don't know what science is or what theory means in the scientific context, which is not the same as in the vernacular.

Pretty sure no one is suggesting we give the covid vaccine to babies and the vaccines we do give to babies are VERY CAREFULLY measured, which is why there's need for data in regards to that for 12 and under getting this vaccine. It's not that it's dangerous in itself, it's that any vaccine given to children has to have a proper dosage versus an average adult.

Again, if you don't have the money, you can't promote a thing effectively.

 

[muichimotsu]

Then the answer is to keep trying not to give up. We have the same goal to get everyone that can vaccinated. Your solution seems to be to call people stupid and tell them we will not care for you if you are not vaccinated. My solution is to push hard at convincing people to get vaccinated.

Calling them stupid is not even the general goal I'd have. Don't give them the attention they keep craving out of narcissism and egomania and let them dig their own graves. I'm done trying to talk to those that won't listen, it's a waste of my time and energy.

Pushing hard doesn't work against a brick wall and some are so deluded, it's worse than that. Pick the targets selectively, to use a somewhat blunt military metaphor, don't just assume everyone is going to listen and don't waste time with those who are too far down the QAnon rabbit hole. Let them take the rope they keep gathering and hang themselves, it's the free market and "freedom" they preach so hard about, why not show them how faulty it is?

 

[muichimotsu]

You're the one who said:


So whether it's a company forcing people to do their will, or a government doing it, it all comes down to controlling individuals by removing their choices.

Not all choices are equal, that's the problem in your thinking: people don't get to do whatever they want absolutely in a civil society.

Or do you not think rights matter except in how you can use them rather than being protective in nature as well? Negative and positive liberty, look it up

 

[muichimotsu]

Never mentioned fatalism. I never said anything about absolute autonomy. Never said anything about inaction. Never called myself rational.

What I have said is that we should not force people to take vaccines and we need to figure out how to care for everyone that is sick. I believe these are achievable.

No one's saying we should force them in the way you're insinuating. Giving a basic consequence through the free market is not forcing when it is not unreasonable to request such things for the basis of public health: Supreme Court has probably rarely, if at all, dissented with the basis of the 1905 (before the pandemic that killed less people that have died now in a less advanced situation medically)

We cannot conceivably do that with people being this selfish: consequences and a sense of accountability are essential or nothing changes. We don't coddle idiocy, that just enables it, same as we don't encourage a spoiled petulant child's tantrums, we led them cry themselves hoarse and learn a lesson.

I don't wish death on anyone, but when it happens by their own idiocy, you don't see me being nearly as sympathetic as for those who took precautions and died because of the irresponsible actions of others.

 

[muichimotsu]

Notice the question ark? I was asking you not straw manning you.

Ok, so because of tis we don't treat people?

If a person needs treatment we should figure out how to care for them no matter their decisions.

No, because of this, we don't give priority to the unvaccinated that are willful about it versus those who have legitimate reasons they cannot.

If the situation allows it, but that isn't always the case and isn't going to be until this virus kills enough people that the beds open up

 

[Vylo]

The survivors would disagree with you.
Start at 13:00

So all people who are alive and healthy I'm seeing. and so few that it isn't significant, and unverified from a random video.

So as I was saying no significant side effects.

 

[muichimotsu]

Kim Jong Un's policies work too. He wouldn't still be in power if his policies didn't work.

Yeah, I'm sure the country that has half the population of South Korea is doing great. Trump also exaggerated numbers to act like he was succeeding: only difference, people are realizing how wrong he was.

 

[muichimotsu]

Even better idea: Government backs off and stops telling people how to live.

So...just admit you're an anarchist then? Or a Christian dominionist even, just take that mask off.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

It isn't simply a matter of them not deserving it, it is a matter of it running out because they literally are denying reality.

No matter why they are not vaccinated does not mean we should not try to treat them. This is my point.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Driving sober is the safest option but let’s not force people to do it, just try to convince them.

Not dumping poison into the rivers is the best option but let’s not force people , try to convince them.

Maintaining sanity food preparation is best but let’s not force people, try to convince them.

Oh my. I am not against regulation or laws that protect people. I am against forcing people to take something into their body they do not want to.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

They have had some of the most accomplished people in all of medicine tell them that vaccination works.

The wealthy have tried to hoard the vaccine for themselves in the early days.

The president THEY supported fast laned vaccine development, and then got the vaccine EVEN AFTER HIS OWN INFECTION. he announced this publicly. His vice president got the vaccine publicly.

We have more data on these vaccines than any others in history

We have a history of NO significant side effects for ANY vaccine in all of history past 6 weeks. We are at 10 MONTHS.

We have emergency rooms and ICUs clogged with 95-100% unvaccinated people, despite them making up less than half of the population.

If none of that convinces them, nothing will. The time to "convince" is over, because these folks are living in an alternate reality.

This is an example of poor thinking that will never lead to problems being solved. Lets try to solve the problem of people refusing to be vaccinated in an ethical way or find a better way so we can treat everyone.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Forcing is a strong word. But look at how well Delta Airline's policy about employee vaccination worked. If we're talking about the most effective way, no need to discount ways that work.


One possible non-vaccine-mandate approach to get enough health care workers so that everyone is treated when they get sick. I mean, I don't have any real practical answers to how to manufacture a bunch of nurses and doctors out of thin air, but that seemed to be the best alternative if effective ways of getting more people vaccinated are off the table.

If by effective you mean coercion then I am against that. Telling someone to put something into their body they don't want or else they get no medical treatment is coercion and unethical. Your frustration or anger towards them does not count as a good reason.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Calling them stupid is not even the general goal I'd have. Don't give them the attention they keep craving out of narcissism and egomania and let them dig their own graves. I'm done trying to talk to those that won't listen, it's a waste of my time and energy.

Pushing hard doesn't work against a brick wall and some are so deluded, it's worse than that. Pick the targets selectively, to use a somewhat blunt military metaphor, don't just assume everyone is going to listen and don't waste time with those who are too far down the QAnon rabbit hole. Let them take the rope they keep gathering and hang themselves, it's the free market and "freedom" they preach so hard about, why not show them how faulty it is?

You are still lumping all the unvaccinated into one group of right wing Trumpies. That is not the reality. It is easy to dismiss them if you can all of label them as quacks huh.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No one's saying we should force them in the way you're insinuating. Giving a basic consequence through the free market is not forcing when it is not unreasonable to request such things for the basis of public health: Supreme Court has probably rarely, if at all, dissented with the basis of the 1905 (before the pandemic that killed less people that have died now in a less advanced situation medically)

We cannot conceivably do that with people being this selfish: consequences and a sense of accountability are essential or nothing changes. We don't coddle idiocy, that just enables it, same as we don't encourage a spoiled petulant child's tantrums, we led them cry themselves hoarse and learn a lesson.

I don't wish death on anyone, but when it happens by their own idiocy, you don't see me being nearly as sympathetic as for those who took precautions and died because of the irresponsible actions of others.

Really? The left coddles idiocy all the time. Look at our president and vice president.

Anyway, we will never agree on this.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

No, because of this, we don't give priority to the unvaccinated that are willful about it versus those who have legitimate reasons they cannot.

If the situation allows it, but that isn't always the case and isn't going to be until this virus kills enough people that the beds open up

I never said the unvaccinated get priority over anyone.

 

[muichimotsu]

This is an example of poor thinking that will never lead to problems being solved. Lets try to solve the problem of people refusing to be vaccinated in an ethical way or find a better way so we can treat everyone.

We can't conceivably treat everyone because America's healthcare system is so broken with cutthroat capitalism, it'd rather save money than save lives and put people into debt instead of helping them

You can't generalize the idea of free healthcare as then leading to the government being able to dictate anything, because that's a slippery slope fallacy on its face based on paranoia that this situation is anything like actual oppression when a vaccine IS for the public good, not against it like the disinformation spreading worse than the virus.